BrillKids Forum

Hello all:
The doc here :clown:   
was wondering if anyone has had experience with the Stanfort binet iq test to get into kindergarten, or the gesell kindergarten rediness test.
here in LA, most private schools give these tests to see if your child is 'right' for the school.  i was wondering what you fabulous parents out there feel about this and if in other countries you and your child have had to go through this at all? 

i originally thought of practicing for this, but this is what my friend told me:

her daughter took several practice tests with a specialist (lots of $$).  anyway, what they didn't tell her was that it is like taking any other kind of standardized test:  every time you take it your score is kept... until high school!  so even though her child (after a few times) had aced it, every try was recorded and followed her around.  it even effected where she got into high school. 
the reason i'm telling you is that if you think its a good idea to practice, don't practice officially as it will hurt you in the end.  but  regardless of that, i still want my little one to be prepared no matter what they throw at her:  so my question is:  how on earth can you prepare and what can you practice for?  anyone have any ideas??
thanks!
the doc  :clown:

I'd be curious to learn if anybody here has a child going to a kindergarten or preschool that requires an IQ test.

I honestly can't fathom a school giving a test to a 5 year old and basing their entrance upon it. A test to see if their IQ is right for school? Are you serious? This is kindergarten. So what happens if the child doesn't score high? They go to kindergarten when they are 7? And paying for a 5 year old to "practice" for it? This isn't the SATs. I don't know whether to find it laughable or insane.

Well, believe it. Most private schools here in los Angeles do give one or the other. So if you want to go to these schools then you have to take it. Some public schools require it as well to determine if a child should be in the gifted program, but that is more a readiness test which follows them until 8th grade. Meaning even if your child flunks every gifted class they are never kicked out of the gifted program if they had a good scores on their kindergarten test. So it's important. All the moms out there in the USA, do check to see what test you school/district uses to assess participation in the gifted program.
So, does anyone out there know about these tests?
Thanks!
The doc :clown: 

I don't know anything about them.  I guess the test would differ from school to school, and if I were in your shoes (glad I'm not) I would ask for information from the schools you're interested in, then read about the specific tests they use (if they give you that information).  I've heard of such tests in New York City and elsewhere, even for preschoolers.  Maybe it's a big city slicker kind of thing.  lol

I don't think that requiring an IQ test for admission to a demanding "academic" program is crazy, assuming that they've actually discovered that high-IQ kids are capable of and benefit from a certain kind of training that lower-IQ kids can't absorb or benefit from.  If that's true, it seems fine to me.  Still, not adjusting the placement after Kindergarten does seem hard to justify.  On the other hand, maybe even that is not so crazy.  I myself was a middling elementary school student, not very motivated, then in the fifth grade they did some intelligence test and decided I was "gifted."  So I was then put into a gifted class for half a day one day a week, as I recall, which did not significantly help me as far as I remember; if I remember right, it was mostly stupid logic puzzles and "brain builder"-type stuff, and not any substantial learning at all.  Moreover, I didn't actually do better after that in any subject.  But I guess it did help me to know that I was "gifted," on the view of the System.  Might have made me a little more ambitious, in the long term.  And actually I was so unmotivated at certain times in my school career that I was not promoted to the "honors" class in a subject, in some years.  That didn't kill me but I did find the work much too easy and it gave me an appreciation for the honors classes.

After all this, I reflect pleasantly on the fact that we'll be homeschooling and will sidestep all such problems.

Bronson and Merryman published a book called "Nurture Shock" which talks about IQ tests to determine gifted kids in kindergarten.  To sum it up, this is what they said:

"Millions of kids are competing for seats in gifted programs and private schools.  Admissions officers say it’s an art: new science says they’re wrong, 73% of the time."

According to the research, there is currently no accurate way to predict gifted kids at that age.  Many of the children who display "giftedness" at that age often end up mediocre later in life and many other truly gifted kids are just late bloomers.  Experts say that IQ tests aren't accurate until a child is at least 12 years old.

