BrillKids Forum

I have a 4 year old, 3 year old and 1 year old.   I have been doing a lot of research in different curriculum and methods. Classical, Charolotte Mason, Calvert, etc. 

I have definitely decided that I prefer a structured environment.  I am not into the whole let the child guide you because my kids would guide me into a million different directions at one time.  That would drive me crazy.

I am currently reading through "The Well-trained mind" and I do like its structure.   However, for science, I am preferring "Building Foundations of Scientific Understand" by Dr. Nebel.  It however doesn't follow the classical methodology.   I am probably not going to follow the math either as its too slow for me. 

I do like the reading, writing, grammar, and history.  I think limiting science to the history timeline is a bit limiting which is how the "Well trained mind" organizes it.   

I wonder though if the classical method is limited overall by its methodolgy of grammar, logic and rhetoric stage.  Its my only hesitation.  I would ask in the "well trained mind" forum, but they generally don't work with accelerated methods or early learners (for example Jones Geniuses that states your child could be doing algebra as early as 3rd grade).  The classical method saves algebra for the logic stage when children are cable of thinking abstractly (according to "well trained mind".   However, I was under the impression that children could think abstractly earlier than sixth grade (which is when the logic stages begins).   

If you read this book, I would like to know your take on it.  If you are preparing your curriculum for your young early learners in the later years, what direction are you heading in?  Is the classical method for you or is there another approach that works for you?  What works for you and why it works if you home school older children already?

Thanks for any input.

I've been looking into Charlotte Mason, too. I love the idea of literature-based learning (being something of a bookworm myself), though I do think that no one method really gives what I want for my son :D

I am currently using a mixture of EL methods and Montessori (the latter being very slow paced but I do think it helps him put all the facts he has learned into place and properly understand them). I plan to add a CM-style literature based curriculum once he is reading and understanding well (probably around 6) but continue with a more fast-paced maths and science program.

I do believe in following the child to some degree. I was one of those children this would have really benefited - I spent most of high school doing the mimimum homework so that I could focus on learning whatever language/time period/science had caught my interest and really just failed in learning anything properly :( That is one of the benefits of homeschooling - we can get the 'necessary' stuff out of the way in half a day and leave the whole afternoon for child-led learning/fun!

The more I read about all these different methods the more I tend to use an eclectic approach. In the early years, until 6 years, without doubt I will use Doman, Montessori and Shichida methods. Slowly, I would adapt to other methods for different streams like WTM and CM for Language Arts and History; Classical methods for languages; Problem-solving based programs for Math; Inquiry based programs for STEM, etc. Btw, I will not be homeschooling just after-schooling.

We are doing eclectic and to be honest I think this is the route most homeschoolers go in the endeven if they mostly follow a learning style in the end all homeschooling is individualised to the family itself - ie we do what works. I follow the classical approach when it suits me, do unit studies when I know they will work well, make up my own thing for both reading and writing for now since the EL means the gap between reading and writing is larger than normal (she writes at a level way below what she can read because of fine motor skills not having caught up yet) I follow a few math curricula but move on as needed and science I plan to follow BFSU when it arrives. History we were using SOTW and will continue when the book turns up again (it went missing recently)

I would say... Ours is eclectic secular classical. With accelerated maths.


For science we plan to use BFSU initially. But I am doing it  in a classical way. James is currently 2 and right now we are going through the first book. Next year the 2nd book and by the time he is 4-5 we will be doing the 3rd book.
We are lightly touching on each of the subjects. Mainly introducing the bigger concepts by reading books correlating to each chapter. In a few years, when James is 6,7,8 we will be revisiting the BFSU books 1,2,3 and we will be going more in depth. He will be journalling and doing experiments. And the second time around he will be reading the books that I read to him, by himself.
Once we have done the 2 rounds of BFSU we will then move onto a higher level of science. I am not sure what yet. But something that expands on the already established foundation that he will have. Oh and it will certainly involve more writing.

Math we are accelerating. He is just going to go through several programs at his own speed. He is currently doing Kindergarten level math. But we are currently drawing from several programs and playing a lot. I am not sure if we will stick with Right start, Miquon, Singapore, MEP, or maybe Saxon. Or even Khan Academy... I will figure out what works best for James in a few years when we have a better idea of his learning style. Right now it is just slow exposure and lots of play with a smattering of workbooks. I loved work books and text books for math and I myself would probably have loved Saxon. But there is no guarantee James will.

Reading has no formal instruction. James is a sight word reader but we do some phonics on the side. I want him to be able to read phonetically, but it is a struggle for him to blend and retain fluency and comprehension. . We are at a point that James can read easy books with a little assistance. He is picking up new words rapidly and I think he is intuiting phonics, but it could be just because he knows all his phonics, blends and digraphs.
He will continue to read on a variety of subjects. I read to him, he reads on his own. We are reading abridged classics,  we read geography, history etc. In several years we will revisit these things that we have read and I will have James read more information and write about what he is reading. When he is older he will move into more advanced living books.

We love Story of the World for history right now. And we read from the What you ___ grader needs to know series.

In a few years we will start formal journalling. Grammar and vocabulary  will be instructed through that as needed. (I never was given any formal grammar instruction and i was able to receive HD when i was doing my ancient history/philospohy major) i just read and wrote a lot. Perfect practice makes perfect. I know kids that can ace grammar exams but can't formulate a paragraph. Worrysome. So James will do lots of writing. :) writing for science, writing for history, writing for literature, and of course creative writing. And I will provide feedback.

Music art and physical education I think are important also. James is doing Little Muscisian right now and will receive a violin for his third birthday. If James does not take to a Muscial instrument there will be no pressure. But he will learn music appreciation and music theory. 
We love the draw write now books, and might do mini masters or tskmething similar for art appreciation.
James will be doing team sports, maybe gymnastics at some point. Swimming, running, or what ever sport is available seasonally. Dance is also an option also.

Even though we are not homeschooling, I do like what the school does with the cycle 1 kids. They give the kids a work agenda so to speak on it is a list of academic tasks of which they need to complete they tick it off when each task is done. They are allowed to choose when they do each task and the teacher facilitates and make sure each task gets done.

I think it might be a great way for homeschoolers to give the kids 'freedom in a controlled environment' and hopefully end the battle of this must get done right now and spending 15minutes battling to get the task done.

Anyhoo Just an idea

Corkersforlife I know a huge number of kids who can think abstractly well before 6th grade. Both my girls can and I have never thought to test Jaykob but I am quite sure he could too. I base this on the random comments he makes while listening to the radio. I cannot believe what he interprets from the adds at times!
I certainly wouldn't wait that long to introduce algebra. oh just a thought most of the kids who can think abstractly also have a great sence of humor. So slip some joke books and riddles into your program.
I only after school and so I have a bit more flexibility. I can skip the bits I find boring  :biggrin:
We use story of the world ( in audio! I HIGHLY recommend the audio!) all of my kids LOVE it and request it often. As far as I am concerned that covers history! Never was a big fan of history  ;)
OFr math we use Saxon, IXL and , MEP and a very colorful $5 math book from Kmart. Different approaches for different kids  :yes: But I do insist on some math, and I insist it is a complete curriculum as I just havnt yet seen any of my kids really challenged in math at school and what they do do, they don't do enough of for mastery.
For geography we use visual world geography, montossori apps and utube clips. My kids love maps so this is never a chore for them.
For everything else WE READ! The kids all read ALOT. I had no idea just how much they actually did read until I tried to do a proper reading log. Wow what an effort! Anyway now I know I am careful to ensure a large and fresh selection of interesting fiction AND NON fiction is available all the time. I also stretch their reading ability by expecting a daily effort at a book of my choice ( with some consultation :biggrin: ) that is a bit tricky for them. Other wise I find they all just read easy books all day every day! 
They often find themselves in the middle of a unit study without any intention on their part. One book strikes and interest so I jump on board and provide more on the topic. Thank goodness for my library card!
I slide in every opportunity I can. Educational TV, new apps, silk worms, farm visits, cooking, museums, art galleries, holiday programs...so many options for learning if you remember to spark and interest first and follow up after.

I hope to be homeschooling when my 2 year old hits age 6 - just have to convince my husband!  (And then close my ears to the horror of my parents and sisters.)  So I have a while to decide, but I'm considering a few options.

I will incorporate a few ideas from Charlotte Mason in whatever I choose: 15 minute lessons for young students, afternoons spent unschooling (I couldn't do it all day but I think we can everything I require in the mornings and then set them free), literature-based learning using living books instead of textbooks, and narrations.  But I want a little more structure.

One (FREE!) option is to use the Core Knowledge Sequence (http://www.coreknowledge.org/the-k-8-sequence) and the library to develop unit studies.  I would also use MEP to help with math (http://www.cimt.plymouth.ac.uk/projects/mep/default.htm).  I like unit studies because they let you get into a topic deeply and have lots of fun with it.

But though the CKS is more rigorous than our public school, it's not as challenging as Classical education, and I want to raise my kids to be hungry for challenges.  I feel that Classical education really does teach people how to learn, so that they know they can learn anything.  I'm about to reread WTM (I last read it before my oldest was born) and I'll see if I still like it.  I might only use it for some areas. 

