Disciplining children

[Indidee]

Wow! this discussion thread did go everywhere except the one place it should have gone to. I think - and I might be wrong about it since I am not much of an expert - the one place a child learns to behave and manners is by actually observing what happens around him / her at home and at playschool. I believe a very violent, loud and brash atmosphere breeds a loud and brash child.  Again, i could be wrong because hyperactive children can still be difficult and it is a question of channelising their energies to the right direction.

I myself was of course whipped to be corrected.... but that did not make me a frustrated or abused child in any way. In India, it is considered COMPLETELY NORMAL to spank or even hit a child who is difficult at the time that they are being difficult.  For the same argument - that a child cannot understand what is good or bad if we spank them at a certain age - the child cannot comprehend a good and nice - you are not doing the right thing talk all the time.  Children are, by nature, curious and will try to do something that will be seen as not correct by "civilised adults" such as us.  Hence the necessity sometimes to drill this information in with a very mild reprimand even if it is physical. But the best lesson is to set an example ourselves.  Very rarely will children be difficult UNLESS they come from an environment where there is a lot of shouting or fighting or even arguments going on anyways.

I think this is where WE and OUR ACTIONS become important and effective.  WE need to do things right in order to expect them to do things right.  My mother for instance says - you cant expect your daughter to tie her hair up and keep it inorder UNLESS you do it yourself - Just an example.....
I guess a stern change in voice, a look, a voice modulated instruction should actually be among the first steps - if having a good talk with your child hasnt already worked.  

In India, we have a bit of an adage which translated means the following
Explain, Entice, Reprimand, Punish
1) Explain and have a chat the first time... be nice and be very soft and take the child into confidence to try and correct them
2) Entice them by giving them a reward for being obedient.  This should not be a habit as they are children - not animals. But they need to be rewarded at least with a word of praise - so they know they did the right thing and that was recognised
3) Tolerate but be firm - establish your authority and leave no stone unturned in doing that - they need to understand who the parent and hence the boss is - at least till they are adults themselves
4) Finally, if all else fails - punish.  not necessarily Corporal punishment - but some form.  All children are different and what might work for 1 child might be very very light for the other child.  What might be a minor reprimand for a third might seem like the end of the world for a fourth child. I am sure a mother of even many children will say it varies from sibling to sibling.  So I dont believe any 1 book can ever address the needs of all parents.

But going by this adage and another one which literally translates, "People who need kicks to learn wont and cannot learn by kind words".  It doesnt mean "kick your child" - but it does mean, words wont work all the time.

If we can strike the balance and set a good example - i dont think anyone of us would need to spank our children.

[Vidyut]

HELLO,
i am the mother of three children.my eldest son is almost 6 years old and my twin girls are almost 3 years old.all the three are very naughty.
i prefer to reason out with them when they do things like fighting,biting,hitting etc.,
but, by the end of the day i am so exhausted that i start to beat them and of course, they dont like it.
i feel very remorseful at the end of it.

what can i do?

Hi,

I can relate with your dilemma. I'm sure things can get much toward the end of a day of being constantly available.

Its likely my answers may not match many here, but I am totally anti-any kind of violence. It models 'might is right', which is something very likely to backfire on me once my kid is strong enough to hit back, simply because our relationship accepts it as a way of 'correction'.

I find it takes more effort, but creates a more intimate relationship to always be standing by the side of children, rather than in a position of judgment.

I once discovered that two children of my cousin whom i babysat often had problems with being violent with each other. It was a total surprise to me, since they were not like this with me at all. Their mom actually spent one day watching us in action, and for the first time, they had an all out physical fight, which quickly dissolved when their mom stayed out of it and watched as I simply threw a pillow at one, then the other, and turned it into a pillow fight, then a tickling attack and then we all collapsed on the carpet panting. We then moved on to something else.

That day, they also came up with more tales and complaints with each other, which I simply nodded and agreed that it seemed like that and moved on.

I find it more useful to not create highlights out of something I don't want fixing in their minds. Their mom used to 'correct' fights and faults reported, so they did that when she was present, but once they were non-issues, we got back to our routines fast enough.

Distraction, redirection and non-correction are my three secrets for wonderful behaviour. In short, me yelling at them not to make a noise doesn't hold much meaning, nor does hitting them for hitting each other. A problem can't be solved by becoming a part of it.

here is a quote from the email she sent a week later.

