3 Very Impressive Books That Have Changed My Outlook On Post EL Life

[Krista G]

     I know, Mandy.  You guys are expensive friends to have.  I always want to shop when I visit with you!!

[GeniusExperiment]

The Nurture Assumption is one of my favourite books and I read it three times. There are a lot of unusual ideas in the book but once I paid attention I felt a lot of it made sense. Especially the importance of peers and socialisation. I loved the story of the boy who grew up with a chimp and how rather than him "civilising" the chimp, the boy imitated the chimp because humans have better social skills. Very impressive book. Her ideas fly in the face of EL a bit - she basically says it doesn't matter in the long run if children are in daycare or with their parents. I wanted to believe this when I was working 60 hours per week and my daughter was in full-time daycare. But my instinct said it's not true and now in hindsight I am sure it slowed down her development and made her miserable and it still haunts me. But maybe the author is right that it makes no difference in the long run.

I've been very influenced by the book and she convinced me of the importance of peers and positive social experiences. I am actually placing this above EL in how I raise my children. It's extremely important to me that they socialise a lot and make an effort to make friends and get on well with their siblings. I do believe focusing on EL only if it means robbing a child of social interaction is very harmful (but I think one can easily do both). I am more than happy to do many hours of playdates and sports and free play all day, as long as I can squeeze in my hour of EL each day (sometimes it's one, sometimes nothing, sometimes even three).

I loved the book Tiger Mom but have not read the Triple Package - somehow I assume reading the summary will tell me enough so have deprioritized it.

I am reading Teach Like your Hair is on Fire and am enjoying it - I wouldn't include it in my list of top three most influential books though. I really love Outliers by Malcolm Gladwell.

[PokerDad]

Excellent post. It is an excellent book, and yes she would basically tell you that EL doesn't matter in the long run. This is where I think she goes away from her main thesis (which is very strong) into weaker territory. You also have to remember what, exactly, she's saying. I summarized it in the first post by saying children adapt to their immediate environment.

When you stick a kid in school or send them out into the playground for hours on end, the environment there becomes more important than if you didn't send them there. We all try to find our place in the world and children are no different.

The major lesson is, the environment shapes your child. If that environment happens to be the culture of children at the local school, then your child is being raised by that culture; and that culture will have norms, expectations, and values that can differ immensely from yours or your household.

If you look at the success of Rafe Esquith, he basically creates a particular environment, an enclave. Within his classroom are a completely new set of rules, expectations, and standards. He'll tell you that not all the kids buy in. I've heard him say "a third" in referencing what percentage of kids to ignore (yep, almost ignore though I think the word might be a bit strong... they don't want any part and so he won't waste time). It actually makes perfect sense. Within the school, his classroom is the superior one. All the kids want to be in that room, and all the parents want their kids in that room. It's a special status with it's own history (he has banners on the wall from prestigious universities with the names of the kids from that classroom that have graduated from it). The kids also know that society expects certain things of them (ie, to flunk, to turn to crime, etc) and so he can set up an us vs. them (I'll show you, I'm a Shakespearean!) Then the demands of the classroom culture (showing up early, staying late) - it's the Triple Package. It also conveys an identity that stays with the child for the rest of their life. Harris sets up a very similar example near the beginning of her book.

The part about parents "not mattering" is a bit overplayed in my estimation. I understand where she's coming from. In a typical neighborhood, you could swap out the parents but keep the kids in the same house and after 13 years of school, there's not a statistical difference between them. That makes sense. Where it wouldn't make sense is if you swapped out parents from the ghetto and replaced them with, say, Bill and Hillary Clinton (just using them as an example). Sorry, but there's a massive difference there. Part of what she says is likely (on a statistical level) if you keep the proper perspective.

13 years being raised by the dominant kid culture at your local school is a very powerful influence. Harris would argue, correctly in my estimation, that it will dominate any counter-culture you try to throw at your kid for the few minutes per day you spend with them (yes, MINUTES.... most US parents spend maybe 10 minutes of quality in a day with their teen)

Once you identify the problem (or at least the dynamic), you're now in a position to do something about it. Harris gives some ideas, but they aren't really expanded upon.

Homeschooling is one of the obvious options.

Finding a way to create an ideal environment (Rafe's class) would be another... if it could be done.**

Wouldn't it be great if we had local EL communities we could rely upon?

** this was the part where I was thinking about KristaG's family; she basically has this set up. There was a similar description of a man that had 5 daughters and basically said "that's all the socializing they need" and made the family a small little independent culture. His daughters, though "disadvantaged" from a demographic standpoint, had tremendous success (all doctorates except maybe one that was a registered nurse)... something along those lines though I might be slightly off in my description (I do read a lot and sometimes mix ideas, ha ha)

[Mandabplus3]

Perhaps the reason it makes no difference is the same reason education prior to school makes little difference. Because any kid who is at the top of the class basically learns nothing  until the rest of the kids catch up. The LEVELLING that is done in schools is discusting. I am seeing it with my own eyes. The worst place for leveling is grade 1. They want those kids levelled as soon  as possible it seems.

