At what point/age do you insist on obedience/participation with learning?

[TheyCan]

My son just turned four and I have been wondering at what point is it good to insist that he goes along with whatever learning activity I have planned.  Up to this point, if he was ever clearly not interested in something - I dropped it.  I have also constantly analyzed the "why" when he wasn't interested - is it too boring? too easy? too hard? is he tired? hungry?  have I asked too much of him?  did I not make this exciting enough? did I not present it well?  etc, etc.   Well, as he gets older, at what point does it become ....umm "you need to do this because Mom says so"  : ). 

It seems that if I insist he completes a task (I'm seriously talking about VERY simple two minute things here that are NOT too hard), I would appear to be the sterotype for parents of advanced young kids.  I would also worry about hurting his love of learning.  But...if I don't insist, I wonder if, at this age, I am setting up bad habits for learning as we advance.  I plan on homeschooling and at some point down the road, it would be nice to have a student do their math or whatever else whether they want to or not - right???  Is this expected in Kindergarten in the public schools?

I would love to hear how people have branched from early learning to more structured learning.  Any other thoughts or experiences??   

[Mandabplus3]

Oh I remember this time, my son occasionally revisits it.
Anyway I think the time to begin knuckling down a little is from about age 4. ( sometimes earlier but that depends on the kid) And yes if you don't, you are setting up for a continued pattern. At some point kids need to learn that some things just have to be done.
In a preschool ( montossori is different) setting there are many activities that kids are expected to complete or at least participate in. I think that is the key...participate in. I wouldn't expect a just turned 4 year old to complete an activity that they just wernt interested in, however I do expect them to give it a red hot go! by the time they are 5 I expect completion ( unless of course you realize it was too hard) in Australia 4.5 year olds attend school and they are expected to do ALL activities soon after the first week. By week three they all just do it!
If you are planning to home school gently introducing the expectations now is a great idea. While you have the leeway to cave occasionally.  I would start setting up a consistent routine, one small activity chosen by mum and one chosen by the child. Or every morning after breakfast we are going to do this, and this then we can play outside. Keep the activities short and fun until the routine is established.
You don't want them to think education is a drag but you do want them to know it's important and that effort brings reward! ( in this case the reward is knowledge but could temporarily be something physical)
My son is 4 now I expect him to practice piano when I tell home to and do LR when i tell him too. ( along with get dressed, eat lunch and everything else mums already 'demand' from our kids  ) plus he does a page of math problems each day. Anything else we cover is a bonus. He always listens to at least 3 books a day ( never says no to a story) and watches an educational DVDs ( never says onto that either!  ) I do try to teach while he is playing and teach while we are cooking together also.
Both the girls were doing what I asked them to do earlier than their brother. But I am a more relaxed parent third time round so that's probably why! 

[Tanikit]

My DD was 4.5 years old when I started to insist that she do certain things and we started a slightly more formal program - that being said though I did also make sure she was not hungry or tired before I started insisting on anything and if I felt I may have made a mistake then I was also willing to stop if necessary - she does a full worksheet of Horizons Math daily now though every now and then when she seems offish I drop it to only one side of the worksheet. I also insist that she copy a sentence a day for handwriting and read a selection of a book that we choose for her reader - she chooses sometimes and I choose for her at other times. The rest - science, history, geography etc I will still stop if she complains and the reason for this is that she usually really enjoys and wants to do them, so if she's complaining then there is most likely something wrong. From next year January (she'll be 5yrs 3 months then) I will start expecting more and will probably add in a silent reading period and expect some creative writing (not copywork) as well.

At the age of 4 what has worked for us is to do things in very short intervals - so 5 minutes of reading and then a longish break then 5-10 minutes of math and then a long break and then 5 minutes of writing - expecting much longer periods of concentration would not work for my child. How long you expect your child to concentrate would depend on the child, but keeping it short works best.

[shadahfree]

At 4 I expected a handwriting paper, a reading lesson, reading and EK cards, and piano practice every day. Read-alouds at night are also not optional and they are my pick. Other read-alouds, crafts, and at this point math I don't push. If it's not going well or I can't get her interested then we switch to something else.
Also, if she asks to do something I make her follow through. I got tired of coming up with stuff on the fly and then she wouldn't finish. If we start a book, or a chapter, or a craft,etc., I make her finish.