I LOVE Korrale4kq's idea about using BFSU classically; I think I'll do that (karma for you!).  I also liked nee1's idea on the teaching toddler maths thread about using "Marshmallow Math" until she's ready for Saxon 5/4 and 6/5, which have a free download link in that thread too.  So once we're done with that, maybe around age 8, I'll decide where to go next (algebra?).  I have a lot of "fun" math to do as well, but at age 6 she'll be expected to sit down and do a page of problems from Saxon daily.  I have "The Writing Road to Reading" and will use it to teach spelling (since she'll already be reading).  And I plan to listen to "Story of the World" with my kids and probably the "Classical Conversations" memory work CDs, just as background in the afternoons.  What else is there?  Art and Music might be from the Core Knowledge Sequence, unless I come up with something better.  Those are resources I've already planned on, but I do want a unifying agent, either classical edu or CKS.

At age six, I think I'll expect the following 15 minute lessons daily: Saxon math, fun math, spelling, me reading a classic that's too hard for her (and written narrations), reading a challenging book to me (and written narrations), BFSU (keeping a journal), some form of history/geography (also with a journal), art or music.  That's two hours of 15 minute lessons.  I may add in more or change this when I reread WTM, or if I decide to do CKS for everything.  But I still want to finish everything in the morning (3 hours) so the rest of the day can be free.

Thank you for this thread, I've really enjoyed reading everyone's responses.  I suppose I'll be mostly eclectic too.

I have read "Well Trained Mind", and I have heard Bauer speak a few times.  She is really amazing.  I liked her book, and will probably do a lot of her ideas.  I do have to say that for being a minister's wife, her curriculum is surprisingly devoid of, well religion.  That may or may not be what you want, but that was a turn-off for me personally.  But I like the classical approach overall.

Bauer went to college early, and she doesn't recommend it.  I have sort-of been from the same camp because of her attitude towards it, but after reading some of our recent threads, I have changed my mind.  In truth, I always wanted to go to college early myself, but it wasn't an option for me.  If there is one thing I have learned from EL, it's to not hold back learning material when the kids are ready.  But I do like the trivium idea.

Along the classical model, I'm actually leaning more to the Thomas Jefferson Education method.  (learning through mentors)  I have a lot of peers in my valley that do it, and I like the focus on building character that it has.

In truth, my kindergartener hasn't really learned how to do "deliberate practice" yet, but we're going to dig into it very soon.  EL is relatively easy, and I've started to rest on my laurels.  It's time for me to dig in, and rise to the challenge of teaching my "gifted" kid.  He needs it!

I also have looked a little into Unit Studies, which is nice for lots of kids, and what one book called "the contest method", where you find contests and events like science fairs, and let your curriculum revolve around that.

I don't know!  I haven't found my groove yet.  Thank you again, everyone!

Unit studies interested me to, and I like the idea of lapbooks.   Here is the thing I like the discipline of the classical method.   It prepares you for a life of being able to study independently especially in college. Here is what worries me:  Does the classical method take all the fun out of learning?  Or is all the frills and bells of unit studies and lapbooks take away from creating a true love of learning?  I am still contemplating this...I would love to know the thoughts of others.

As far as going to college early, there is the option of AP exams that you can take to earn college credit in high school.  There are over thirty course options from history to calculus to several science subjects.  That could be a route (way, way, way in the future for me).  Of course the forums I have been lurking on do not have children starting math as early as on this forum, so I really don't know how that is going to work. 

Love everyone's ideas.  Thanks for sharing.

I am not a fan of unit studies... At least the thematics that younger kids do. There is a lot of fiddly craft stuff and very little content.
I do like lapbooks. I plan to make them with James as he gets older. I don't consider them a way to learn content. I like to get content from books, videos and discussion. But I think lap books are a great way to review. I started making a Story Of the World Lapbook and we read through each little section and then we talk more about it. But making the Lapbook taught me very little.

Cockers do a search for classical conversation memory work lap books. I have seen quite a few nice ones. And there is one for purchase that I might get if we do more CC.

As to your question about classical education being boring I personally don't think so. You can still make it lots of fun as you learn each stage. Grammar stage you can still teach the content with games, songs, stories, videos. And the children learn a little about a lot of subjects. They already have foundation vocabulary when they revisit the subject again during the logic stage. I like that with classical education the enjoyment is on the learning itself. I think many people want to learn more about something if they have some background knowledge of it. I know I do. The more I learn about something the more I want to learn. Then this goes off in learning tangents.
Maybe I am an oddity.

I am not sure what you see as unit studies, Korrale... I have seen some kindergarten and preschool "packs" which are probably considered unit studies that I am not so keen on as it simply seems a way to spend money and get a picture of something specific on every learning activity. However I have also done unit studies with my DD where she has learnt a lot - but then I cover quite broad topics - for examples - "plants" or "water" where we can discuss photosynthesis, buy plants and plant vegetables as well as read endless books about the topic and watch videos or for water discuss the water cycle, do various water experiments, swim, talk about the uses of water and where it goes after we bath etc - I have found if the topic/unit is borad enough then a tremendous amount can be learnt. However I use unit studies as extras and still do Math, Language Arts and Writing as separate subjects. I also only do unit studies when it suits me and when there is a suitable topic for it.

Interesting, I have never seen a unit-study product, although it doesn't surprise me that they're out there.  There's a product for everything these days!

Growing up, my family's homeschool did a lot of fun unit studies.  For example, when we studied medieval history, we found and sang medieval music, we made hodge-podge costumes, the boys made foam swords (a habit they still continue!), we found math problems with a medieval twist, we ate medieval food, etc, etc, etc.  It was a lot of fun- some of my favorite homeschool memories were of our unit studies.  The older kids did age-appropriate research and papers, younger kids had reading assignments on their level, and the tiny children learned by the general atmosphere the unit studies created.  It was always fun to immerse ourselves in another culture as a family.  Mostly we had our own math, spelling, and other core subjects individually, but the big stuff was done as a family.

I'm now curious to see what kind of packs are available, but I don't think I would want to use one.  We always checked out a slew of books on the topic from the library to use as our "base camp".  Unit studies can be amazing, but they are also a lot of work!  We didn't do them that often as a result, but when we did, we did it in style, and it was a great bonding experience for my siblings and I.  Dad liked to be involved in the meal portions of our studies too!  When I said it was good for lots of kids, I'll clarify by saying it's good for big families.  It can be hard to keep up with every child's individual needs educationally, and doing unit studies can help by letting the parent(s) focus in on one topic, and then teaching it on many levels.

I am only familiar with the unit studies for younger children up to 3rd grade that incorporate reading, writing, science, history, math. A lot of public school use them. The youngest of children do a lot of coloring, cutting, pasting, folding skill building.
The library has many books on these. And pininterst had many also. Scholastic makes packs. I don't mind them as a fun supplement, how Tamsyn did them,  but I have no found and unit studies that are a comprehensive program. But I have not really looked.
Personallh I like my subjects separate, and I like building foundations and moving in a sequence. I don't like skipping around unit studies from penguins, to Little House on the Prarie, to Autumn, to Gingerbread cookies, to pirates. Or whatever available unit study piques my childs interest. If there were a program of comprehensive unit studies instead of randomly assorted areas of interest I might consider it.

I have heard FIAR is a good one. But I am not sure how much math and science is incorporated.

I did find an interesting article that is inline with my personal philopsphy and says it much better than I do.

The beauty of homeschooling though is the we are doing it for our kids. And who knows in 10 years we might be well into unit studies. Only time will tell.

I thought I'd weigh in on this subject since I've done it once all the way through and am about to do it again.

All of you are already homeschooling. Homeschooling is merely educating at home. If you are doing it after school then it is merely an issue of time not of activity. Early learning is home education at it's finest. I read a study  on what makes a successful math student. Not just one that does well on tests but ends up in the field of math. They looked at IQ, academic preschools, math education in school, daycare setting, education of parents, how much money parents made etc. The two most important factors were: whether the mother spent time teaching math in the early years and two whether the mother was Indian. Why? Evidently Indian mothers take math very seriously and their children are comfortable with numbers. What moms are doing at home is more important than almost anything else - provided she is teaching.

We used a classical approach with my son. I read the WTM - it is fine, but it's actually more accelerated than classical. Classical education as defined today is really a methodology. It tells you what to teach and when to teach it. I'm not sure I buy into how Dorothy Sayers (Read Recovering the Lost Tools of Learning) linked these stages (The Trivium) with child development. If you want to suggest these as loose guidelines, then ok - but as rigid guidelines - not so much. Especially for early learners...it changes the ball game completely. You will never be able to follow the curriculum guidelines of the WTM. Your child is going to blast through those.

When thinking about how to approach this - and if you really want to understand classical education, not neo-classical which is we are talking about today - then I'd recommend the book "A History of Education in Antiquity". The classical approach that we are supposed to be emulating isn't as neat and tidy and many current writers would have you think. It is a dry academic book, but it is an eye opener. The author goes into why the Greeks and Romans did certain things and then how education remained alive in the middle ages and how children were taught.