You can read more about it here:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/25/nyregion/25bigcity.html?_r=1

yes!  i read the book as well... and i totally agree, but i'm stuck in a system that relies heavily on these tests...
it is HORRIBLE!  but what can i do as i'm not qualified (or have the time) to homeschool.  so i say if they are going to play that game, fine.  but let me be prepared as possible to get my child the best education i can.
that's why i brought up the topic.  anyone know what the test is all about??
thanks for participating in this forum!
the doc :clown:

DrPrimo,

I live in Brazil and here there isn´t this kind of IQ test, the child just need to be old enough to get in kindergarden, and follows normally it as the other classmates, but here there is a test which starts in high school specifically in 1st year after the 8th grade, and the students do it until the 3rd year, they get a mark every year that will sum in the end of 3rd year. Using this mark, the students can get in an university according to the pontuation acquired, they have the oportunity of a better university. The name of this test used here is: ENEM.

There are tests foe that time here as well.  In the USA, we have what is called gifted programs which are accelerated classes and more advanced. Looks good to universities if you take them. Anyway one of the ways to see if your child qualifies is this iq test. It is very irritating because if you get a person who doesn,t do a good job giving the test (it's one on one) then you are doomed. Uggg!!!

Very interesting!  I wonder what makes "new science" say they're "wrong."

I'll have to look up that book.

I highly recommend that book. So much great info and not just about tests!  Simply gacinating. Anyone who lives in the US has to read it. Buy on amazon as it's cheap!
Let me know what you think!
The doc :clown:

mmm...Here in this state where I live in United States, there are some private schools that make your child to take some IQ test to see if they are ready to get in the program.My nice was 4 years old when her mom took her to this school but she couldn't pass the test(even if she knew how to read)they said she was not ready yet for their pre school program because she needed to improve her social skills (inmature).
I came from a South America country where you have to take test in private schools  and also on public schools to be able to get in. When I was 5 years old they didn't accept me in this private school  kindergarten program because in the test I was playing instead of sitting and answering questions! :happy:
So I don't know, I had to go to a public school because I didn't have any other chance, also for the high school program one Public school didn't take me because I didn't pass the IQ Test.
But the funiest thing is I scored in the first tenth place in the test for one of the most prestigious university in  my town (where you need to pass three different test and bit hundreds of people)  and I got the highest grade in my thesis presentation from all my class on my graduation day.

I don't know, it is a confusing topic. But reality is THERE ARE IQ TEST FOR CHILDREN TO GET IN SCHOOLS.

PY - you're an excellent example of why IQ tests don't work for children.  The tests are supposed to identify children with academic potential but they don't work.

DadDude - it's got to do with brain development - it isn't linear, therefore a test in kindergarten cannot predict future intelligence.  If thickness of the cerebral cortex is supposed to determine intelligence then a child doesn't really reach full thickness until 11 or 12 years old - that's also the time when they say IQ tests become more reliable.  They found that some children who were labeled as intelligent later on in life actually had much thinner cortices in the early years.  These children were found to be below average in kindergarten, yet they ended up being smarter than the "gifted" kindergarteners.  Therefore a child who aces these IQ tests in kindergarten does not necessarily turn out to be gifted later in life.  While a child that fails these IQ tests can still be gifted later on.  Where then is the accuracy of these IQ tests for finding the "smart" kids?

you are so right shenLi!  the problem is that the test you take in kindergarten, it follows you around until you are in HS here in the US so if something doesn't go well, or you have a lousy test administrator, or your child is sick and this is the only day you can take it, or something happened at home with the dog, forget it!  and sometimes you can't avoid taking it.  however, if you can, i would avoid it as long as possible OR try to find out what they test and practice.  in my opinion, if i have to play this stupid game, then 2 can play at that game and i'm going to prepare my child as best i can.  right?
the doc :clown:

http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=244059

here's one site I found, some people provide their insite.  the user posting the question paid 5 bucks so I am assuming the answers might have some worth.

here another that talks about useful books:  http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,895567,00.html

I skimmed...you might already know this information. 