[CVMomma]

This is something that I have wondered about too.  I know that I expect more out of my DD than other parents seem to of children the same age, at least with everyday activities.  I can see how that has paid off whenever we are around other kids.  I see other 2 year old's who can't pull their own pants up, let alone get them on frontwards; and my daughter has been completely dressing herself (unless a shirt has snaps/buttons in the back) for several months.  Other kids can't finish what is on their plate--and then expect a snack a few minutes after they eat.  We have always given logical portions and expected her to eat it all, then she can ask for more if she wants it.

But, what about school work???  When we started LM, my DD didn't always want to sit through the whole lesson.  She had barely turned 2 at the time, but I would just have her finish the short lesson we were on and then minimize it and do a short time of LR (which she always LOVED!!).  Then we would go back and do another short lesson in LM.  I guess that I didn't want her to just assume that if something isn't fun, you can quit.  We always made a big deal out of finishing each short lesson-- Lots of clapping, cheering, etc.  Now she sits through the whole session with no problem.  She even points out the numbers that she knows and seems quite proud of herself each time she knows the answers.

I know with early learning, it is only supposed to be done if the child is having fun.  I try to make it as enjoyable as possible.  And, of course, if she is tired/ hungry I expect much less out of her.  Sometimes now when we go over cards, she says she doesn't want to do them.  So I set most of them down and show her a small stack, and say, "Let's do these.  Then you can go play."  We get through the small stack and quite often she will ask for more    Silly children, they just often don't know what they want!!!

Obviously, since she is only 2, I wouldn't expect her to write something.  But she plays a lot with writing things, and I encourage her along.   If you keep their expected learning to things that you know they can handle, is it really asking too much of a child small amounts at a time?    She still loves to do anything that has to do with school work.  She thinks it is playing, so I don't think that I am being too hard on her.

If I expect her to do tasks in her everyday life, why not do the same in learning??  For example, we just started walking on a 2x4 as a balance beam.  I do not expect her to do it perfectly yet, but I do expect her to give it a try.  We make it lots of fun!!!  Both of us end up in gales of laughter at her attempts (and mine ) But she needs to try for a reasonable amount of time.  A child of any age is much more proud of their achievements if they had to work at it.  She seems quite pleased with her accomplishments, so does that mean I'm not asking too much of her?

The last thing I want to do, is ruin her joy of learning , so I would like to hear others' opinions on this subject.

[TheyCan]

Thank you very much for all of the encouraging replies!  They were just what I needed to hear.  It has made a big difference just in the last few days - just in time for the new school year !  It didn't occur to me until today how much this is probably tied to not having a set routine our days (it's kinda been crazy since his baby brother was born).  Now, I'm having him do our learning as soon as his brother takes his morning nap and he knows exactly what is expected of him.  It's really been great the last several days.  I feel like an offical homeschooler now!!  .  It pretty different from our very early learning days of showing him cards randomly throughout the day . .   

[bella]

i enjoyed reading all those replies . I hope somebody would address the issue of homeschooling more than one child . I have a six years old very good reader, good handwriting  who is really interested in learning but obviously still need mama help to advance . and we have also a 3.5 years old . I really find it very hard to juggle between both of them . My thre years old is happy doing short activities but then he would want to go out and play which what his sister did at his age ( no formal long hour schooling ) . She is six and she obviously need and can do more , but little brother wants mama to go out with him , get ont he floor and play cars with him , dig in the sand pit ...i did it all with his sister and i find it very normal for a 3 years old to want to play with his mummy . but how can mummy do that if she is big sister teacher also .We tried schooling during his nap time , but it is not enough anymore .I can seen him getting jalous from the one on one i give his sister. As soon as we sit for a lesson that needs me , he would be happy playing , he comes over and asks for things constantly , sometimes pull me away to show me something , or brings his oen books for me to read to him . And i feel this interruption is preventing my six years old to really focus and get the most out of her work . an example of our work would be a chapter from story of the world , followed by some activities, coloring pages and map work . i would like us to read the chapter together wih her then she can do the activities on her won . Our lessons in rightstart math are also teacher intensive and need one on one . i often give him few things to do while i am working on her lesson . He doesn't get it that she needs my hel . he ofen says mama you need to show me too , work with me . he won't do anything alone
and i think because he sees me workign with his sister.
Oh and read aloud is a struggle . Reading 2 sets of books because they are at different level and got different interests .
i hope somebody would share how they are doing with their own kids .
thanks
viv