I think Charlotte Mason is classical in her approach and more classical than many current pushers of classical curriculum. You really should read her writing and not just what others say about her. She would not approve of Early Learning or the methodologies employed. However, she was into brain training/memory training as were most of those in antiquity.

I am a fan of classical education because it gets results. I am a fan of Charlotte Mason in terms of approach - ridding yourself of worksheets as much as possible, busywork, etc. I am not a fan of lapbooks merely because so much time and effort goes into making them that it seems a waste by the time you are finished. We have used narration and notebooking extensively as a means to determine what my son is learning. It helps him determine what he find important. We will be doing the same with my LO. Notebooking really does solve lots of issues.

For writing we are using the progymnasmata model. We will start in kindergarten with narration and work our way up through high school combined with narration/notebooking this is plenty of writing. You can solve the problem of tedium of classical education (there shouldn't be any if you are using real books) by giving a certain amount of time each week to let a child pursue his/her own interests. If that is directed in the beginning - this is a great opportunity to teach a child to teach himself. Which should be one of the end goals.

Other books I recommend when thinking about classical education: Climbing Parnassus: A New Apologia for Greek and Latin, Poetic Knowledge: The Recovery of Education, The Great Tradition: Classic Readings on What It Means to Be an Educated Human Being, Leisure: The Basis of Culture, and Mortimer Adler's Six Great Ideas.

I love your posts Sonya!  I have been secretly waiting for your point of view.  I knew I was missing something on the classical approach but I couldn't put my finger on it.  I needed some direction.  I will definitely be taking a look at those books and all the new terminology.  Maybe I will find what I am looking for.  I have heard a lot about notebooking too.  I had almost forgot about it while diving into the WTM. 

Knowing what you know now (to Sonya), how will your approach to educating your LO differ from your older child?  Is logic something you will be doing from the very beginning?  Let's say if we could peek into the day of your child when they are maybe in 3rd grade (if you have thought that far), what would it be like?  I must confess that I have thought that far. 

I need long term goals (even if those goals change slightly) in order to give my short term goals directions.   This is of course why I am contemplating it right now.   Currently, I have my kids' curriculum for the year already mapped out, so I am thinking of next year when they will both be ready to have a more formal and ridged schedule (for their age group that is).  My children need consistency or they will take advantage of my kindness (lol), so I prefer to be ready with a general consistent idea of the future. 

I don't want the fact that I haven't defined my educational philosophy to affect how I direct my child, so I realize the importance of doing my homework now (although I feel I should have done this a long time ago).  I am trying to define my educational philosophy, and I love hearing about what worked for those who have done it and brought up successful children.  So thanks again for sharing!

Yes, Thank you Sonya!   :yes:

@ Cokers4life,

This is going to sound snotty, but I assure you it is not. You are a first generation college graduate - that means you are too dumb to know what you don't know. I can say this because I too am a first generation college graduate. I have a very expensive degree but a really crappy education. So when I started out I happened across an article on Classical Education and Dorothy Sayers essay on Recovering the Lost Tools of Learning. I recently had gotten this thing called the internet in my home and found some resources on what a whole bunch of curriculum providers were calling classical. I wanted a good education for my child - he was 2 at the time and I was raring to go.....ahhhh.  :tongue: I have some great material to help you get what you are missing -  if you want I can email you a list. At this point, I have realized that there is a whole lot of stuff I just don't know about.

My big mistakes:

1. Not reading Charlotte Mason soon enough. She was poo-pooed by many in my circle of influence. So I didn't bother. I don't do that anymore,

2. Sticking with Saxon Math way longer than I should have. This one thing caused a 4 year battle in my family that left many wounds - most are healed now but there are some scars. If you read the Moshe Kai thread...yep, that was us and a whole bunch of other folks I know.
 
3. Not demanding perfection from the very beginning. I was harder than most parents I knew, but not hard enough. In reading Charlotte Mason - I realized it would have been better to demand 4 perfect M's rather than a worksheet filled with pretty good M's. Once a child can do a task it should be done well, a parent should never be slack in this area. This does more for a child than anything else. It will teach him diligence and pride in a job well done. It was also give him a distaste for the mediocre.

4, I didn't want to send my child to college early as in 12 - 15, but we should have finished high school by 16. He has been a teenager way too long. We both agree on that. He was ready at 16 to be done.We were always a couple years ahead of even the most rigorous schedule - I was always afraid of being too pushy and I was told I was being too pushy. Well, I don't listen to advice like that anymore either. He would have been happier being pushed. Now,  I have a friend who produced 3, yes 3, National Merit Scholars. She kept all her boys home till 19. She has sound reasoning for this and she's been able to secure over $300,000  in scholarships. So, here it's going to depend on the child and your family.

5. I didn't know the difference between necessary work and busy work. We were curriculum dependent till my son was in about 6th grade. Most of the busywork is for the parents - it makes them feel that they got something when they spent $100 for that curriculum. I've grown to despise busywork - it gives the illusion that you are educating a child. 


What I did right and will do again:

1. Progrmnasmata - we didn't start till my son was in 5th grade. You don't need to curriculum for this. You just need your brain. If you don't feel comfortable writing then when your child gets to 7th grade or so, you may want to pick up Classical Rhetoric for the Modern Student or something like that. We did this all by imitation. So we found good examples of well written material then take it apart and then rewrite that  in our own words and then take a completely different subject and apply the principles from the example to our own writing. We will use the progym like this:

Fable:
a re-telling of story with a moral
Introduced in k
Description:
a vivid presentation of details with word pictures
Introduced in 1st grade
Narrative and Anecdote:
a re-telling of a story from given facts and a re-telling of what a person said
Introduced in 2nd grade
Comparison and Contrast:
compare and contrast particular persons, things, or ideas
Introduced in 3rd grade
Encomium and Invective:
praise or condemn a particular person or thing
Introduced in 3rd grade
Proverb and Maxim:
praise or refute a proverbial saying
Introduced in 4th grade
Confirmation and Refutation:
defend or refute an alleged fact or event
Introduced in 5th grade
Commonplace:
declaration against general vices
Introduced in 7th grade
Characterization:
write in the voice and style of a particular character (real or fictional)
Introduced in 7th grade
Thesis:
argue an undecided subject
Introduced in 6th grade, but practiced primarily in 7th grade and on.
Proposal of Law:
argue for or against old or new laws
introduced in 8th grade
Suasoria:*
exercises in political oratory
Introduced in 11th grade
Controversia:*
exercises in judicial oratory
Introduced in 11th grade
* Suasoria and Controversia are not technically part of the progymnasmata. Instead they are the culminating projects done by students of the progymnasmata.

This does not mean that we only use the progym for that certain grade. I've given assignments from all previous years we are just careful when we introduce the new stuff. When dealing with fables, myths, or fairy tales they can be lots of fun and great exercises. First we take a story and tell it in our own words. Then cut it down to 50 words. Then 25. Next we tell it from a different point of view. Then as a news story, Options are endless. I did this for a summer class of 5-9th graders. It was a ton of fun and the kids learned so much.

2. Other than literature/history discussion I quit teaching in the 6th grade. I picked most classes and helped but he was in charge - I gave him a list to do and that was it.  We'll do that again. You can't just stop in 6th grade you have to move into that over the years. He was irritated that his friends parents taught classes and I refused, but not now. He can teach himself and move faster than any of his peers. He doesn't need me, which is the end goal.

3. The last 4 years, I've really reduced the amount of requirements in his life and have been around as a coach. This last year he has picked all of his classes except the Omnibus - that is a requirement from me. He has chosen to take statistics and linear algebra both college courses. Funny from a kid who hated math. He feels very prepared to move on when he leaves my house. He is not planning on attending college. He plans on apprenticing a couple years and then starting his own business. I was a little shocked by it, but his reasoning is sound and he's put his plan on paper. He is taking steps on his own to get the experience he needs.

4.Schooled year round and took 2-3 week breaks to take vacations (always there was reading) and do an intensive of some kind. I don't mean a unit study, but maybe we are going to take 3 weeks and go to the East Coast and visit historical sites. Come home and then watch a video series on Gettyburg, and perhaps read more books and whatever. Maybe we take 3 weeks and study the history of Arms and Armour. 

What will a school day look like in 3rd grade? I don't know. I started working on curriculum plans when I was pregnant - even before I discovered Early Learning. My plan was to start my child on reading around two. Well, he's reading and he just turned two. He's moving faster and is light years ahead of my son. What do you do when you know there are kids on here doing basic algebra at 4? It throws a monkey wrench into the whole planning. However, here are the guideline that I don't think will change. And I am still against early college before 16. I want my child to have a full classical education. There are some things that require maturity - Dante's Inferno requires maturity, The Origin of the Species requires maturity. So, we will do the Omnibus starting in 7th grade and work all year till all six books are finished. History will start officially in 1st grade with Ancient Egypt and we'll cover all of history in 3 years in two cycles. We will cover European/American history 2x in those cycles as well. This is a Charlotte Mason approach - we'll be using real books and we'll have to pick something as a spine, I just haven't decided yet. Age 4 & 5 we will cover geography and family history. Summers will be a chance to study particular time periods in depth. I have a list of books I think are must reads in elementary. We'll be doing BFSU - which is classical in approach - covering it all in more depth as we mature. From there, not sure, it will depend on him. We're starting Latin as soon as the new LR comes out. Math - we are just going to have to figure it all out as we go along. That one doesn't take maturity and so you can move faster - same with science.

