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Author Topic: The phonics debate  (Read 64367 times)
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tatianna
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« Reply #15 on: October 03, 2008, 04:10:47 AM »

first off whenever teachers talk about how phonics is better then sight reading
they never talk about kids ages 0 to 3
there is a BIG difference in teaching a 1 year old and teaching a 5 or 6 year old

i have taught pre k to 5 grade for ten years in 4 different countries including the usa
and have never met a "super reader"
or at least not one that had reading problems later on

in my experience kids that start ahead stay ahead
i have never met a kid that could read by 3 have any problems reading
and i have met a lot of early readers

in the US there are a lot of kids with reading problems
the first school i taught at over half of my 2 grade class had very bad reading problems (this was in texas)
and all of the kids had been taught with phonics
none of the kids in my class were early readers by the way

i don't think the problem is in phonics or sight reading
the problem is teach kids too late
and teaching kids to read in school

it very hard to teach a whole class of 6 year olds how to do anything
and teaching reading to 20 kids is the hardest thing of all
there is very very little time for personal instruction
and if your kid is having trouble understanding or is simply very active forget it
so many kids get left behind not because they are not smart enough but simply because there isn't time  

i believe you can teach a baby to read well with almost any method
i am not anti phonics i just not think you need it
i have seen to many kids that read amazingly well and were never taught phonics
but just learned the rules all on there own
plus i think little kids find it boring
also a little baby understands what the word mommy means but what is a "b"?
so i do think that it is way easier to teach sight reading

by the way i lot of educators think you shouldn't teach little kids to read
but wait till they are 6 and give them to the school to teach
if anyone thinks that is a good idea than why don't we stop talking to our babies and wait for the schools to ruin that as well
my point is that just because someone is suppose to be an "expert" doesn't always mean they know what they talking about

when in doubt trust yourself your the parent and your the best teacher for your child smile     


 

 


« Last Edit: October 03, 2008, 06:57:08 PM by tatianna » Logged

aneta
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« Reply #16 on: October 03, 2008, 05:13:16 AM »

I think when it comes to english,teaching kids sight reading works well and  in my own experience they still read well by 6, or 12. They like to read a lot and that is the key later.
But with teaching other languages was a different story. When teaching them polish the same metod I found that most words had so many various forms were the root words are not so clear like in english.They had very hard time to see the conections between the words, so as soon as they showed interest I thot them polish alphabet  and from there reading progressed quickly.

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DomanMom
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« Reply #17 on: October 03, 2008, 03:38:30 PM »

Quote
i have taught pre k to 5 grade for ten years in 4 different countries including the usa
and have never met a "super reader"
or at least not one that had reading problems later on

in my experience kids that start ahead stay ahead
i have never met a kid that could read by 3 have any problems reading
and i have met a lot of early readers

I agree, it is so true that kids who start ahead, stay ahead. I have read so much research concerning this point, and I have never met or heard of a child who started to read at three or four years old and then magically turned into a poor reader when he got older, not even considering a child who began at two years, one year, or three months old.

The logic of the super reader would seem to apply, that is if "sight reading" simply means that the kids only "memorized the shapes". But that is not in fact the case, they read words in the exact same way we do - keep in mind the "Crmabdige Uvnisirtey" example. And, one way or another, kids will crack the code of phonics, sometimes if they're older it may take them longer, but nonetheless they will do it, just as all kids crack the code of English grammar, which is far more complex, far more irregular, and far more confusing. A kid who has been reading since three years old will not suddenly find his "visual memory" taxed out and be at a loss for reading when he gets to be eight years old - by the time he is eight, he will have had five years experience reading and I can guarantee that he has cracked the code.

And also to add, I have no idea where researchers came up with the idea that our brain has a limit of 2,000 facts. Our brain in fact has a limit of 125 trillion facts. Every word that we read well, we read from memory: restaurant, instruction, international, complication... let me ask you, did you sound those words out, letter by letter, or did you simple read them? How about this, 19864324, 98723421, 87234523... could you "read" those numbers as fast as you just read the above words, or did you have to look at the numerals one by one to "read" it? If we really were reading phonetically, it would take us as long to read the word "dictionary" as it does to read the numerals 3785044291 - they each have the same amount of characters. But in reality, we are reading virtually all of our words by memory. And new words, such as the nonsense word "flurpaltion", we read based on a memory of letter combinations, like the combinations "fl", "ur", "pal", and "tion", which we would sound out based on our memory of how those combinations are used in context, in words. So in a way it is like all of those little letter combinations are words in themselves, and we can decipher the word "flurpaltion" much faster than we can decipher the word qtxlpmrv because the latter nonsense word has no letter combinations (or, "mini words") that we have seen used in words so it takes much longer to try and sound out each letter one by one.

So, I understand that phonics is important - but then again so is grammar. And we never feared that if we don't start our two-year-olds in English class, that they will be speaking in non-intelligible sentences by the time they reach six. No, in fact all children, without any instruction, decipher the tremendously complicated, complex, irregular task of English grammar before their sixth birthday. And although English spelling is at many places irregular, it is nothing compared to English grammar. If we can have faith that our little ones will learn to speak it properly, we should have faith that they will learn to read it properly.