[Vidyut]

It helps to remember to be on the same side as the child, not an adversary. No resistance, no lack of closeness.

They feel hurt enough to hit out, distract, when things are calm, ask what had bothered them, and help them find alternative ways to deal with it.

Hitting out is usually when they run out of choices. Empower them with choices, and no one wants to be unhappy. Not an adult, not a child.

It is also important to empower yourself with seeing things as a choice. There are many things you can do, and you can plan them out for times when you are at the end of your rope, so that you don't 'short' into spanking.

For example, one child likes to play video games, another likes to follow elder brother. Evening, everyone runs low on energy, tempers are short, younger one clings to elder, elder gets anger, you can't cope, you get angry.

You have a choice. An example would be "Hey, little one bothering you? Go take some time off with the video game" (he is much more likely to go willingly than time out as punishment). Then take little one with you, do something fun for both of you (tickling bouts are good for no-inspiration times) and then sneakily take him along to watch elder brother play making sounds to keep him quiet (or he will come to know - make it a game). This way, you empower them to disengage from a volatile situation, rather than fall into it helplessly and get punished for something they were helpless to avoid.

Once you are more used to this, you can actually teach them to 'deal' with the situation themselves. For example, the elder could offer the younger an option to be with him that doesn't bother him so much, or the younger could learn to meet his needs to be with the elder without interrupting him, etc. Is there a possibility for both of them to enjoy the toy, to take turns, to find two fun things to do and swap? The possibilities are endless. You will be more relaxed without all the frustration in the air too.

Of course, this is an example. the point being that no situation is without choices. It is when we think we have no choice that we get violent.

[Vidyut]

I myself was of course whipped to be corrected.... but that did not make me a frustrated or abused child in any way. In India, it is considered COMPLETELY NORMAL to spank or even hit a child who is difficult at the time that they are being difficult.
...

In India, we have a bit of an adage which translated means the following
Explain, Entice, Reprimand, Punish
1) Explain and have a chat the first time... be nice and be very soft and take the child into confidence to try and correct them
2) Entice them by giving them a reward for being obedient.  This should not be a habit as they are children - not animals. But they need to be rewarded at least with a word of praise - so they know they did the right thing and that was recognised
3) Tolerate but be firm - establish your authority and leave no stone unturned in doing that - they need to understand who the parent and hence the boss is - at least till they are adults themselves
4) Finally, if all else fails - punish.  not necessarily Corporal punishment - but some form.  All children are different and what might work for 1 child might be very very light for the other child.  What might be a minor reprimand for a third might seem like the end of the world for a fourth child. I am sure a mother of even many children will say it varies from sibling to sibling.  So I dont believe any 1 book can ever address the needs of all parents.

I am from India, and I know no such thing. I was brought up lovingly, never hit, and I turned out to be a nice person too. I think it differs from family to family, like anywhere else in the world.

It is not reasoning if you *know* you are right. It is explaining your rightness. Reasoning is a process of thinking out, not justifying things already decided.

In fact, the most special thing about my upbringing was that there was no concept of "grown ups are right". When I was upset, I was asked why I was upset and helped to deal with that. I ended up learning about nurturing relationships. I (and two cousins who grew up with me - so its not a one-off thing) have yet to meet a child we couldn't 'discipline' and be totally non-violent with - no 'correction', yelling, insulting, dominating, dictating, telling what is right.... we use dialogue.

My friend lived in the apartment above ours, and her mother used to hit her. For years, she obeyed her mother, but she grew up to be a person 'following and enforcing' rules for herself, as well as her two kids. She used to hate her mother, but she still is okay with hitting her kids 'for the right reason'. Who decides 'right'? Obviously not the kid. What happens when you are old and your kid is an adult and in a position to decide what is right? She now gives her mother an allowance and insults her if she overshoots it for any reason, while still looking for her approval in other ways. Sad.

[Twinergy]

Hi again prihem,
I have been thinking more about your situation and even though I don't know any quick-fix solutions I may be able to offer some advice.  I am also the mom of twins, though I don't have an older child in the mix, and can really relate to your dilema.  Many of the more difficult aspects of raising multiples just aren't in the parenting books.  The hair pulling, biting and hitting are big issues here too.  Toddlers are by nature impulsive and they don't yet have the maturity to understand other people's feelings.  Fighting and hurting is a very common issue with toddler twins. 