Here's the thing you guys have to remember when looking at curriculum and suggestions from the WTM and others. These guys are not into EL. So while their kids are spending the better part of k-2 learning to read, and do basic math our kids are going to be way past that. And, it is not like your children will just be 2 - 3 years ahead eventually they will be 6-8 years ahead. The more they learn the easier it is to learn. I have a little boy in daycare. I started teaching him to read when he was almost 3. He is turning 5 in a month. I started teaching my little guy to read a little over a year ago. The two of them are almost in the same place. The little daycare boy can sound out more words but my son knows probably 1000 more words when he sees them. In 3-4 months my son will be way past this 5 year old.It is going to take awhile before he catches back up. And my little daycare boy is way past any of the kids he is going to school with. Other than history/literature/handwriting and art...well, I'm winging it like the rest of you.

Thank you so much for your post, and no offense was taken.  I feel like my personal education is just beginning.  Sometimes I think I am looking more for a curriculum for myself than for my kids. lol. 

There is lots to think about.

EXACTLY!!!!  If you know it you can teach it, even if you know it only a couple weeks before they do.... :biggrin:

Thank you so much, Sonya, for sharing your insights. I'm loving it.

Thanks Sonya - you wrote a lot of interesting things. I am interested in the progymnasmata way of teaching rhetoric - how do you go about finding out more about this? My DD is due to start kindergarten next year, though she will be homeschooled and I have long been debating what to do with her regarding writing and other forms of language arts since her reading is so far advanced now.

How to find out about the Progym and exercises. Well, Wikipedia has a great post about it. You can look at curriculum - but you DON'T need it unless you are very uncomfortable teaching writing. I found a couple things online - this looks pretty good as a curriculum and I've linked to a sample of the fable stage: http://classicalcomposition.com/samples/
 
My friend with all the Merit Scholars used this: http://classicalwriting.com/Progym.htm. I have mixed feelings about this curriculum - but mostly I can't stand it. My friend loves it, my son took this in a class with her for 2 years - I taught baking/cooking while she taught writing. The problem may have been the teacher. The author put out a book 6  years ago that was pretty good. But parents wanted more of a "how to" not principles. So she wrote this whole series. Much of what my son was doing was busy work. LOTS AND LOTS AND LOTS of busy work. The books got expensive - and well, you know my feelings on it. 

My favorite book on writing by imitation is "The Wirters Workshop".- http://www.amazon.com/Writers-Workshop-Imitating-Better-Writing/dp/1933859334/ref=sr_1_12?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1349313349&sr=1-12&keywords=writers+workshop  This does not follow the progym but it is really a short little treasure.

Logos Press put out these: http://www.logospressonline.com/index.php?p=product&id=37&parent=18 click on the PDF sample and you will see what I mean when I say that you can do this stuff yourself. In the older grades you may want a curriculum, but k-6 you should be fine.

There is this: http://gemini.utb.edu/achurch/progymnasmata.html

You can get a ton of information on all things Classical from the Circe Institute. These guys are a distinctly Christian outfit, so you need to be aware of that before you truck on over.

Some poeple think that formal writing lesson should wait until age 7 or 8. Phewy. Not our kids. That doesn't mean they should be actually writing out stories, but they should be able to narrate a story back to you that you have read to them. I am not after original material - that is silly as kids haven't read enough to gather a storehouse of sentences and ideas to put together. But they can certainly retell what they've heard.

Sonya,

Thank you very much for your very informative and detailed posts. Coincidentally, I had been looking into how to teach writing and the available writing programs out there (including the ones based on the Progym) for the last couple of months, so your posts were very timely! I wish I could feel confident enough to teach writing without having to rely on prepared curricula and workbooks, but I don't think I could teach her to the level that I want her to achieve on my own, as English is not my native language. (Now, math and science are another matter altogether. I have no qualms about being able to teach her all the way up to Calculus and Quantum Physics if need be.  lol )

So here are the programs I am considering:

Classical Writing - http://www.classicalwriting.com/
Classical Composition - http://classicalcomposition.com/
Writing Tales - http://writing-tales.com/
Writing With Ease/Writing With Skill - http://www.welltrainedmind.com/store/language-arts/writing.html
IEW - http://www.excellenceinwriting.com/catalog/writing

I believe the first three are based on the Progym; I don't think IEW is, and I am not sure about Writing with Ease/Skill. Do you have any experience with any of these? What are the pros and cons of each program?

Just to give you an idea of where she is with regard to language arts:

1. Reading - approximately 5th grade level based on lexile scores and RL. Decoding skills are likely higher if I ignored reading with comprehension.

2. Spelling - about 3rd grade level. She is a natural speller and is blasting through AAS. In fact, the only reason I am even doing a structured spelling program with her is because she learned to read via whole words and simply intuited the phonics rules when she was 16-18 months old. I never went through phonics systematically with her, and going through a phonics-based spelling program is just my way of making sure nothing falls through the cracks. Plus, she is a little perfectionist and absolutely hates it when she spells a word wrong! At the rate we are going, we will be finished with all 7 AAS levels before she turns 5.

3. Handwriting/Writing - She LOVES to write, in both manuscript and cursive. Aside from her daily 25-30 spelling words/phrases, she also voluntarily writes a page or two in her daily journal, which is typically a retelling of a story she had just read, a letter to her dad, or a story from her own imagination. Most recently, she wrote a pretty long letter to the Little Einsteins telling them that Pluto is no longer considered a planet and even included the reasons why. (This was after she watched a LIttle Einsteins episode that included Pluto as a planet.)  lol

4. Grammar - To be honest, I don't know if I should even be thinking of doing a grammar program with her at this point. With the amount of books she reads, I think correct grammar just comes instinctively to her. She read the Brian McCleary grammar storybooks a couple of times and she can now reliably identify parts of speech, knows punctuation, capitalization, etc. I started doing First Language Lessons 1 with her (mainly because she is so far advanced in all other areas that I didn't want her grammar to lag noticeably behind or hold her back in her writing), and we finished the entire level 1 in a month or so. There is not much that will be new to her in FLL 2 grammar-wise, but she loves the poem memorization and narrations.

So, considering all of the above, when do you think I should start a more "formal" writing program with her, and how would you go about doing it? Does any program come to mind that you think will be particularly suited to her? You all gave me such great advice and food for thought in the advanced math thread that I am certain you will come through for me again!  :biggrin:

And, by the way, even though we are roughly following a classical model for homeschooling (preschooling?), I totally agree with you about the Trivium and how it is not really applicable to our EL children. I mean, just looking at Ella, she is considered to be in the grammar stage because of her age and she proves this by being able to memorize copious amounts of information - such as the entire list of prehistoric creatures, their characterisitics, and where each one occurs in the prehistoric timeline. But she is also able to think about what she is learning in more abstract terms and even express her thoughts about what she is learning. I once found her writing in her journal - "I don't want to be a paleontologist when I grow up. They always get things wrong. First they thought Oviraptor was stealing Protoceratops eggs. But actually it was protecting its own eggs. Then they thought Hallucigenia walked on legs that looked like stilts. But actually they were looking at the fossils upside down. And they were spines on its back. That is funny!"

 lol  lol  lol

aangeles,

I will do the best I can here and give a recap for others who may read this.

Classical writing is done by imitation. Obviously a child has nothing to write about so you give them examples of good writing to copy. As they read and grow they develop a storehouse of sentences and paragraphs to emulate. It is hard to ask a 4 year old to write original work. They develop this ability over time while working with the best writings in a particular genre. This method for learning to write has excellent results.

Curriculum - Classical Wiritng - we have used the program. Above I stated that I hated it. We were in a co-op with a few families who decided to use this program. We got together once a week. Several parents volunteered to teach, I was asked to teach a cooking/baking class at the same time. So, I didn't sit in on the classes, but I was not impressed with homework assignments nor how they used a thesaurus, or a whole bunch of other stuff. I grew to hate this class and we dropped out after 2 years. I would have dropped it the first year but they were friends. My son got mono and was very sick - our easy out. I called another friend this morning and asked for her impression of the series - she has taught it and her daughter moved to the class my son left. She likes the program abut does not like the way this other person taught. Evidently a lot of the things I hate about the program are not really in the program. So, I can't give an honest review of this other than the book they put out six years ago which you can't get anymore was terrific. We used that book a lot.

Classical Composition looks good from the examples. I haven't used it, but if you need something I might consider it.

IEW -

aangeles,

I will do the best I can here and give a recap for others who may read this.

Classical writing is done by imitation. Obviously a child has nothing to write about so you give them examples of good writing to copy. As they read and grow they develop a storehouse of sentences and paragraphs to emulate. It is hard to ask a 4 year old to write original work. They develop this ability over time while working with the best writings in a particular genre. This method for learning to write has excellent results.