[GeniusExperiment]

PokerDad, I agree she exaggerated the insignificance of parental input, probably to provoke and sell more books. The only thing she says is really that they have little direct influence and that children look up to their peers more than their parents from an early age. But of course we have a lot of indirect influence. We decide whom we visit and interact with on weekends and afternoons, we choose the house and the neighbourhood we live in, we choose their school, so we essentially choose their peers to a large extent. So my takeaway was that if I surround my kids with smart, ambitious and well-behaved peers, it will make my job as a parent much easier as I don't constantly have to counteract negative peer pressure.

[akalori]

okay.  I just started "The Nuture Assumption."  I hope everyone is still interested in discussing it when I'm done.   My first thoughts are about subcultures with strong identities such as "geeks." My kids are geeks.  I'm a geek.  We watch the science channel, the history channel, the discovery channel, and of course The Big Bang Theory.  We listen to NPR on the radio, and read science magazines.  We shop for presents at ThinkGeek and the Marbles store.  Recently we decided that we need a family latin motto.  Star Fleet Academy's motto is "ex astris, scientia" - from the stars, knowledge.  Once our family motto is decided we plan to engrave it on the back of our watches to be worn as a talisman - like the words have power to protect and guide us.  I feel like my influence on my kids' behavior is insidious.   My kids haven't found their own geeky social clique at school yet but they are young.  In meanwhile we do the science fair, tried the chess club and robotics club.  At this pace, shouldn't the geeky clique find them and finish what I have started?  Can't parents influence a kid's social clique?  By the way, my geeky 11 yr old thinks the premise behind this book is very interesting and is trying to devise his own experiments to test out the importance of Nuture.

Good thread.  Thanks PokerDad!

Lori

[Wolfwind]

PokerDad, thanks for explaining more about the book.  From the summary, I wondered if I would bother reading it, since I believe strongly that parents and families CAN have more influence on kids than peers.  That's certainly true in my own life.  But I can see how kids raised by parents who fit the statistics of 10 minutes or less quality time a day, no family dinner, etc, would be more influenced by peers than family.  So if that's where she's coming from, I can see her point.  My library doesn't have the book, but I can get it if I drive to the associated library system; maybe I'll make the effort.

 I like the idea of setting up a family culture that is strong enough to be a major influence.  I think that's where my parents went right.  There were four kids in our family with an introverted mom who made an effort to get us to some event outside the family once a week, but other than that, we played with each other.  We were expected to spend time together and missing a family activity to do something with friends was so much not even an option that I don't think the question ever was addressed out loud.  And most of our socializing outside school was through our church, which I'm guessing is going to fit the Triple Package criteria (I'm hold number 80 for that one at the library).  I'm lucky that my family has a very strong church identity and the doctrine of our church puts a strong emphasis on education and learning as well as on close-knit families.  That probably helped my family culture as a kid and will hopefully help my family now.  Although a real-life EL group would be amazing!

Probably my number one post-EL book is Mindset by Carol Dweck, but I don't know what other two I'd put on the list.  The ideas of the Robinson curriculum and self-teaching, but that's not really a book.  The Self-Propelled Advantage is good, but it's all wrapped up in my head with the information on the Robinson curriculum and I want both in one source.  I just don't have one.  Oh, well.  It's always nice to have an opening for new favorite books; I get to read more!

[PokerDad]

akalori,

I will discuss the book at any time whenever anyone wants to. Having a family motto is a good idea - I read about the idea a few months back and I really like that idea.

Wolfwind - ha ha, 80 on the wait list. I've been there before. Not sure what my record is but I've definitely been #1000+ a few times on popular movies (which is less of a big deal since they might have a hundred copies, so a 10 week wait)

I think even if you have a basic idea of a thesis before reading, it's still worth reading because something the author says in their explanation might spark an idea or insight that you wouldn't have gotten otherwise. Having an idea of the book going in is also helpful in getting those insights in the first place and in remembering what you read. It's sort of like the Matthew Effect, which in my estimation is basically a LAW that applies to anything in the education/knowledge world.

Mindset is a must-read. When I read it, I could tell that it was the most important book of its genre in at least a decade, and since reading it, I can tell you that it's cited extremely often. There's a reason why... Mindset is pertinent to so many things.

[Frukc]

Just now, I googled
"Nurture Assumption" pdf
and I managed to get a free copy. The second link. I think, you should hurry

[Korrale4kq]

Sigh... I feel like I need to raid the piggy bank and buy some books. Sadly there are just too many to buy.