I think in general, why not search for IQ tests in a library or online (from a worthy site) and try to get your baby to master them. 

We are thinking about moving to CA in a year....just hearing all of this is scaring me!

Good luck...let us know how it goes. 

i'm in the process of finding out what is going on, what exactly is expected, etc.
i'll let you all know what i find out as i go.  wish us all luck.  i'm beginning to think that i should just forget about it and take my chances...
will keep you posted.  thanks again for the links!
the doc :clown:

Doc - I think you are on the right track.  I don't know about the Stanford Binet IQ test, but I've seen other IQ tests before and I reckon practice makes perfect.  I do believe you can prepare your child if you have the right materials and you know what the test is about so don't give up.

Greetings all:
I just came across this link and thought this forum might be interested.  I found it interesting how much importance schools put on such tests.  this is about the KBIT test.  i believe this child is smart, but after this test the school doesnt' think so. this is a perfect example of why it is important to know about such tests and how to fight for your child to get them into a gifted program. 
hope you guys find this interesting,
the doc :clown:

http://www.brainy-child.com/experts/KBIT-2-test-scores.shtml

here is the text:

 Q:  I have a daughter in the first grade. She is seven years old, and she said that "its boring in the classroom". I noticed to the school after I got a advice from after care personnel. She took a KBIT (which she did not know it was a test), and this is a test result:

Verbal knowledge Riddles Verbal
         27                      20                = 47 >>>>>>>111

Matrices Nonverbal
  33                                                = 33 >>>>>>>125

IQ composite   236 >119

The CST call me for conference, and finally they said that my daughter is scored 119 on the KBIT-2, and the CST is not recommending gifted evaluation at this time.

How to improve the KBIT-2 test? Thanks in advance.

A: Firstly, a brief overview of what the KBIT-2 is. The Kaufman Brief Intelligence Test, Second Edition (K-BIT 2) is used to measure verbal and nonverbal cognitive ability. It is used to obtain a quick estimate of intelligence, estimate an individual's verbal versus nonverbal intelligence and/or to screen to identify students who may benefit from enrichment or gifted programs. Additionally, this test is also able to identify high-risk children through large-scale screening who may require a more comprehensive evaluation. This test is developed by leading cognitive ability experts Alan and Nadeen Kaufman, therefore, it is assumed that this test provides highly valid, reliable results and is useful for a broad range of purposes.

Based on a mean of 100 and standard deviation of 15, your daughter scores are a little above average (about 85-115 should be within the average range on a bell curve). This means an overall score of 119 places him in the top 15% of performances (may not be enough for a gifted program admission). You may need to get the school to discuss the scores with you to find out areas that needs enrichment to make a more informed decision on catering for his learning needs. If the school decided that the scores do not meet the criteria for a gifted program, they may have their reasons for doing so which they should explain to you. Most schools have multiple criteria for admission into the gifted program and IQ scores are usually well above average for students to benefit most from such programs.

There is no specific way to increase the test score for K-BIT-2, but in general there are some methods that can be used. Practice makes perfect, so test practice may help the child be more comfortable with tests due to familiarity. Psychological factors also influence test taking to a certain extent so a child should be least anxious and nervous about taking any test. Sometimes parent expectations make children very anxious and affect the results. Physiological factors such as not getting enough sleep and fatigue can influence a child’s ability when answering test questions, especially intelligence tests that requires brain work. In short, anything that stimulates the brains - (reading activities, exploring, discovering, music, stimulating games, creative art, etc) would sure give one’s brain a boost.

Here is a website is quite interesting and offers a ways to boost your IQ.