Curriculum - Classical Wiritng - we have used the program. Above I stated that I hated it. We were in a co-op with a few families who decided to use this program. We got together once a week. Several parents volunteered to teach, I was asked to teach a cooking/baking class at the same time. So, I didn't sit in on the classes, but I was not impressed with homework assignments nor how they used a thesaurus, or a whole bunch of other stuff. I grew to hate this class and we dropped out after 2 years. I would have dropped it the first year but they were friends. My son got mono and was very sick - our easy out. I called another friend this morning and asked for her impression of the series - she has taught it and her daughter moved to the class my son left. She likes the program abut does not like the way this other person taught. Evidently a lot of the things I hate about the program are not really in the program. So, I can't give an honest review of this other than the book they put out six years ago which you can't get anymore was terrific. We used that book a lot.

Classical Composition looks good from the examples. I haven't used it, but if you need something I might consider it.

IEW - I have not used this program but a lot of people I respect have. Their kids have excellent writing but they all write the same. I can tell a child who's using the program by reading their writing. That doesn't make it bad, and if you add the progym exercises on your own this might be your best bet if you want a high standard but aren't sure of your ability. The progym is simple in the early years and there honestly isn't a reason to have a curriculum. Got look at this http://www.logospressonline.com/index.php?p=product&id=37&parent=18 click on the "see a PDF sample" or something like that. They have one for all the books listed below this one. The whole book is like that and most of the curricula for the early years of the progym are essentially the same basic format. So if I were going to pick something I would want a program that was going to do what I can't and do it well. IEW will do that for you. I've looked through some of their material and it really does a thorough job. In many home school circles it is the gold standard of writing programs. My son uses the Omnibus series for literature/history/religion class - we looked at taking an online class for the mental stimulation. Many instructors won't take you unless you've used IEW. I think you cannot go wrong if you choose this program. However, just add the progym exercises.

Writing with Skill looks good also. It has the grammar built in, that is nice. I also like that they've added diagramming sentences. We like diagramming sentences. Ella will probably love diagramming sentences.This is more in depth than some of the progym books I've looked at. I will have to really look over the stuff more to give my full impression. But it seems like a fine program.

Writing Tales - don't bother. It might be a fine program but it doesn't have the depth and it is not going to give you the high standard you are looking for. Again, you don't need a curriculum to do that - if you are going to get a program - get a program.

And you do realize that Ella is gifted don't you? Her IQ is pushing well past 150. She doesn't count.  :)  You are going to have to work hard to keep her challenged. It isn't so bad now, but 6 years from now is going to be the test.

Again, if she needs a place to go......if she decides she doesn't love you anymore, she can come live with me,

I might weigh in at some point here but I just wanted to say thanks to Sonya for her wisdom. We definitely don't have it figured out in our household, but at this point, I'm not stressing out about my ignorance. As long as H. is making good progress, which he is, and I do research and thinking now and then, I figure I've done my due diligence, so to speak. Charlotte Mason, yes, I'll have to read her sooner rather than later.

I"m not a Charlotte Mason groupie, she just has a whole lot of really good things to say.

For those who are unfamiliar, the Trivium applies to two things: the stages of child development so it dictates when we teach certain things to children. And also how we teach a subject no matter what age we are. I will still say there are very loose guidelines.

Daddude, I appreciate your perspective as a man. No, I am not an egalitarian. My husband takes the same attitude as you have. We are making progress, he is doing better than either of us hoped...we'll be fine. I am more high strung about this.  :yes:   Especially when it comes to math. I have looked at tons of curricula in the last 2 years. But it would be helpful to me if I took some hints from my husband.  This is a particularly female issue. All the moms I know worry that they haven't done the best they could. They see this whole world of things they should have taught their children and they nearly panic that they haven't done it just the "right" way. Your voice and my husband's voice and probably many of our husband's voices bring a bit of sanity to the situation. There is that whole problem of listening......

Sonya, thanks for your insights.  I totally agree with you that fathers tend to stress less about doing everything perfectly than mothers; at least it's true in my family.  Like you said, it's the listening that's hard...

I only have intermittant internet, so this is a bit behind, but corkers4life, thank you for asking about classical vs unit studies; that is exactly the question I was struggling with, and I had never put it into words!  I read that post just before I got off the internet last week, and I've been thinking about it as I read WTM this week.

As I reread WTM with two years of EL behind me, I'm reading it as much less of a prescriptive list of curricula (which is a totally valid interpretation!) and more as ideas.  I like the basic division of the trivium, but I agree EL kids will do it faster.  My guess with my oldest is grammar 4-8 years old, logic 8-12, and rhetoric 12-16.  And not using those as absolutes; just generalities, mostly to ogranize the four years of history cycle and maybe four years of math.  But we'll see.  Someone suggested a 3 year cycle; maybe I'll go for that and do it four times.

And I see now that the grammar stage can be taught (as someone said) in any way that works for my family: music, activities, unit studies, even dance if that's what it takes!  Bauer says something about how the grammar years are for mental pegs to hang later information on; let them meet great people, exciting stories, and foreign cultures for the first time and enjoy them so that they will remember them.  So you can combine the "classical" basics with any teaching method.

So having read that...  Now I have to research the progymnasmata!  Thanks a lot, sonya.  :-P  I'm sure it'll be useful and I'm excited.  But for now, I'm sticking with the plan I posted earlier: Charlotte Mason/classical grammar until age 8.  It's actually fairly close to my loose interpretation of WTM.  I just have to add grammar and Latin, which are both subjects I like, so I'll do that.

Sonya,

Thank you for the reviews on the writing programs. I spent the last couple of weeks doing some more reading and research, and for now I have settled on using Writing With Ease/Skill to begin with. I will see if she enjoys it and will reassess her progress in a year or so. She will be 5 at that point and my options will be either IEW + progym OR Classical Writing. Do you think IEW and CW-Aesop will be accessible to a 5-year-old or will be too advanced for her?

As for Ella being gifted, it has been brought up a few times by people who have had a chance to work with her, but we don't dwell on it.  :)  My main focus is to meet her at her current level and provide suitably challenging work so as to instill a strong work ethic and maximize her potential at the same time. Thanks to homeschooling, I have been able to keep comments from other people like "You're so smart" and comparisons to her age-peers at a minimum... so far!  :)

aangeles,

I think either IEW or CW Aesop will be fine for her and not above her head.

Here are my warnings about CW and this may or may not really be in the curriculum. It may have been the teacher. Since English is a second language for you, it is something to think about:

1. Be careful with taking apart the essentials and non-essentials of a story. You cannot take a story down to five points and it still be the same story.  Boy meets girl. Boy falls in love with girl. Boy loses girl. Everyone dies. is not the same as Romeo and Juliet.

2. You cannot just take words look them up in the Thesaurus and pluck them into a sentence at will. This is not how language works. 

3. Copying endless amounts of information, by hand, into a book is not the same as learning to write.

4. The point of the progym is imitation. You don't need to worry about copyright infringement. In the beginning Ella's writing should sound like the original author.

5. If at all possible skip the thesaurus entirely and let Ella find words from the storehouse of words she gathered in her head. This is far more effective than using a tool poorly.

She will be fine with either of these and most of the kids on here will be also. Right now, I;d just be asking her to retell, in her own words, stories that she is reading or that you read to her. You are looking to make sure she catches the main idea of the story, sequence of events, character and how they relate and she should be using words/sentences that the author used.

I'm going to recant my statement of "I'm leaning towards a Thomas Jefferson Education".  I generally thought that the idea of studying classics and having mentors sounded great (it is a true principle), and there are a lot of homeschoolers in my local community that do it, so I have been curious about it.  Anyway, I've done more research on it, and after reading the blog I linked to at the end of this post, a lot of dots started connecting, and I realized that TJed is more of an unschooling movement among LDS homeschoolers Utah.  I'm definitely not an unschooler!  Come to think of it, most of the negative comments I've received about early learning from my local homeschool peers have come from the TJed camp.  Now I understand why.  Having said that, I have re-read some of the TJed books this week, and there is some great advice in the books.  Oliver Demille is a very charismatic teacher!  However, I'm going to keep my distance from TJed in the future.  I'm going to do "The Well-Trained Mind" classical approach.

Thank you for this post.  I know this interjecting comment breaks the flow of this thread, but I wanted vocalize this change, and the e-mail update reminded me to do so.

http://whyidontdotjed.blogspot.com/

Thanks for the information about the TJed. I could never really garner much information about it when I was doing research many years ago. And I can see why. It really did strike me as being as vague as unschooling, which I am not a fan of either.

Thank you all so much for your back and forth. It was really helpful in solidifying some curriculum/writing choices for us, or at least defining a good starting point. I love the idea of the progymnastata and looking at all this information, am realizing, I was taught writing all wrong! Maybe, that is why I don't enjoy it very much.

We are just starting to think about our homeschooling programs and me being the super-planing person I am, I am trying to plan everything to the end of high school (my son is 13months old):-) I have a whole chart written for each subject-area and a combed chart for general curricula. as I said, thank you all for sharing your ideas

@aangeles, you mentioned AAS. At what age did Ella start it?

@sonya_post, you said your son is doing the omnibus series for literature/history/religion. Can you direct me to their website? I seem to be having trouble finding it. You also mentioned that there are some books that you consider a must-read in elemetary. Can you list those, or link me to a good list? Also, I am not all that comfortable teaching history as math/science were my own strong points. Other than omnibus, which you mentioned, are there any history curricula that you would recommend? Also, if it isn't too much trouble, can you write a list/provide  a link to a list of recommended readings/stories/books  to read etc for each stage of the progym if I do end up doing it on my own.