I just picked up a book I read last year, "Becoming the Parent You Want to Be" by Laura Davis and Janis Keyser, and skimmed through the discipline section again.  It describes a lot of great tools that I use on daily basis and emphasizes talking and learning about feelings.  There are lots of scenarios and sample dialogues.  If you decide to get this book I want you to know that it is a reference guide to the first 5 years so much of the book you will be past already.  I highly recommend Part 4: dealing with difficult behavior and possibly skimming Part 2: Children's feelings for issues that are still age relevant.  There is a list of 12 strategies for cooperative discipline pp 226-239 that really has been my survival guide for discipline.  There is also a chapter in part 4 on when children are testing limits that covers things like hair pulling and biting.   I also just noticed a chapter on sibling relationships that I haven’t read yet, I guess I will be doing that soon.   I might suggest you check out the book from the library, if your library doesn't have it and is part of the WorldCat library network you should be able to order it. 

As for the fighting (with the exception of someone getting hurt or their food taken away) I let them work it out themselves and comment on it like a sportscaster, no judgment.  I let them draw their own conclusions.  Here is an example: “R just took the phone from D.  D looks very mad.”  Oftentimes this diffuses the fight, D feels like his voice was heard and that is the end of it.  If D continues to be upset I will validate his feelings; “It’s OK to feel mad, I sometimes feel mad too.”  Another tool I have tried, but my kids are still a little young, is to add something like this “R can you think of something that might make D happy again?”  This is leading her to concluding to return the phone to D without telling her.  My goal here is to get them to spontaneously consider other people’s feelings without telling them to.  That way the sentiment is genuine and more likely to happen when I’m not around.  These are some quick examples of the kind of discipline in “Becoming the Parent You Want to Be.” 

I also watch their moods and can actually see warning signs before biting or hair pulling happens and can redirect the behavior.  A big trigger is when they haven’t had enough sleep.  If this is an issue at your house too I suggest the book “The No-Cry Sleep Solution for Toddlers and Preschoolers.”  It has many, many useful tips for helping kids get better sleep. 
Another book I have found very useful is “Playful Parenting” by Larry Cohen.  The book offers a lot of examples of how to use play as discipline as well as play therapy, but can get a little repetitive.  The preview on google books gives the idea well enough that if you are creative you may be able to come up with your own solutions rather than read the entire book.  I have found the discipline techniques very useful in power struggles, such as diaper changes.  Now instead of fighting we play a game of “Peak-A-Boo Feet.”  We also use a lot of play to make trips to the grocery store more engaging.  Even though this doesn’t relate to the exact issues you mentioned in your post, I do find these techniques help save my energy and sanity by the end of the day. 

I have no experience with parenting older children, but I suspect Adele Faber’s books may be a good choice for you.  “Siblings Without Rivalry” and “How to Talk So Kids Will Listen and Listen so Kids Will Talk” come highly recommended in the Mothering Discipline forum I mentioned in my previous post.  “How to Talk …” is available as an audiobook as well so you can look for that at your library.

[Twinergy]

Prihem,
I almost forgot.  When one of my children actually does hurt the other I like how this article handles the situation.  It models the correct behavior rather than criticizing the wrong behavior.  When we use this technique with my boy, he always tries to be gentle, but he is usually so wound up at the time he doesn’t actually accomplish it.  We also work on gentle hands at times when he is calmer.  The only thing it doesn’t cover is what to say to the child who got hurt.  I like to empower the hurt child by giving them the language to tell someone to “STOP” hurting them.  What I really like about this is that it is giving my children the courage to stand up for themselves when I’m not there.  This will be very important in about 13 years when my daughter says “STOP” to some over amorous teenage boy. 



wenjonggal,
I think that the above article could help you too.  Young children have diffuclities processing the direction when you present it a what not to do.  I have read that when you say "don't xyz" they only hear "xyz."  Try rephrasing and telling him or modeling what to do instead.  I once told my daughter "don't climb the drawers,"  she repeated "climb the drawers" and continued what she was doing.  Then I said "feet on the floor, close the drawer" and repeated it a couple times, she followed my instructions. 

[wenjonggal]

"Have you tried praising him as you make it through each aisle, telling him you are so proud of him because he listened so well and obeyed you and didn't touch anything?  You can tell him that you are amazed at how much self control he has because you know he would like to touch but he doesn't."