Having said that, the increase may not be very significant for everyone. These tests are meant to screen some children who are assumed to require special programs to cater for their intellectual needs. A child, who is “forced” into such programs without having the right pre-requisites, may suffer educationally. For example, a child with border-line results is rejected entry but forceful parents practically plead to the school for an opportunity for their child - the child may not benefit fully from the program and may drop out, much to the frustration of both the child and parents. This is the same as other special children with learning disability who need a special program to cater for their learning needs but a normal child would surely not benefit form these special programs.

Therefore, by all means help your daughter with the test preparation but bear in mind that the school has set criteria for selecting students in such programs and selection is made quite carefully by a team of teachers and/or professionals. Best of luck!

Here's a quick update. I just toured a school with the required testing. Apparently in NYC they require an iq test in PRESCHOOL. And if you didn't take then you need to take to start kindergarten. So she was trying to out me at ease about the test! Wow! 

Anyway, apparently the test tries to find out id the child has real cognitive skills and not just learned skills.  So when the proctor asks "if you have 3bears and 2 bears went to sleep for the winter how many would you have left?" your child is suppose to talk through the problem and come up with the answer and not have to use a pencil and paper to figure it out.
So my question to you all is if we're all doing doman and shichida math and they ask that question and they answer it immediately, is it a learned skill or cognitive? And what about reading?  Are we teaching them to be little robots spitting out information or are they using their brains cognitively?

Any ideas you have I would love to hear!
Thanks,
The doc :clown: 

"if you have 3bears and 2 bears went to sleep for the winter how many would you have left?"

Hi....In my opinion when a child figures this out it is both learned skill and cognitive skill.   First, they have learned the language and learned what 3 and 2 and 1 mean.  And then, they are using that learning and subtraction that they have learned from parents and applying it in a new context which is cognitive.   What if a child says I still have 3 bears because just because 2 went to sleep doesn't mean that they are not there.   lol  lol....hahah

Similarly, reading can also be both cognitive and learned skill.  A child does not memorize every word once they figure out the phonetics they read.  When they are reading, they decode the sentence using learned skill and cognitive.  I think our mind puts all our learned skills and decodes and that is what contributes to our baby's and our intelligence.  And I think it is not wise for a school to separate it out and rate one skill like cognitive more as opposed to learning skill less.  Because a baby is really using both at one time.  If you give a child a puzzle, I think that might test their cognitive skill much more as oppose to asking them a question like the above. 

Anyway, in my opinion labeling a toddler so early with these tests is nuisance.  Because you are to some extent closing the doors for them, even in the minds of the parent.  I would be afraid if my daughter scores low that I would believe her less and if she scores high then I guess that would boost my confidence.  But I still belive in Doman thinking that testing is not good as they will learn that learning is only important because their's a test at the end.   I soo much rather just borrow the gifted education curriculums and teach my daughter on my own!  And then once she gets older....write her success story and send to all of the gifted programs!!  :P 

Regarding your previous post as to your daughters test...I think if your daughter is borderline the schools should take her.  To some extent I disagree with the statement that normal children should not be in a gifted program because the more you push a child's brain the bigger it gets.  If you only expose them to normal things they will only learn that much.  Their brains are capable of learning so much.   But I think it is also important for parents to realize if they in a gifted program that every child might struggle initially and that is fine and it is from that struggle that they will become more intelligent.  I guess the schools are afraid if the child struggles the parents will become demotivated and the child will follow.

Let us know how it all goes....we're learning a lot from your experience.  I hope your daughter does get into the gifted program..... If you do have their curriculum, can you share that with us.  I would like to know what is it that they teach in such "gifted" programs.  