All of the "research" that is presented about phonics is 1. Research done in children who began reading at five or six years old, and 2. Usually neglects the science of how our brain reads words. I like tatianna's point when she says:
Quote
by the way i lot of educators think you shouldn't teach little kids to read
but wait till they are 6 and give the to the school to teach
if anyone thinks that is a good idea than way don't we stop talking to our babies and wait for the schools to ruin that as well
my point is that just because someone is suppose to be an "expert" doesn't always mean they know what there talking about

I realize that the point of people on here is not to stop early reading, or to pit whole words against phonics as if it's an either/or. But if a child begins reading as a baby and has consistent exposure to many words, there will be no read the teach phonics, and my main point it that parents should not be afraid of the research that says if they teach their child to read using whole words that they are setting him up for failure, because it simply is not true.

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Elizabeth

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DomanMom
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« Reply #18 on: October 03, 2008, 04:06:20 PM »

When and How?

One more thing I thought I would add is to let you all know that I am using some phonics and spelling with my son, who is 3 1/2. I began teaching him whole words and still do teach him whole words, but the problem was that we didn't start the reading program until he was almost 3 and by then, he had already learned many of the letters of the alphabet. Doman says you should teach whole words first, and teach the alphabet latter, because instead of kids simply reading the word "ant" they will exclaim over their old friend "a". Well, this proved to be true with my son, and because of it he was learning to read very few words because he was paying more attention to the individual letters than he was to actually reading the word. He would look at the word "cat" and say "Crystal!" simply because it started with a c. So in an attempt to get him to focus on the whole word, I have been spelling with him to get him to understand that different letter combinations make different words, rather than "C" always means "Crystal". If he has memorized that "c-a-t" is cat and "c-a-n" is can, he will never mis-read them.

Pointing out to him the different letter sounds has also been an activity of ours, to aid him in cracking the code, although we are definitely NOT going for a full-out phonics course because it is just too confusing to try and read words based on phonics rules (because there are so many irregularly-spelled words). All this time he is still learning to read dozens of words each week as whole words, and I consider this phonics supplement to be more "remedial" - after all, if he didn't start hearing English until he was three, he would need a lot of extra help learning how to speak and understand. This is just extra help that I am giving him to point out the code of English spelling, but we are still relying largely on whole words to teach and he is doing very well since we have been spelling.

Like I mentioned in another post, phonics has it's place in teaching older children, because they are light-years ahead in their talking as compared to their reading, so they will likely need a little help to catch up. But teaching a baby is entirely different, and the child below three is a linguistic genius and does not need phonics. Ideally a child would be learning to read at the same time he is learning to speak (beginning at birth, and getting consistent exposure throughout his first year to hundreds of words), and by the time he is old enough to learn the alphabet (when he's ready to start writing) he will have a very good idea on what sounds each letter makes and will not need any more help with that.

So, phonics does have it's place, and can be taught along with the alphabet if the child has learned many words up until that point, but ideally a child will have the opportunity to figure most of it out on his own, as tiny kids are geniuses at figuring out the rules. But as I mentioned in my previous post, parents should not be made to fear that their child won't learn phonics. They can and they will, and if they are older, they still can and they still will, they just might need a little extra help. And also a note for teaching older children, learning whole words is the best way to learn phonics, i.e. seeing letter combinations used in words. Another poster mentioned that most phonics instructions starts from the "top down" (with rules first, then the facts). We should aim to start from the "bottom up", with concrete facts first (words) and then the abstract, which is phonics. Older kids will pick up phonics much better if they have a large word bank of words to see those rules used in context.

http://worldsbesteducation.blogspot.com/2008/08/s-p-e-l-l-i-n-g.html

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Elizabeth

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Tanikit
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« Reply #19 on: October 03, 2008, 06:04:23 PM »

Thanks Domanmum - I think you covered that well. It is definitely different teaching a baby to teaching an older child.

Just to bring up another point - I do believe that whole words should be taught first (and like Doman says from there to couplets, phrases and sentences) but this implies starting in the middle really (you break it up to teach the sounds of the letters and at the same time increase the ability to read by adding words together to form sentences and then more complex sentences)

Now my brother was taught yet another method at school and it DID NOT work for him. He was taught a whole sentence first which was then broken down into phrases, then words and then finally letters and sounds (phonics) I have never heard of anyone else being taught like this and would love to know someone's opinion or research on why this did not work - I think he was just too overwhelmed by the huge amount of data that he didn't understand at the beginning.

The other thing I want to ask about is teaching young babies to read - children do not begin speaking in whole sentences - they say individual words (usually nouns) and then gradually couplets, phrases and sentences. There is the occassional child who starts speaking at two in whole sentences, but they are the exception and usually it is late talkers who do this anyway. So then, can a baby who cannnot speak in whole sentences learn to read them - if most children leave out "the," "and," "a" and so on then when can these words be taught and when will they read them reliably?

