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Author Topic: Prenatal Learning?  (Read 39300 times)
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MamaOfWill
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« Reply #30 on: December 10, 2013, 10:55:19 PM »

@robbyjo
So you've fine combed the entire internet on this topic, every language, all restricted documents and also went back in time just to check on the Egyptians and Mayans did you?  That's wonderful!  I hope (for your part) that you've not been doing your research the same way as you've been reading posts here because that would mean you've wasted a lot of your time.  (You can do a lot of research on any given topic and still only cover a fraction, so one should be careful when assuming you know all of any given subject)
 
I say again, I was joking about you providing proof of PL being absurd, but for someone who wants to play this scientific/logical angle, you're very quick to make all kinds of hasty assumptions.

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robbyjo
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« Reply #31 on: December 10, 2013, 11:26:21 PM »

@soccermom7573:
Quote
Where is the proof that Baby Plus is harmful?

The evidence is purely anecdotal---Scan over Amazon's negative reviews. Consistent autism reports, which might have some merit. Some deafness reports appear to have been deleted now. I am not saying that these reports are believable---everything has to be investigated. However, when you see dozens of similar reports, they may indicate something. This is why I said "could".

Quote
You state music and meditation has little to no help towards an unborn baby, and then say that it does? Yor opinions keep opposing each other. Therefore I think is the trouble we are all having with trying to understand what you are truly saying.

I have been saying that there's little to no support of prenatal music or meditation to the baby (but there may be sizable benefit to the mom). When you read dozens of articles on, say prenatal music exposure, and found half supports and the other half contradicts PL, what do you conclude? Especially so, when the paper I quoted above said "it is methodologically complex, has not been reliably confirmed as a method for the fetus, is non-physiological, and has been reported to occur in anenchepalic fetuses 2."

Quote
You talk about baby plus one second and then the concept of prenatal learning.

I am talking about both. Baby Plus is absurd. The concept of prenatal learning is absurd until it is proven otherwise, given the many difficulties, as the scientific paper I referenced says (and a lot more).

@MamaOfWill:
Quote
So you've fine combed the entire internet on this topic, every language, all restricted documents and also went back in time just to check on the Egyptians and Mayans did you?  That's wonderful!  I hope (for your part) that you've not been doing your research the same way as you've been reading posts here because that would mean you've wasted a lot of your time.  (You can do a lot of research on any given topic and still only cover a fraction, so one should be careful when assuming you know all of any given subject)

When you do research, you survey a sizable portion of *recent* articles (say, within the last 10 years or even newer). These articles *will* reference (a sizable amount of) older articles and summarize them to show that these authors do know their field and are not claiming things out of the blue. Such summaries are adequate most of the times and thereby saving the time of the researchers that come after these authors. The reference to older articles are useful to pull out details, whenever necessary. There is another class of scientific paper called "review papers" which summarizes ALL knowledge of the topic so far. There are review articles published every 2-3 year (depending on the field). So, you don't need to read absolutely everything. Just a good sampling and it will do. After all, PL is unlike archaeology, so no need to read ancient documents.

I already offered you the scientific articles I based my opinions on and you offered none. I am not sure why you are claiming me making hasty assumptions.

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MamaOfWill
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« Reply #32 on: December 11, 2013, 07:49:50 PM »

I admit that I'm too lazy to research this topic, I don't know much about the studies done and I probably made a whole lot of hasty assumptions myself, my apologies.  blink

Here's a link a friend just gave me (just for interests sake, not saying it proves anything):  http://bernard.pitzer.edu/~dmoore/psych199s03articles/Of_Human_Bonding.pdf

Maybe I've been living in this bubble where everybody agrees with the idea of PL and to me it became something that's generally excepted, maybe this assumption even drove me to see things during my pregnancy that were not really there.

Good luck robbyjo, have fun and I hope you find what you're looking for.

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Soccer Mommy
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« Reply #33 on: December 11, 2013, 08:00:32 PM »

I do not believe it to be absurd. I mean think about it, there were once people saying it was impossible, and absurd that babies can learn early...and look at this website. There are plenty of kids now with little reader, little math, and little musician. and they're all learning as babies. Something once though to be absurd is now a possibility and is in a lot of people's everyday lives.

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robbyjo
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« Reply #34 on: December 12, 2013, 02:26:08 AM »

I'll be brief since I have a lot of things to do.

@MamaOfWill:
DeCasper's paper is actually a seminal paper, showing that newborn younger than 3 days prefers their mother's voice to other's. This is a very old paper and groundbreaking at that time. The significance of the paper that babies start learning very quickly since they were born, quoted as follows:
Quote
Thus, within the first 3 days of postnatal development, newborns prefer the human voice, discriminate between speakers, and demonstrate a preference for their mothers' voices only with limited maternal exposure.

The neonate's capacity to rapidly acquire a stimulus discrimination that control behavior (15) could provide the means by which limited postnatal experience with the mother results in preference for her voice. The early preference demonstrated here is possible because newborns have auditory competencies adequate for discriminating individual speakers: they are sensitive to rhythmicity (16), intonation (17), frequency variation (1,13), and phonetic components of speech (18). Their general sensory competency may enable other maternal cues, such as her odor (19) and the manner in which she handles her infant (20), to serve as supporting bases for discrimination and vocal preference.

However:
Quote
Prenatal (intrauterine) auditory experience may also be a factor. Although the significance and nature of intrauterine auditory experience in humans is not known, perceptual preferences and proximity-seeking responses of some infrahuman infants are profoundly affected by auditory experience before birth (21).

To me, the last quote shows that this experiment wasn't designed to show prenatal learning (PL) since none was known back then. It was unknown back then how human voice could penetrate the insular womb condition that is full of loud maternal biological noise. Thus, the authors only sought early postnatal learning, if you will. If they really sought to prove PL, they ought to provide another group of infants whose mothers were forbidden to talk or to handle their babies until the experiment was concluded.


@soccermom7573:
I am open to the latest developments. I want to see how prenatal stimuli affect babies either immediately or in longer term. So far, the science is inchoate and it is not even there yet. I do believe that babies can learn from day 1. It has been proven for so many times for a long time already and it is indisputable now. The paper linked by MamaOfWill was published in 1980, which is talking exactly about learning since day 1.

You are entitled to your own opinion. However, I earnestly ask you to not brand any scientifically inclined people as unbeliever since it is simply not true.

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