Good luck....

thanks for your input ariel!
first of all, i agree with you.  it is impossible to tell if something is learned or cognitive, especially if they have been learning the way all of us teach on this forum.
second, my baby is just 14 mo.  the example i gave in my last post was from a concerned parent from a forum about IQ tests and she was freaking out.  i used it to show how educators in the states rely on these things, and it is really unfair.
unfortunately, that is the way the system works over here, so i guess you have to play the game.  i just don't want my daughter to be penalized just b/c we've been flashing bit cards and dot cards.

since she is really only saying a few words, i cannot tell if she is really taking this in.  we do TW, doman bits, math, LR, etc.  i'm going to trust the experts on this forum as well as the right brain educators out there and just keep doing what i'm doing.

will keep you up to date as i hear more.  i have another tour soon and i'll find out more about the gifted programs, testing, etc.

flashing bits and discouraged,
the doc :clown:

Ahhh I see...you received the post from that site. 

I know how you feel...we all feel this way now and then.  All this flashing is it memorization and are they really learning anything?  I think you should rely on several programs and incorporate many to prepare your daughter.  Puzzles I would say are most imp for any type of IQ tests.  The bits will increase the memorization skills and increase her curiosity.  I am curious to know what is your goal for your daughter?   and Do you live in CA or NYC?

well, i am sooooo glad i dont live anywhere like that.....i live in louisiana, and we dont have any kind of test like that to get into kindergarten, or prek..............please...........prek?.......how sad is it that this kind of pressure is being put on these children at such a young age........they will have enough pressure as they get older........cant they just enjoy being a child for just a little while......i am raising my granbabies, 5 4 2..........yes, i do things with them.......the 5 yr old is finishing kindergarten, and was an ace student...............teacher came from a catholic school for 30 yrs, and has raved all year about how smart she is...........4 yr just graduated from montisourri prek....the 2 yr old is still at home......all she wants to do is read....she cant get enough, as do the other 2.....we have done work books, writing lessons, etc.....they are all 3 really smart, but i have never pressured them, and dont believe in putting them in preschool untill 4 if i am able to stay home, which i am...thankfully.......everything is done at their own pace, and their own time.....nothing is pressured......i was the same way with my own kids, and they are all three very smart.....

well, i am by far not an expert in any of this, but i believe that what they are referring to as cognitive is their ability to apply concepts.....the concept of math and subtraction itself is a concept...being able to apply it in a particular situation is the cognitive part.....to just simply say 3-2=1 is memorized.....my 2 yr old uses concepts alot....she will tell me stuff like look i have 2 markers...she will put one behind her back and look at me and say now, how many do i have....she also has other ones too, that is just an example....

Just saw Stanford Binet IQ test kit on eBay. You might want to get it and "pull apart" see what it is about...

This thread is interesting to me because I grew up in L.A. and was educated in the LAUSD school system and I have a faint memory of being given an IQ test in elementary school, or some kind of evaluative test that must have gotten me on the list to be in 'honors' classes.

By high school I was doing speech and debate and became keenly aware of the private high schools in the county...there must have been private primary feeder schools to those high schools, and I'm assuming there was some kind of testing happening in the private school tracks.

My first instinct is to say you shouldn't worry at all because the kind of care and attention you give your little one almost guarantees you'll have an intellectually strong kid who will perform strong on any IQ test with no additional prep. :-)

My second reaction, after reading through the other replies, is that even if you wanted to prep your kid for an IQ test, I don't know if it's really possible.
You may want to read about the history of IQ tests, find out which kinds are administered at your desired schools, and maybe try to encourage your LO to practice thinking and reasoning in ways that are asked about in IQ tests - but that seems so hard to prep for. I had the impression that people with high IQ's simply solve problems or come to conclusions significantly faster than the average person, and I just don't know if that can be taught. Also, I can't imagine IQ tests can be memorized, or else how could it be trusted as a meaningful test at all? Anyone who studied the questions and memorized them would be deemed a genius! I think you can only hope to be aware of the types of intelligence the test tries to measure.

That being said, the book Raise a Smarter Child by Kindergarten does mention there are specific games and activities you can play to help boost IQ:
http://www.enotalone.com/article/11553.html

It also mentions diet and household toxins can affect IQ.