Thank you,
Juli

History = story of the world :)
My kids love it. And request it often.  It is a great place to start. Plus you can add as much as you want to it. for instance when they get to the first Olympics it is pretty light, you could do an extended Olympic study.
A couple of points. Firstly it has been said it has a biblical slant. I found the bible stories within it to be well linked to the time and history. Bearing in mind that history is a perspective thing, it's pretty easy to find the occasional opposing view of an event to teach your kids that.
Secondly you will get out of it as much as you put in. You could just read the books. I highly recommend you do even if you decide on another curriculum. They are a light read as far as history books go and the stories bring history to life for children. I recommend the audio, it is wonderful! I don't consider history all that important so we just listen to the audio in the car and discuss each section after. If you consider history more important then add in the PDF activity books. ( don't have them yet so can't comment)
Hre is the link But the books are available many places so shop around. http://www.welltrainedmind.com/the-story-of-the-world-history-for-the-classical-child/
Also there are a number of good bloggs showing ways to make lap books etc from this series so do a little looking around.

We love SotW. I was initially concerned because we are a secular family. But I am not at all perturbed by the biblical stories. There are very few. But there are also African Tales like the ones of Anasazi. There are also Greek myths including a whole section about Odysseus.
I am an ancient history/philosophy major and I have to say I am impressed with SotW. Granted I am reading it to my 2 year old. When he is older the books would need heavy supplementing. But that can be achieved by finding relevant articles and library books.

juliguli,

You can find the Omnibus here: http://www.veritaspress.com/products.asp?dept=1196  NOTE: They are a Christian outfit. Their materials are from a Christian worldview. If that is not suitable for you, then I might use the recommendations at the back of Mortimer Adler's How to Read a Book You can also use Modern Scholar's Odyssey of the West as a spine for the great books. I truly enjoyed that series and we've used it with the Omnibus. I am not afraid of my child coming into contact with other worldviews. That is the point of Classical Education/Great Books Education. I want my child to engage the best of what has been said and thought from the beginning of time. And I want him to know what he didn't show up at the latter part of the 21st century with all these brand new ideas of his own. He is standing on thousands of years of thinking, We call this the "Democracy of the Dead",

Obviously, all of the above resources are focused on the West. I don't see that as a problem, but you should add great books from other cultures as well. Sun Tzu's The Art of War comes to mind. 

Whether you are a Christian or not, Veritas Press has wonderful suggestions for books you should read when covering different periods of history.  We've used the catalog for that purpose and they find some of the neatest books. Since they are assuming a child comes into school a non-reader, the books aren't always as challenging as I'd like. Our main source for material is http://www.yesterdaysclassics.com/

I will be using many of the recommendations on http://www.amblesideonline.org/curriculum.shtml It is a full online curriculum - free. And lots and lots of help on how to use it and teach.  There are several histories for children: Story of the World was already mentioned, Gombrich's A Little History of the World is a quick read and delightful. I also like the Streams of History series from Yesterday's Classics.History is a series of stories. Children learn best when they hear about stories. In the beginning, give then as much as they can stand and then just a little more to be sure. Historical fiction, real books, and build a catapult or two and you'll be fine. We made a historical timeline or what Charlotte Mason calls a books of centuries. This is very helpful. My sisters both use the historical figures here: http://www.homeschoolinthewoods.com/HTTA/timeline.htm and I suspect that we will as well. It saves ton's of time and there are so many uses for them. We also use Usborn's Encyclopedia of World History[/i. This is not story based and more like traditional history. The pictures are fantastic.

I will post a list of books later today by grade. I have two lists, one list is must reads and the other is a list of possible free reading books. the free reading books are not the only books my child could read, but we didn't stray too far from it. My son never read Captain Underpants or many of the other silly books put out for children.

I will have to get back to you on the Progym and how I did it. I must get busy with my day. But I will come back to this and really flesh out how we used it, how we chose the writing etc.

For History, I have definitely decided to start with Story of the World.  I am excited to add a timeline to our long learning hallway, and I found this great link that pairs with Story of the World for creating a timeline.  http://tendingourlordsgarden.blogspot.com/p/story-of-world-volume-2-resources.html (http://tendingourlordsgarden.blogspot.com/p/story-of-world-volume-2-resources.html)   I am going to use just clothes line and pins to display the timeline. 

I have also seen a deck of Anki Cards for Story of the World 1.  Too bad the rest haven't been done yet.  Looks like another project.   I think I am going to create Anki cards using the timeline cards provided at the link above.  I am fourth in line for Story of the World at the library.  Its a very popular series.  Of course this is the audio version.  The library oddly enough only has the audio version.  I wonder if the book is better?

Sonya_post,
Wow, thank you so very much for the level of detail and thoughtfulness in your response. I really appreciate it! Thank you so much for all the links. We are looking for a Christian history/writing curriculum. However, like you, I am not afraid with my child coming into contact with other worldviews. I believe it will strengthen his logical thinking skills, his love for and ability to interact with others, his ability to articulate his own beliefs, and build his discernment. I also believe that you can find hints or reminders of the one great story in every story. Therefore, I think we will definitely be looking at the omnibus and possibly classical composition (which you mentioned in a previous post), and then seeing what we can add on from there, such as the Odyssey of the West and some great books of the other cultures.

For history, thank you for that link with the curriculum. It is great! I do like Story of the World as well, as it has been mentioned several times in these posts, and so is on my short list.

As far as the timeline, did you break yours up the way they did on  the link, and how big did you make it? Did you make a list of books that fit into each time period and then studied those books from there? Did you go in order of the timeline in your teaching? You also said it has many uses. Can you enumerate some for me? Again, sorry for sounding like I don't know much here, but I really don't think I studied any history after high school and even then, it was definitely just memorize just enough to get an A, but not really any real depth or understanding with it. Now that I see how other people teach it, such as yourself, I wish that someone would have gotten me excited about it like you seem to be doing with your kids.

Again, thank you so much for your thoroughness and the time you take to write responses. I am looking forward to the lists you mentioned.  I don't know if I have enough posts yet to give karma points, and don't know how to do it yet, but if I find how, I will give some to you!

@coker4life,
Thanks for that timeline link. I will absolutely be looking into that!

juliguli,

I have attached the list of books that are must reads prek-6th. These are not necessarily all the books we'll read. And I'm going to do some rearranging as my LO gets older as this whole EL thing changes everything. And I'm not going to do history like I did before. I am running two streams of history at the same time. That is a Charlotte Mason thing and I see no reason for it not to work. The European history/American history is an Ambleside Online thing. Charlotte thought you should do your country history along side world history. America is a young country so they went to Western Civ along side World History. I am not sure how I am going to do this yet. Possibly Eurpoean/American or just family/American as our family history would cover much of European history as well. This means many of the books on the list will have to be rearranged as we make changes in our plan of study. This list is not meant to cover history at all. I just think the books are good and want my child to read them. History is a different set of titles and that has morphed a bit over time as I find books I love.

This is how I did history. There was no curriculum per se. I didn't use a spine the first time around other than Usborn's Encyclopedia of World History We just covered it chronologically. I made a list of books that I wanted to read that covered the time period. I try to make literature and history match, but that doesn't always work as some books can be read at an early age but that doesn't mean they should be. So, my son might be reading a book covering late 20th century when in history we are covering Early Middle Ages. That isn't a big deal, but I try to keep it to a minimum. We have taken a couple summers and chosen to do a World History Survey Course and also American History Survey. Usually we'll watch a video series by the Teaching Company and then pick books to read that go along with it. Your local library might carry a bunch of Teaching Company material, you should check it out. We've also used summers to cover things like the Civil War in depth. I usually left those kinds of decisions up to my kiddo. Except the survey courses. We did a World History Survey when my son was 8 and then again before we started the Omnibus. Then before each new term of the Omnibus we'll do a Teaching Company lecture series that covers the same period. That will usually take a month to complete.  I don't start testing or recording grades until 7th grade. As prior to that they are learning and learning to learn. And for all practical purposes it doesn't matter. We do everything to mastery regardless of how long it takes. So, on history I don't do quizzes or tests. We talk about what we are reading. I introduce ideas that we will encounter.later. You will know as a parent whether your child has mastered something if you are paying attention. The goal is to get them to talk about what they know and what they have gleaned. It is good to ask questions concerning the Great Ideas to get them to start thinking.

We used a timeline book. Much like what you see on the link I gave you with the historical figures. Only we drew ours and wrote stuff in. I used a 3 ring binder and cardstock. Pretty basic. My son likes to draw so he did his as he wanted. The historical figures can be used in a lot of ways. Note-booking or narration pages, adding them to a timeline. Bingo cards and other games can be made from them. Never forget flashcards.