[TheyCan]

Bella - Oh dear...those will be the ages of my boys in 2-3 years and I was hoping things would get easier .  Does one wake up before the other?  Can you get some school time in then?  If not, is a spouse available during those early hours (before work) to watch your younger one and help get some school in?  The same could be looked at for night time - can you do read alouds at night after the little one goes to bed?  Also - could you school the older one while the younger one ate? watched an educational video? took a bath? played with starfall? have quiet reading time in his room (if he doesn't take a nap)?  Also - I suppose (kind of back to my orginal question/post) - once you felt it was appropriate - you could just insist that your son not interupt for a certain period of time.  You could also utilize audio books for either child. 

I'm pretty interested in this topic because I've always wanted a large family...but with early learning...I don't know how one does it!

[TeachingMyToddlers]

I stumbled upon this blog post from a mom describing her transition from "tot school" to "pre-k" and thought of this post. So here it is..

http://www.1plus1plus1equals1.net/2009/05/behind/

I also realized that "tot school" is a term that many homeschoolers use for what we would call early learning. So, some googling might lead you to some more fun blogs.

[Tamsyn]

This post is right up my ally.  It's nice to hear an update, Viv!    So, I guess I have what you might call a big family, or at least I have my hands full, with four little ones and the oldest is Kindergarten age.  I've been wondering about insisting on school work as well. 

Up until now, learning has always been a joyous, fun activity, and my oldest has done very well with just that, but I know that there would be holes in his education if I don't start pushing some subjects.  Writing is my prime example.  He just doesn't want to do it, but he's going to learn this year!  It helps that I tell him that his friends are all going to public school, and he would have to learn anyway, so he might as well get it over with.  There are a few other subjects that I'm going to push too, but overall, he is a self-motivated learner.  He just got his first library card, and he loves to read, so most subjects are pretty easy to incorporate.  I'm a little nervous about some of the subjects in the older grades, because, although I have managed to make learning fun up until now, eventually he's going to have to put some work into it.  Thank you for all of your comments!

As far as making EL work with multiple kids, it actually isn't that hard.  We read a lot of books together.  I'll start with simple, short stories, and when the toddler's attention span ends, he leaves and I just keep reading to my 3 and 5 year-olds.  I finally bought Little Reader (it came in the mail today, YAY!!), and I can't believe I waited until now to get it.  I worked so-o-o hard making flashcards for my oldest, and researching how it all works, and with Little Reader, I just have to push play.  I bought it because it will save me a lot of time.  I want my younger kids to learn how to read, but I also know that I need to focus on my oldest' education.  He's the trailblazer for our family's education, and if I can figure out what works for him, hopefully most, or at least some, of it will work for the younger kids and I can just move them through the system.  Anyway, the reason I brought up Little Reader is because my oldest child (Peter) was the most excited about the materials.  He set up our folding kid table, put the chairs at it, got the phonic flip-cards, opened up the books, set them all up, and gathered his little siblings to the table and told them that he was going to teach them how to read.  Then he read the stories to them.  It was super cute.  Peter has taught Helen(3) how to navigate on the computer, and they both play Starfall together, and Patrick watches when they do.  I used to sit at the computer with Peter to play Starfall and it took a nice chunk out of the day.  Through their own computer play, my toddler has learned his ABC's and how to count to ten while I was in the kitchen making dinner or nursing the baby in the other room.  I strongly disagree with Doman's encouragement to space kids three years apart in order to devote that time to their education.  You can space them like that, of course, but you don't have to in order to do EL.  (I love Doman, I just didn't like that piece of advice).  The oldest's abilities trickle down to the younger kids.  Of course I still spend a lot of time teaching my younger kids, and my home is less clean then I'd like it to be (understatement of the year), but my kids are happy, well fed, and as a special bonus, they can read.  So we're doing all right.

