Bullies and victims - labelling toddlers

[McDume]

This post got me thinking (http://bit.ly/9JLxoR) because it's true -- even in baby/toddler playgroups, parents start labelling certain kids 'bully' or 'victim' or 'aggressive' or 'shy' when all they're trying to do is work out human interaction. The kids don't know WHAT they are yet. I think sometimes what we parents perceive as 'bullying' --grabbing a toy or pushing -- is just the way babies learn what's acceptible and what's not. When we step in to negotiate, nothing's gained. 

[kizudo]

Certainly.  I know that there are a few kids at a mom's group I used to attend that I didn't want around my kid...not that I ever SAID the word "bully" but I certainly thought that I didn't want my perfect child learning these bad habits (can't find a bottle face that has a tongue in the cheek!).  But I also connect with what the article says about parents not wanting their child to become the one that gets walked on until they just snap and go postal.  While I agree that they are just learning about interacting, I have a hard time sitting back.  Something I'll have to work on I suppose...or at least give it more thought. 

Thanks for posting the article - I forwarded it on to the moms I usually have over for "play dates".

[Twinergy]

Kizudo, the good news is you don't have to just sit back.  I really think there is a middle ground, something between enforcing the rules and letting them figure it all out on their own.  There are tools where you still let the natural consequences happen but act as a facilitator rather than a moderator.  The process involves assisting communication and directing the aggressive child’s attention toward the other child’s reaction without judgmental comments or labels.   I think this will help nurture empathy in the child rather than teaching him to follow preprogrammed scripts.  Here are a couple articles describing the methods:
http://www.ivillage.com/hitting-when-your-toddler-hits/6-n-146051
http://www.becomingtheparent.com/subsections1/question6.html
If you like them you can get the book, Becoming the Parent You Want to Be, I talk more about it here:
http://forum.brillkids.com/coffee-corner/twenty-alternatives-to-punishment/msg52071/#msg52071

Here is another thread of interest: it discusses praise.  http://forum.brillkids.com/coffee-corner/brilliant-kids-lack-confidence-the-perils-of-praise/msg49900/#msg49900  I linked to a specific section where I discussed an article.  The important part is that when a child is praised for sharing behavior, the child is less likely to repeat the behavior than if she wasn’t praised.  The article mentions that it is better to “gently draw attention to the effect of his action on the other person.” 

We talk about people’s feelings a lot at our house.  It is important not to use language that blames the child or makes them responsible for other people’s feelings.  It is also important not to assume other people’s feelings.  I might say something like: “R grabbed the toy from D.  D is crying he, looks mad.”  If I said “you made him mad” that makes her responsible for his feelings.  If I said “he is mad,” that assumes his feelings.  Other times I might say something different, directing my commentary toward him: “D you can ask her to give the toy back.”  This empowers him letting him know how he can use words to communicate his needs. 

[McDume]

Wow - TWINERGY! You are so much on top of it. Thanks for that. I have so much to learn with minimal band width. Thank you so much!

[Twinergy]

Thank you McDume.  I read a book recently that discusses bullying with teens and even some preteens.  I noticed your youngest is 8 years so maybe you would be interested.  It is called “Hold on to Your Kids” (preview here) by Gordon Newfeld and Gabor Mate and is about not losing your children to peer orientation.  Newfeld is a psychologist that worked treating juvenile offenders.  He really explores some of the more tragic cases of bullying.  The last section of the book discusses strategies to guard against peer orientation and includes a chapter called “Discipline That Does Not Divide.”  It is a fantastic book, I had problems putting it down.

[McDume]

Thank you so much. I've already ordered through Amazon! You're the best.

[kmum]

A preschool teacher friend & I had this conversation recently & she said that she sees 3 & 4 year olds already defining themselves in different roles such as these.  I was suprised to learn that it happens so early.

[tatianna]

thank for the links Twinergy
one thing that helps me is to say the rule, the reason for the rule and then a alternative they can chose to use or not
example "we don't hit (rule) hitting hurts (reason for the rule) tell her how you feel with words (alternative)
or "we not pull the cat's tail (rule) it hurts the cat (reason for the rule) you may pet the cat (alternative)

one thing i was thinking about as i read the original link is that young children are not developmentally ready for most play dates or social interaction with other small children
little ones don't "play together" they play next to each other or fight
to a small child "playing together" or sharing" simply means that they get less
less blocks, toy and most importantly less adult attention 
so i really think the best way to avoid conflict in small children is to limit contact with other kids outside the family
when a child is older around 3 (sometimes younger sometimes older, every kid is different) they begin to see a "use" for playmates and require a lot less supervision
besides what can a one year old teach other one year old?
how to be a one year old
children learn best and are happiest with their parents