Also, a simple google search for "Prepare for the Stanford Binet IQ test" revealed many interesting links:

http://www.assess.nelson.com/pdf/sb5-asb1.pdf
http://www.brainbuildingfun.com/stinscfoed.html


HTH
mom2ross

As a school psychologist, I can tell you that practicing for an IQ test probably is not possible. Many of the tasks asked of one are not traditionally academic in nature. They do have to do with word knowledge or information and lots of other things that memory and visual perception. I supposed that you can practice stretching the memory or make sure that the vocabulary is good, but that is something that must be encouraged and nourished for years. A crash practice will not help much.

I do not give the Stanford-Binet, but even if I did, professional ethics would not allow me to comment on specifics about how to do well.

Most of those online IQ type things are way different than the real thing. In real life, the child will be using manipulatives, blocks, etc. Those online things are typically knocks offs and not reliable.

Yes, IQ does correlate with school achievement. There are a ton of studies that document that,  but there are many other factors that go into how well one does. We all know that motivation and persistence can be key as well.

Also, IQ at age 5 is not stable yet - I often see 10 to 20 point differences a couple of years later. This is because the kinds of things that are measured in a 5-year-old are different than what is measured later.  In general, age 6 is when IQ starts becoming stable.

So, I guess that private schools can give the test to get in, but I wouldn't worry too much. If you have been working with your child, then the child has developed visual, auditory, memory, and language skills that will influence the score.

thank you so much for your input!  very helpful!  since i posted this about 6-8 mo. ago, i have discovered that they are impossible to prepare for... other than the blocks, etc. 
now that my DD is 22 mo. she can recite the alphabet in english and spanish, can count to 20 in english spanish itallian and sign (because of the nanny) and is learning to solfege in 4 clefs (i am a  professional composer/conductor).  the is understanding shapes as well.  and just now is KIND OF sounding out words and can add and take away.  i think that is going to be a little while.  so we will just keep going!
i think the one thing that has always worried me about these tests is that will they recognize the skills she already knows, or will they not show up on the tests?
thoughts??
the doc :clown:

Learning all of those things helps to develop the cognitive skills that will show on those tests. After starting your baby can read with my daughter at 2 years 4 months, her visual perception and memory skills went through the roof. She is monitored in a longitudinal study as part of the control group (typically developing child) and she scored in the 99th percentile on a test that measures those things. At age 2, she was only around the 50th.

I would also do puzzles and talk talk talk. Language is highly associated with those verbal tests. I'll have to think about the reasoning tasks.

In other words, what you do at this age will affect the test scores more than what you could do 5 years from now. The brain is more plastic right now because connections are being formed.

An IQ test in kindergarten is crazy.  If he doesn't pass what, he does not get an education????? This sound crazy!!!!!!

Are you sure? A person can lose their license by selling this. It is called test security. . Showing everything off breaks test security and is a violation of our ethics. After all, if anyone could get a test kit, then the results would mean nothing.

This website will help you:

http://www.best-iq-test.com

The score you get with the IQ test is useless if the result's not compared with people your age. In accordance with fresh tests taken by men and women your age, our organization quantifies instantly all intelligence quotient scores to help make the evaluation of your own IQ extremely accurate. Moreover, we assign a rating in accordance with the clinically honored Wechsler Scale where 100 is the average intelligence quotient.

Las Vegas also does the testing for Private kindergarten. The girl I nannied didn't get accepted even though she could read and do basic math. She wasn't socially ready they said. I homeschooled her then she went to a public school and is excelling and has been accepted for GATE.

If any parts of the Stanford Binet IQ test is released to be practiced it would make the test unreliable and therefore unvalid. No one can or should have access to the test for practice or any part of the test for practice.

www.testingmom.com

I can only imagine how much research has gone into this. I like your writing skills as it makes one feel included in the journey. Thank you for the valuable notes.
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