[bella]

good to hear from you Tamsyn .
A big chunk of my time still goes to my specialneed quadriplegic daughter which recieves from me intensive therapies , added to daily regular care , feeding . She is a super smart young girl doman was great success for her but physically it is like caring for a 3 months old .
don't worry about peter writing ,i did with tina and now i laugh and decided to be more relaxed with matti .Tina never sat with a pen and paper , i had an easel for her and she would scribble draw , write, well she always said mama look i am drawing my letters  on the easel , i often got the camera out and took photos of her work so i can have something to remember from her work . SHe had a very close friend who went to school , completely different character, at the french school they focus so much on coloring in and graphism , and writing , a child would have amazing handwriting by six but probably still doesn't understand what he is writing   ,...she was a quiet little girl happy to sit and make puzzles , color in beautifully . Tina is very physical , vocal , great reader . i found those girls complement eachothers , her mum would say i pray that T ( my daughter )would encourage Z ( the friend ) to speak and read ,... i hoped Z 's company would calm down my daughter inspire her to do more table work puzzles , writing ,...
hmmm they will both choose a beatiful picture to draw , girls love princesses right , Z would sit and put in beautiful details my girl would grab one color pencil color in and shouts mum i am done can we go on the trampoline now ,

fast forward , age 5 i was desperate wanted to teach tina to write , i mean she could write all her letters , she has amazing narrative skills , i tell you this girl can talk , but when she writes a word would fill a whole page . i just bought a full sheet of plywood , painted it with chalkboard paint and made a massive chalkboard on our veranda , i spent few minutes every day while playing ( she likes to play teacher  modelling writing letters . After discussing with a french teacher , i decided since she is a reader already , i don't need to work on her perfecting her print and work with cursive instead . She could see her other friends writing in cursive and she herself was attracted to this beautiful style of writing.
I cannot tell you how it happened but honestly like alight bulb turned on in her head , a friend came visiting from canada and got her a very nice fairy coloring book , i always felt those coloring books are wasted in her hands , not this time , i had to ask her to stop , she would sit for hours working on all those small details wiht so many different colors . by this time we were already reading french from book that uses lots of cursive writing , we already went through many lessons but skipped the workbook because i felt she is not ready , when i saw her sudden interest in writing i photocopied the workbook and gave it to her , and you cannot believe it it is the first thing she asks for in the morning , and i mean it is not just alphabet writing book , it is advanced second grade work with comprehension grammar ,... all i had to do is print a page with the alphabet in both print and cursive and laminated . she used it as reference if she didn't know how to write some letters , but now when i ask her if she needs it she says no . She is now doing all her work english and french in cursive , she has beautiful handwriting .
the only thing i introduced was not writing worksheets but a special book recommended by a mum who created a blog about teaching boys. the book is : write from the start , i highly recommend this book . it doesn't have you trace letters instead gives you series of exercises mostly drawing that would help develop perceptual skills to lead to good handwriting . there are two books , we worked half way through the first one , and of course not unusual in our house we dropped it completely , i think her taking off with writing and us spending more time doing it made us stop this book , but this week i was flipping through it and decided to continue from where we stopped , i thought it would be something to keep her busy with while i am working withe the other kids .
i really recommend this book . you should check it out .
hmm this post turned out to be a post about writing , will write some more later about my struggle teaching more than one and the crazy ideas i am coming up with , like sending one to preschool for half a day , giving me a chance to focus on one in the morning , then work with the other after school , crazy i know , i love the time they spend together , their bond , the way they play , how unfair would be for the one sent away , because i do know the little they are getting with me is still much more than what they could get in available schools around us .
I try to do it like you start with easy readers simple books then once the little one goes for his nap read more interesting chapter books with Tina . Unfortunatly our little man decided he is too big for naps now and reading before nap can drag for ever , taking away what used to be precious teachable time for Tina ,
which brings me to reading and hope mums of older kids join in the thread .she is an amazing reader and she is capable of reading chapter books , but she still prefers to go for short illustrated versions , and only read chapter books with mama , taking turn i read one chapter she reads the next one , she would be in tear when i tell her i need to stop and encourage her to carry on if she really wants , she won't she would prefer to wait so we can read together . i just miss the long hours we used to sit and read and how much material we could go through . We are still reading but considering i have to read two sets of books different interests, different level ,.. i feel we are doing so much less . i feel bad when she waste an hour sitting around listening to me reading simple stories for her brother when she could be using her time in a better way . She does read for him some though .
and talking about school , you often hear me threatening them with sending them to school if they don't work with me  i know it is bad i made it sound like going to school is a punishment , i will be in trouble if the day comes and i would really need to put them in school . She is six and on our agenda : history , geography, science, spelling , grammar, french , writing and narration , math ... i am just unable to fit all of it anymore during little brother nap , or early morning before he wakes up . I set up some school time for her but little bro sudenly becomes loud demanding my attention and hers , physically holding us by our hands to come and see what science experiment he is doing , what lego house he built ... or he doesn't stop chatting loudly with us. So poor tina doesn't have quiet peaceful time to focus on her work , not sure how bad this is for her learning but i know myself i am unable to teach in loud chaotic environment which my little boy is able to produce . We tried working in the evening when papa comes from work and can take care of little brother , tina found it unfair that she doesn't get to do things with dad when he comes from work and has to do school  instead .
woops electricity went off , will continue venting later. looking forward for more on this please xxx viv