Here is the thing about teaching other viewpoints whether you are Christian, Hindu, Athiest, or Shaman: We all swim in this soup together. So, everyone living in the West today has been distinctly shaped by the Reformation whether you like it or not. Whether a Christain likes it or not, much of what we call "Christian Doctrine and Practice" is heavily influenced by Greek philosophers. There is no one alive in the West that can escape Augustine even if they have no idea who he is or read a single word of his writing. The point of the Great Books/Classical education is partly to trace these ideas back and see what kind of effect they have had on our culture.

 
cokers,
I want a hallway like yours but my oldest son nixed it. I am now waiting for him to move out so I can use the walls of his room.  lol


As far as books to read other than my list go here: http://www.classical-homeschooling.org/celoop/1000.html  Look through the Charlotte Mason stuff. In the meantime, I have to find my master list, it is not on this computer and I'm hoping it is in a hard drive somewhere. 

I am still going to get the progym post to you. Not tonight.

Oooh. I love the Teaching Company's lectures.

And thank you for the book list Sonya. 

Juliguli,

Ella started spelling CVC words when she was 2.5 using the Montessori Crosswords app on the Ipad. I then decided to order AAS because I wanted a phonics-based spelling program, but didn't get to start it with her until she was a month shy of 4 (due to a lot of traveling and moving cross-country and then internationally). In hindsight, I could probably have started AAS earlier since she is just really breezing through it now. We are almost halfway through the 7-level program, and she is showing no signs of slowing down even though I have started dictating each spelling word/phrase and having her write them down, instead of using the letter tiles. She really likes this program and loves being able to spell independently when she is writing her stories or even just text messaging her dad.  lol

For History, we are also using Usborne's Encyclopedia of World History as our spine, supplemented by Gombrich's A Little History of the World (we are using the illustrated edition and the audio CDs), Story of the World (book and CDs), Jim Weiss recordings, Yesterday's Classics ebooks, as well as lots of storybooks and hands-on materials. It is working out great for us!   :D

Thank you everyone for all your ideas.

Right now, my son is 13 months, and we just discovered doman when he was about 8 months old, didn’t start using any cards until 9 months old (I read through the books and that’s how long it took me to do that and prep). Even since then, we really havn't been consistent because of travel until about 2 months ago and we just got LR, and little math and muscian (all of which he loves!). We also have lebelled most things in our house (back when he was 8 months old) and now he loves walking through the house pointing to every label.  I love reading to him and he loves his books, which are in baskets all over the house, and so we randomly walk into any room and can pick up a book.

Anywho, all that to say, we are really excited about this whole early learning process and loving the fact that even in the last few months to see his excitement and love for this. It is wonderful to find a forum-full of people that love discussing early learning. With my family and friends, I usually get negative remarks for my excitement and Titus' progression.

So, for homeschooling, based on what I have gleaned from these forums, we are going to do an eclectic approach. I want to keep him challenged, so I want to have ideas of where to go for the most challenge in each discipline, and also not limit him in areas where I do not feel super confident (art, music, history, creative stuff:-) If in any discipline, it doesn't end up being his strongsuit, then it is easier to drop things/go slower than to be scrambling to add things to keep up with him and have no idea how (at least for my hyper-planning brain).

So, here is kinda a rough outline of what we are thinking for each area, in roughly chronological order:

MATH:
For math, we are planning to continue with little math, reaidng through marshmellow math, then MEP, jones genius, rightstart math, jumpstart math, soroban, possibly singapore math, hands on equations, calculus by and for young people, khan academy, AoPS. The reason for so many is that I feel very confident with math and thus confident that I could pull the best from several areas/curriculums and present in a way my son understands. As I said, I also want to be able to keep up with challenging him. Ooh, and I got zometools geometry set (thanks aangeles for mentioning that homeschoolbuyeers co-op was having a sale on this one).

ENGLISH LANGUAGE:
For learning to read, we will continue with LR and with other flashcards I got at this site: http://www.childandme.com/ (awesome source of powerpoints for reading/math/encyclopedic knowledge, spanish and russian powerpoint flashcards, as well as links to other sites).  We will continue to point out words where we see them and labelling our home. We will also take nadia0801's suggestion and put flashcards along the wall in the hallways, up and down from him, so he has to bend for some, reach for some, make it a game. If he does not intuit phonics, and just to solidify his learning, we may also go through how to teach your child to read in 100 easy lessons. We will continue to read many many books together as well.

For writing, we have started "journaling" where I write what he says (his signs and babbling, and some words), and then he draws. I will also write him little notes on a little whiteboard for him to discover in the morning when he wakes up and then we will read it together, and down the line, he can "answer" me on the whiteboard. We will do montessori-inspired pre-writing activities that fine-tune his small motor movement (knobbed cylinders-how you hold them- he loves doing these and fitting them into their holes, connect4 game-he just loves putting the plastic coins in, cutting, tracing,  etc). We will then follow up with montessori-style writing activities (moveable alphabet, sandpaper letters etc). We may do Handwriting Without Tears. For spelling/vocab, we will check out AAS, worldy wise 3000, and your Child Can Discover.

Once he has learned to write, we will try to follow the progym, possibly using classical compositions as our base curriculum with some logos press stuff, though we are also considering omnibus, IEW, and Writing With Ease/Skill. I may supplement with some grammar-specific things like  First Language Lessons, and Brian McCleary grammar storybooks.

SOCIAL SCIENCES
For geography, I will use Beginning Geography as a jumping off point, and then choose books and things based on that (as suggested by aangeles  on another post).

For history, I will buy Usborne's Encyclopedia of World History and Story of the World as both come highly recommended by many people on here that I respect. I may or may not use those as a spine. We will check out the usborne young reading books about various people in history. I will also probably try omnibus (though I am not sure when to start this-on their website it seems like they begin with second grade)/classical conversations music cds/ amblesideonline.org. Oh, and I will make a timeline or timeline book. I may also supplement books from http://www.yesterdaysclassics.com/ . Thank you sonya_post and others for really sparking my interest in history as I never really have been before. I am actually excited to teach it, because I feel I will be learning it really truly for the first time (not just studying up to pass a test)!

PHYSICAL SCIENCES
We will possibly do BFSU, mini set from particlezoo.net, free activity books etc from http://www.physicscentral.com/experiment/colormephysics/index.cfm  (thanks annisis), zometool stuff, chemistry stuff from http://portal.acs.org:80/portal/acs/corg/content?_nfpb=true&_pageLabel=PP_TRANSITIONMAIN&node_id=878&use_sec=false&sec_url_var=region1&__uuid=d2bbecdb-6c08-4b91-99ed-a4295baa0e7e (thanks kerileanne99), real science 4 kids, peter wetherhall's dvds, and videos from makemegenius.com (thanks TeachingmyToddlers).

RIGHT BRAIN
We will buy tweedlewink, and wink down the line, as well as memory magic. We will also do many puzzles and other right brain activities as suggested by many on these forums.

MUSIC
Little musician, then soft mozart, then lessons of some sort (I really lack in this area).

ART
Draw write now, art atelier.

PHYSICAL EDUCATION
Loosely following doman activities. Later, plan to enroll in martial arts and run/playground at home.

OTHER LANGUAGES
Speaking Russian (me, grandparents on my side), ASL (me, deaf friends), and Afrikaans (my husband, grandparents on his side) to him. Will start LR flashcards as well. Awesome that there are some Afrikaans ones on there! That is hard to come by. For Russian, we may add some things from umnitsa later.

OTHER
We will also continue some montessori inspired sensorial and practical life activities. He loves setting his place, helping me unload his dishes into his little drawer, vaccum, scoop and pour the dog food etc. For sensorial, he loves the knobbed cylinders and pink tower (only 3 blocks of it so far), stacking/nesting by size etc. We will also study the bible, but to me, that is really in and through everyday life as well, so it is not a separate curriculum, but just a regular part of our life.

I've gotten several requests regarding how to use the progymnasmata exercises.

The first place I'd begin is with this little book : The Writer’s Workshop: Imitating Your Way to Better Writing

This book will give very specific examples of how to approach writing by imitation. The exercises will be over a child's head. This is not for them, it is for you. 

Next: I've given a detailed list of when we will begin the exercises of the progym. When we are reading books or stories in any subject I am always on the lookout for examples to use as an assignment. Great descriptions of people and places, great speeches, favorite stories for retelling. I keep them in folders for each progym exercise.

In pre-k through 3 we read copious amounts of fairy tales, folk tales, myths and fables. I don't like to read just one author. We will read different versions and retellings and then compare them. We do this even if we aren't using the story for the progym. But if we are using a story for the progym then we will definitely read several accounts. You should be able to discuss with your child the differences in the stories. I'd ask questions about what makes different versions more or less likeable. There is no right or wrong answer. This is to get them to think.

Next, go over any vocabulary the child doesn't know. This is where I'd get out a thesaurus and look up synonyms. This is purely so the child begins to grapple with the nuances of language. You might look up the words and some of the synonyms in a dictionary so you can help the child to determine if other words would have worked in the situation or what words came up as synonyms but don't work at all in the context. This is where you'd also go over words that might be a spelling hazard and write them down.

Next – make an outline of the story. It should include people, places and events. A child should be able to look at the story and retell it from the outline. But it should not include every detail.

Last – retell the story.