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tatianna
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« Reply #20 on: October 03, 2008, 07:10:50 PM »

karma to you domanmom
i think you explained it beautifully

Tanikit if i remember correctly you don't teach the words like "and, the, but, a" with flash cards
you wait till you start phrases and sentences and just add them in
it's to hard to explain what "the" means by itself but in a sentence it's really easy to understand why we need it

we can teach babies to read before they can talk
so we can also teach them to read sentences before they can say them
and for older kids reading sentences will help them to start using them early
and correctly by the way

hope that helps
tatianna

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Chris1
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« Reply #21 on: October 25, 2008, 03:36:57 PM »

Hi, some very interesting comments. I Would like to share my experience of teaching my three children to read and on their ability to spell. I followed the GD method and they acquired a large sight vocabulary which resulted in my children intuiting the rules and  reading early with impressive fluency. I avoided teaching phonics with my first two children until after they started school and they both experienced some difficulty in learning to spell. They eventually overcame these difficulties which i believe were a result of their ability to sight read without having to consciously examine each word. My son was shown sights words almost from birth and could demonstrate an ability to read at 10 months. After he had acquired a sight vocabulary of around 2000 words, i decided to introduce an element of phonics and introduced games like finding words within words. These additional activities gave him a deeper understanding of word construction and enabled him to spell extremely well. He never had to practice any of his school spelling lists and at around 7 years was tested by the school-it was determined that his spelling age was twice his chronological age.
Hope this was of some interest.

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tatianna
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« Reply #22 on: October 26, 2008, 12:23:35 AM »

what phonics program did you use ?

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Chris1
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« Reply #23 on: October 26, 2008, 08:54:22 AM »

I only used an element of phonics rather than a program and it was only introduced to teach spelling rather than reading. I very quickly went through the phonemes and went on to spelling words with sandpaper letters. Sandpaper letters to teach the letter shapes for writing. Examples of words taught- bad bat sat mat rat etc. My son was already a fluent reader and phonics played no part in teaching him to read. I had previously made the incorrect assumption that a fluent reader would automatically be a good speller. I only spent a few weeks encouraging my son to look at word structure and later went on to finding words within words. Sam enjoyed finding words within words and this was something that we did on a regular basis. If we were down town and i saw a good example i would draw this to his attention.

I fully agree with all of your earlier comments, Regards Chris.

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Tanikit
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« Reply #24 on: October 26, 2008, 06:20:03 PM »

Chris that is the first time I have heard anyone talk about finding words in words as a means to spelling, but it may explain some of my own early education as we played a game in our grade 1 classroom where we found words in words (a little like Boggle I suppose) - I have never had a problem with spelling but thought it was because I also learnt to sight read before school. Maybe there is more to it than I imagined.

I believe that there should be no argument over phonics vs whole words - rather both should be used - if the child learns phonics while learning whole words, then great (he/she still has both) and if a child learns to read words while doing phonics that is fine too. Obviously to start a baby you cannot begin with phonics as they have no understanding of an -ai or a -tion etc Babies are interested in meanings. You could teach a baby hieroglyphics (thats a word I'm not sure how to spell) and as long as it had meaning for them they'd be happy learning it.

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tatianna
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« Reply #25 on: October 27, 2008, 05:31:38 AM »

that is a very cool way of teaching phonics
my big problem with phonics is that kids find it boring
but play games with words seems like a fun unschooling way of learning phonics
karma to you chris  smile


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« Reply #26 on: December 13, 2008, 02:00:30 PM »

i use the flash cards method at first for phonics. its interesting for her. i started Arabic too. she is reading Arabic "DHALU"  as English "C". now she knows most of the letters as i started show alphabetic songs and very recently we stated using magnetic letters. very helpful. e likes the letter "x" and "s"

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« Reply #27 on: December 15, 2008, 01:10:57 AM »

Yes!  I am also interested in the "correct" way to point.  Can you elaborate?

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DomanMom
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« Reply #28 on: December 15, 2008, 02:44:35 AM »

Quote
Yes!  I am also interested in the "correct" way to point.  Can you elaborate?

Chispa, a great post on word-pointing was discussed in the Native Reading thread:

http://forum.brillkids.com/teaching-your-child-to-read/native-reading/msg7506/#msg7506

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« Reply #29 on: December 15, 2008, 04:45:03 AM »

Before my daughter went into kindergarten we started teh hooked on phonics program i had purchased. it was a pre k set that taught letters and there sounds. she did great with it..
but now that she is learning to read words they are actualy teaching them both methods.  She brings home these paper books they make in class.
Each page is the same sentece expect the noun is changed.  She had realized that she can look at the picture and figure out what the new word is.  They have a list  called "the sight words" of what they should know and they learn them threw these books.         I like the idea of the little readers sight words program but i dont think that the way her school is teaching her in these books is very good. 

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