 

[2010BEBES]

.....  Here are a couple articles describing the methods:
http://www.ivillage.com/hitting-when-your-toddler-hits/6-n-146051
http://www.becomingtheparent.com/subsections1/question6.html
If you like them you can get the book, Becoming the Parent You Want to Be, I talk more about it here:
http://forum.brillkids.com/coffee-corner/twenty-alternatives-to-punishment/msg52071/#msg52071

Here is another thread of interest: it discusses praise.  http://forum.brillkids.com/coffee-corner/brilliant-kids-lack-confidence-the-perils-of-praise/msg49900/#msg49900  I linked to a specific section where I discussed an article.  The important part is that when a child is praised for sharing behavior, the child is less likely to repeat the behavior than if she wasn’t praised.  The article mentions that it is better to “gently draw attention to the effect of his action on the other person.” 

Karma to you Twinergy for those links. My grandson is in his 2nd year of preschool (he is 3 yrs 4 month) and this year we are seeing interaction with other kids his age is much more than last year where they went to the class but normally play on their own. These links give me a lot of useful information.

[kizudo]

Twinergy, I like what you said about not making someone responsible for someone else's feelings and, also, not assuming someone has a particular feeling.  Good lessons I wish that I had learned.  I still have great difficulty with both, personally.  I feel guilty and carry other's emotional choices as my own and also assume people feel a certain way. 

How are your children demonstrating their knowledge of this on their own?  Are they at an age where they can communicate this understanding yet?

[Twinergy]

Here is a summary of milestones with sharing (from Becoming the Parent You Want to Be p323-326.)

Babies’ “sharing” is based on the delight of cause and effect, not on the more complex principle of empathy, which develops later on. 

Toddlers spend more time grabbing and holding toys than freely relinquishing them. Some continue to spontaneously “share” but it isn’t predictable or dependable.

3 year olds who have experience playing with other children will likely be in a got it lost it place with sharing.

4 year olds successful sharing and negotiating will happen in comfortable relationships often punctuated by loud power struggles.  We can support continued development of empathy and sharing by facilitating listening, negotiation and problem solving. 

Sharing will be an issue on and off during the next years but they will be developing more sophisticated language and negotiation skills to figure it out.

Many of these stages are dependent on other milestones such as concept of time, language development and reasoning skills. 

[Twinergy]

Kizudo , My twins started spontaneously sharing with each other around 2.5; a little ahead of the curve but they have a lot more practice than most children.  I suspect this is the case and it isn’t just experimenting with cause and effect because they will talk like they are thinking about it.  “D is crying.  D you want the toy buddy?  Here (hands her brother the toy.)  He looks happy now.”  They still lack the language skills to negotiate so I try to assist with that by facilitating communication.  “D just asked you if he can have a turn with the toy when you are finished.”  This usually works all day if it works at all.  Frequently one will just have an off day and the bad mood rubs off on the other.  In that case I have to watch them closely or they are in fight mode all day. So I guess now they are at the “got it lost it” phase.   In a play group situation my daughter is eager to share with others while my son hoards the toys.

I agree Tatianna, most young children are not developmentally ready for social interaction with other small children.  But with twins I had no choice.  When I started using these methods, at 20 months, things immediately improved.  If I was in the room and attentively facilitating communication (like I described above) fights were rare.   There are also lots of other examples in the book I mentioned which are more appropriate for older children. 

[McDume]

Twinergy is so on top of it!!! At the risk of being accused of spamming, this post from my parenting teacher calls sharing 'the S word' and speaks to Twinergy's quotes from "Becoming the Parent You Want to Be"... http://bit.ly/9v2QKX

[tatianna]

wow twins
you must have a lot of practice facilitating communication
that book sounds really great
i'm going to check on paperbackswap to see if i can get a copy

[2010BEBES]

A preschool teacher friend & I had this conversation recently & she said that she sees 3 & 4 year olds already defining themselves in different roles such as these.  I was suprised to learn that it happens so early.

kmum, i am not only surprised but also scared that they pick on my grandson.

....  It is called “Hold on to Your Kids” (preview here) by Gordon Newfeld and Gabor Mate and is about not losing your children to peer orientation.  Newfeld is a psychologist that worked treating juvenile offenders.  He really explores some of the more tragic cases of bullying.  The last section of the book discusses strategies to guard against peer orientation and includes a chapter called “Discipline That Does Not Divide.”  It is a fantastic book, I had problems putting it down.

Twinergy thanks for that book I will look for it.

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