[Mandabplus3]

You know during the times I am trying to teach all three kids at once I spend my entire time on my feet going from one to another! It's quite exhausting. In saying that I don't always have the luxury of having them work within the same subject or curriculum at the same time. Ours is more of a you need to read, you need to do your spelling homework, and you need to do the math and then your comprehension. If you finish in time you can do a drawing lesson and as soon as you are finished, do some Japanese... Yes DVD is fine Oh and I need to hear someone playing the piano today! at least one of mine works mostly independantly, but with CONSTANT reminders to stay on task. One of them will work quickly to get free play time too. It is a little easier as the youngest one hits the independent age 4 ish.
I don't see having Tina listen to the simple stories for an hour as a waste of her time. In listening to these stories she is hearing sentence structure at a level that she can understand AND reproduce! She is hearing the beautiful rhymes and alliteration ( that's the one where all the worlds in a sentence have the same repeated sounds- remember kids books are full of great examples of grammar). Plus most importantly those books were actually written FOR kids her age. Those books while easy for her and not challenging are AT her maturity level, so she can fully enjoy them. It is important to extend her with quality content at times, but not all the time. She needs to enjoy reading. That means listening and reading. Even the kids who can read well in grade 3 still get to listen to lots of stories, short and novels.
So although my advice isn't particularly helpful, I do suggest you worry less overall. She is a bright girl and a bit of wasted time here and there won't harm her education. I suppose you need to make sure the time you have is maximized. That's about all I can do with my lot. In the little time we have I squeeze in as much as I can. I also try to remember the importance of long stretches of uninterupted play and I completely leave them alone Saturday mornings from 5:30 ( early risers!) until 10:30.
Also any extra time your boy gets is getting him to a level where he can work independently also. Thinking long term, that's gotta be good right?
What was Doman thinking? A three year gap has got to be the hardest gap possible for education purposes!

[Tanikit]

Yeah mine are 3.5 years apart and I think I will have more issues as they get older. However what works for me right now is to insist that the older gives me time with the younger - so I teach the younger by showing her LR or doing flashcards or counting and the older knows that that time belongs to the little one and she may not interrupt (same with her story time) She can be there but she may not get in the way. The younger seems to start realising that the same is true when I am busy with the older although I do have to try to provide activities for her during these times. I also feel its unfair that my younger has to share my time so much more than my older ever had to at the same age, but that is life and that is how it works for all second and beyond children - its all she's ever known so she is used to it. At the same time she has a sister who loves and adores her and wants to teach her too which my eldest also didn't have and she has access to hearing so many things that I never even had around when my eldest was a baby simply because there wasn't a big sister around, so I think it balances out in the end though it takes more effort from me.

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