Of course I do that all the time. I point out when his behaviour is ruining our nice time, and then tell him how it is, or what it would be like if he did it so it went well: "You and mommy just had such a lovely time at the library, and mommy just loved reading books with you and playing with you. But it makes mommy angry and sad when you act all silly and run around screaming and going spaghetti legs and not putting your coat on when it is time to go home. It would be so nice if you would say "ok mommy!" and help mommy put your coat on so we can go home and have some good soup for lunch!" And then notice it and praise the bejeezus out of it when he does do it nicely. In fact it is kind of a problem as now when he DOES do something nicely, he points it out, and says "Mommy say thankyou? I say "ok mommy!" and put on my coat. I no be silly today when time to go home. Mommy say "Thankyou to me"?" And then when I say "oh, yes, that is wonderful! Isn't it nice to have a good time instead of fighting! Thankyou!" he replies "you're welcome mommy"... agh.

I know it almost sounds ok, and it is nice that he can rationally think of the wrong and correct behaviour and point it out: "mommy! I no say "okayokayokayokay" not nice to Mommy, I say "okay mommy!" nicely. Mommy say thankyou?"... but dang, it is NOT a favour to me that he just acts normally that I should be called to thank him for every time he acts just normally. But yes, I model the behaviour I dislike (and no, it isn't usually breaking things or hitting or anything, usually backtalking or refusing to do something saying "I WANT" or going all silly and goofy and refusing to cooperate while laughing and going floppy) and say "It isn't nice/ I don't like it/ it bothers everyone/it's dangerous when you do this" (whichever is appropriate) so he is clear WHAT I dislike (not so sure he knows when he is being impossibly goofy that he recognizes what he is doing if not), and then model the behaviour that would be appropriate... and he can usually clearly articulate what is right and what is wrong. And I point it out, and praise him when he does good, and I do tell other people in front of him.

But yeah, sometimes the problem IS me having been playful with him, trying to turn a task into a game (he now wants to play hide and seek for ages when I come to get him at the daycare, or when he is supposed to go to bed). Or having him help at grocery shopping (who knew he could chew right through a whole bunch of carrots or a package of cheese within a bag! I got him to carry that instead of something breakable!)... and yes often the problem is him NOT wanting to QUIT a fun activity with me... he gets goofy, so if I say "who can get dressed to go out the fastest?! let's see!" he will often rush about laughing and throwing clothes everywhere, putting the coat on his legs instead of his arms, etc etc... which is REALLY frustrating when you are trying to get him to the bus stop on time or daycare before the cut off time. Anyways, I'll look into the books you suggested, and let you know what I think of the PET book.

And I am still a bit boggled by the pinching upper arms. Dang. ouch. Just reminds me of characters in movies who pinch kids in church while staring straight ahead, or pulling their ears. My own upper arms just cringe just thinking about it. On the other hand, my mother would put her teaspoon in her mouth and draw it out REALLY SLOWLY while looking at us if we were fighting at the dinner table.... we'd smarten up pretty fast as we knew if we didn't it would shoot out and bonk us on the head. Caused zero pain, it was just sort of unpleasant and you didn't want it to happen... so yeah, just that spoon slowly coming out of her mouth upside down and we'd settle down! LOL! I guess that is a less nasty example of a similar thing.

[patreiche]

My grandson is the same way. He is very energetic, all boy, and very playful. When you are not trying to get something done it is not so bad, but when you want to accomplish something it is a problem. He eventually grows out of his bad behavior by being consistent and following all the wonderful non-violent solutions, but it is tiring.

I understand that pinching his arm is a faster solution to the problems. I understand that the parent or caregiver should be in control. Yes, I watch Super Nanny but I don't think she ever uses violence. I think some children just challenge their parents or grandparents more then others. I will try to incorporate some more of the very good non-violent solutions I have received from this forum. I will let you know what works best.

I just do not think a 2 year old requires violence. When he was only 18 months old, my neighbor was mean to him because he went into her garage. I just can't understand being mean to a child. I understand how tiring it is. I understand how parents want their child to be the perfect little angel and have everyone comment how well behaved their children are. Trust me I would like to hear these comments, but not to the determent of the child.

My mother method of discipline was to be violent with us. We were generally well behaved because of the threat of violence. The violence was not normally required and very rare because we knew it would occur. I grew up not really liking my mother. I respect her and have a distant relationship with her, but I never went to her with any problems I ever had.

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