In kindergarten – early 2nd grade this is where you finish. If my child is doing all his own writing – I am going to check for spelling mistakes on the rough draft and then write them in a spelling notebook. These should be studied and tested later on. Most spelling mistakes are from laziness. When my son realized that he was going to have to write the words 20 times, give me the spelling rule for the word, and then be tested, his spelling improved dramatically.  We are also checking for proper grammar.

The final version – this should be written in the child's best hand writing if the child is doing all the writing and kept in a notebook.

When the children are ready you can change things up a bit. Cut the story down to 50 words. What happens when you do this? Can you really shorten the story this much? Think of other stories that are similar to this one. Even if the plot of the story is common how does it change when we add different elements. Find stories that share the same plot and compare them. Now take the plot and rewrite the story with different characters in a different time. Rewrite the story as a newspaper article. Retell it from  a different point of view.

I give out one assignment a week. In middle and high school it depends on the assignment. You will probably want to get a decent Rhetoric book then or go to a curriculum. I like Farnsworth 's Classical Rhetoric. It is not a curriculum rather, it is a list of rhetorical devices with lots and lots of examples of excellent writing. I looked through Classical Composition stuff and it looks good especially for the older grades. Classical Rhetoric for the Modern Student is very good. There is a lot of good stuff out there. 

When you get to the proverbs, invective, confirmation and refutation  I just went through what we had read or heard about in the news. I might search the internet to see if someone has picked it apart. This will help me get a different point of view. Discuss the writing and follow the the previous format. And then apply the same style of argument to a different subject. Maybe here is where you want to think about a curriculum. Now that I think about this, there is a lot I just can't explain – you are going to have to have a decent grasp of rhetorical devices and how to make arguments.

Descriptions: We love literature and stories in our house. My son and I have always found great joy in sharing descriptions we find in books. I'll photocopy sections and put them in a folder for use later. What makes a good description? How does the use of words create mental images? What kind of mental images is the author trying to create by using this description.


Mr. and Mrs. Dursley, of number four, Privet Drive, were proud
to say that they were perfectly normal, thank you very much.
They were the last people you’d expect to be involved in
anything strange or mysterious, because they just didn’t hold
with such nonsense.



In a hole in the ground there lived a hobbit. Not a nasty, dirty,
wet hole, filled with the ends of worms and an oozy smell, nor
yet a dry sandy hole with nothing in it to sit down on or to eat:
it was a hobbit-hole, and that means comfort. . . . This hobbit
was a very well-to-do hobbit, and his name was Baggins. The
Bagginses have lived in the neighbourhood of The Hill for time
out of mind, and people considered them very respectable, not
only because most of them were rich, but also because they
never had any adventures or did anything unexpected.
Mr. Dursley was the director of a firm called Grunnings, which
made drills. He was a big, beefy man with hardly any neck,
although he did have a very large mustache. Mrs. Dursley was
thin and blonde and had nearly twice the usual amount of neck,
which came in very useful as she spent so much of her time
craning over garden fences, spying on the neighbors. The
Dursleys had a small son called Dudley and in their opinion
there was no finer boy anywhere.


The mother of our particular hobbit—what is a hobbit? I
suppose hobbits need some description nowadays, since they
have become rare and shy of the Big People, as they call us. They
are (or were) a little people, about half our height, and smaller
than the beared dwarves. Hobbits have no beards. There is little
or no magic about them, except the ordinary everyday sort
which helps them to disappear quietly and quickly when large
stupid folk like you and me come bludering along. . . . They are
inclined to be fat in the stomach; they dress in bright colours
(chiefly green and yellow); wear no shoes, because their feet
grow natural leathery soles and thick warm brown hair like the
stuff on their heads (which is curly); have long clever brown
fingers, good-natured faces, and laugh deep fruity laughs
(especially after dinner, which they have twice a day when they
can get it).


The Dursleys had everything they wanted, but they also had a
secret, and their greatest fear was that somebody would discover
it. They didn’t think they could bear it if anyone found out
about the Potters. Mrs. Potter was Mrs. Dursley’s sister, but they
hadn’t met for several years; in fact, Mrs. Dursley’s pretended she
didn’t have a sister, because her sister and her good-for-nothing
husband were as unDursleyish as it was possible to be. The
Dursleys shudderd to think what the neighbors would say if the
Potters arrived in the street. The Dursleys knew that the Potters
had a small son, too, but they had never even seen him. This boy
was another good reason for keeping the Potters away; they
didn’t want Dudley mixing with a child like that.


As I was saying, the mother of this hobbit—Bilbo Baggins, that is—was
the famous Belladonna Took, one of the three remarkable daughters of
the Old Took, head of the hobbits who lived across The Water, the small
river that ran at the foot of The Hill. It was often said (in other families)
that long ago one ofthe Took ancestors must have taken a fairy wife. That was, of
course, absurd, but certainly there was still something not
entirely hobbit-like about them, and once in a while members
of the Took-clan would go and have adventures. They discreetly
disappeared, and the family hushed it up; but the fact remained
that the Tooks were not as respectable as the Bagginses, though
they were undoubtedly richer.


When Mr. and Mrs. Dursley woke up on the dull, gray Tuesday
our story starts, there was nothing about the cloudy sky outside
to suggest that strange and mysterious things would soon be
happening all over the country. Mr. Dursley hummed as he
picked out his most boring tie for work, and Mrs. Dursley
gossiped away happily as she wrestled a screaming Dudley into
his high chair. None of them noticed a large, tawny owl flutter past the
window.
J.K. Rowling


By some curious chance one morning long ago in the quiet of
the world, when there was less noise and more green, and the
hobbits were still numerous and prosperous, and Bilbo Baggins
was standing at his door after breakfast, smoking an enormous
long wooden pipe that reached nearly down to his wooly toes
(neatly brushed)—Gandalf came by. Gandalf! If you had heard
only a quarter of what I have heard about him, and I have only
heard very little of all there is is to hear, you would be prepared
for any sort of remarkable tale. Tales and adventures sprouted up
all over the place wherever he went, in the most extraordinary
fashion. . . . All that the unsuspecting Bilbo saw that morning
was an old man with a staff. He had a tall pointed blue hat, a
long grey cloak, a silver scarf over which his long white beard
hung below his waist, and immense black boots.
J.R.R. Tolkien


The above examples are wonderful descriptions and also mirror themselves. We used these excerpts for an assignment in 6th grade. How are these examples the same, different? What are they trying to accomplish? How do they set the stage for the stories? What are some of the best phrases? The list of things to discuss are endless. It is best if your children can discover this on their own with guidance from you. The assignment was to make a character description of someone he knew based on one of these models. It had to be the same number of paragraphs. It should sound similar. He could add other characters to help round out the assignment, but one of characters had to be someone he knew. You don't assign this until a child has gotten used to taking these exercises and adding his own spin to them.

If you are starting with an older student, I would start at the fable stage and work up to the point you feel you need help and can't do it anymore. A lot of time should be spent on those early exercises as they are putting lots and lots of material in their storehouse for later use. When I said one assignment a week, I meant one fully written composition a week. So, We would start one Monday and read the story and do the vocabulary work. On Tuesday we'd outline it the story. On Wednesday we'd work on a rough draft. Thursday correct it and then rewrite and turn it on Friday. This is not how it always worked. Sometimes we'd spend half a day on writing. If I want the child to then turn it in as a newspaper story I'd give a couple more days to do that. If we are spending some time with the story and doing multiple things with it, then there might be 2-3 compositions in a week.

Honestly, the place I would start is The Writer's Workshop. It does an excellent job of walking through writing by imitation and how to do it, plus exercises that I haven't discussed as it would take a book. You could get through most of elementary school using that book alone as your guide.

sonya_post,
Wow thanks for all the time and effort you took to answer my questions. I really appreciate it. I did finally figure out how to give karma points and gave some to you. Thank you!

Just going through my hard drive and came across this from a long while ago.and I remember using this a lot for a progym reference:

http://rhetoric.byu.edu/pedagogy/Progymnasmata/Progymnasmata.htm

A quick update on our progress in Writing:

After much reading and researching and comparing programs, I decided to start Ella on Writing with Ease as it seemed to be the most accessible (for her) and easily implemented (for me) program amongst the ones I was considering. It was basically open-and-go, which I very much appreciated as I was in the last months of my pregnancy and even more so now with a newborn. I was surprised at how much Ella LOVED reading the selections, narrating, summarizing, and writing down her thoughts. About half of the books in WWE 1 were ones we had read already but she still enjoyed re-reading them and doing the exercises. Here are a couple of pages she did on her own back in Nov when she was 4 years 4 months old. (see attached pics)

 :)

Impressive. And her handwriting is gorgeous. I can't write that neatly.

Way to go Ella. Keep up the good work.

It's beautiful I love your photos. Writing with ease is quite popular with home schoolers. I liked the look of it also. A bit like a writers workshop in kid format is it not?
Her handwriting is probably about a end of grade 1 level, I can't tell how big her print is but she is clearly ready for cursive.

I have no idea about any of the home schooling ideas as i didn't try any of them to my kid. Hes just 3 years old so i started teaching him alphabets and he's able to say them orally. But I tried many teaching methods by searching essay have (https://essay-writing-services.reviews/essayhave-com-review/) blogs and started implementing them on my kid. Now he's doing better job.