I have not yet read The Nurture Assumption but I will say I have seen what has been described with my own two eyes. I used to be a live in nanny. I raised a sibling set of girls from early toddlerhood and infancy. I was with those girls almost every day of their lives. I was actively teaching them and taking care of their well being for about 10 hours a day, for six years. Not at all like it is with my son, I can do my own thing all the time if I desire,  as I am not "on the clock" so to say. Point is. I knew these girls very well everything said to them was well considered. And they were great kids. They are now great teens. But there was a shift when they went to school. Who they were fundamentally changed. They became obsessed with things they never cared about before. They were talking different. They had a lot of attitude. They stopped enjoying family TV shows, calling them lame, in favor of the Disney channel that all their friends watched.
I nannied for a second family, a set of twins from infancy. Same thing when they went to school. They started teasing each other, calling each other sissy girls. They are boys. And they became obsessed with vampires, guns and iPads. Things that were never part of the family culture. After a few years at school their interests aren't in sync with  the family things that they used to enjoy. They are more obsessed with beating their friends on the xbox than going outside to play, or spending quality family time together.

[TheyCan]

I picked up Nurture Assumption from the library after reading this thread and I've now read most of it.  It really got me thinking because I had pretty much dismissed the big socalization "fear" after reading so much on the topic when choosing to homeschool.  It seems to be the expected question from non-homeschoolers....and homeschool parents just laugh to themselves because they've heard it a million times, right?  Anyway, it really made me think about what type of group my sons will clasify themselves to in their elementry years...and will they be accepted or rejected??  Right now, many of their friends are not homeschoolers (they have many neighborhood friends and also friends from sports) and I'm wondering what will happen in a few years.  They could easily be the odd ones out, right?  Even in church, they could be the odd ones out as advanced homeschoolers.  Is this the time to seek out a homeschool co-op (I already emailed two over the weekend! Lol) or some sort of club so they can see kids very similar to them on a regular basis and identify with them??  I  really hadn't planned to join a co-op because, frankly, I just thought our time and money could be better spent doing other activities.  Am I wrong?  And is it better to connect with other homeschoolers in general or with other advanced kids who may be in school?  Where do all the smart EL kids hang out?  Lol.  It's unfortunate that our piano lessons are solo because I know my oldest son could really relate to some of the other kids taking lessons.  What else is out there? Ideas??

Of course, I love the idea of the family being the main influence...but I don't have five boys (yet...) and I'm wondering more about what "requirements" are needed to make that work.  After reading the book, it seems that just (suppose..big suppose) the neighborhood kids "rejected" them for whatever reason...the damage is done and their personalities would be different.  I would think they wouldn't even need to spend much time with them at all for that to happen, right??  If that's the case, I might not have any control over it? Is something like that still as meaningful if they have another group that they're connected with?  I don't like that this book has me back to thinking about peers - LOL! I thought I had that covered .  I'm looking forward to reading the other two books!

[PokerDad]

wonderful questions! Now you're asking the same sorts of questions I ask myself.

Peer group is obviously very important. The problem is that these peer groups can be pernicious.

Mind you, what happens outside playing away from school can differ significantly from the culture and what happens at school.

Korrale4kq, great post. I've seen this with my own eyes as well, and I've also lived it. A few years back, we went to visit some girls my wife used to nanny. The girls would get along very well, and then just hanging around the house, I noticed a huge change in the older one. She would berate and take shots at the younger one. I knew instantly that this behavior came from her peers at school - where it's cool to gain a social edge by pointing out the inadequacies of others; it's a means of gaining social currency. This whole thing was subtle, not even my wife noticed it (and she prides herself on this sort of thing) but it was happening right in front of her!

I recently read Masterminds and Wingmen - which is a book about the boy culture, esp in the older grades (say 4th-5th grade+), and I read the book while also going through Nurture Assumption. Wow, what a depressing combination that was....

I think one factor to keep in mind is time spent. If the time spent is very low, the impact is going to also be very low. A peer group can be as few as one other person (though Harris argues this a bit differently). I speak from my own experience where I got caught up in a group as a child that did some things, as I tell my wife, that I will never ever tell her about (I don't think she'd be able to get over it mentally). There's a reason why the book spoke to me the way it did. There's a lot of truth in those pages... now what to do about it....

[Krista G]

Just a heads up to anyone planning to read The Triple Package, there are quite a number of obscene "F" words on page 14.  I was totally not expecting that.  I don't think that will be the standard for the book.  It was a quote, so I am overlooking that and continuing on.  I don't want anyone to run into that and be surprised in a bad way.

[PokerDad]

Wow, my apologies there. I didn't recall the obscene language, but that could be because that first chapter sort of impressed me and perhaps I subconsciously glossed over it. Gee, you wouldn't expect that sort of thing in book like that

 

[GeniusExperiment]

I am reading "Mindset" now based on the recommendation above. Am loving it. I knew about the importance of a growth and a fixed mindset but reading the book in detail also made me realised how judgmental and how trapped I still am in the fixed mindset, and how my daughter probably picks up on it, which is why she boycotts a lot of my EL efforts. I have to relax and have more trust.Thanks for the recommendation!

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