Don't Bother -- Little Vent

[tobias8]

It's great to see the comments.  I currently am using YBCR for my 3 y/o and now 11 month old.  My 3 y/o is sight reading without difficulty and I believe my 11 month old can read a small subset of words now as well.  Despite the naysayers, I am grateful for the programs.  It makes perfect sense that if you teach children at a younger age, they are able to assimilate what is taught without considerable effort.  The shining example comes from language.  Each child picks up language without "formal" training,in large part because it is introduced to children at an early age.  To extend the model to reading and encyclopedic knowledge is not a large leap.  I'm going to keep teaching despite the negativity, and ultimately it will be our children who will benefit.

[DadDude]

It's like anything new and unusual -- most people will dismiss early reading just because it's new and unusual to them.  But some people will listen and be intrigued.  So I think it's still worthwhile to spread the word, if you have time to do that.

But I'm not really one to speak.  I'm "DadDude" here because I don't want to use my real name.  ;-)  I haven't told many people our boy can read.  It's not the sort of thing I share with most people.  I've thought about doing so, but it seems like I would be starting a new hobby, "defend intensive early education."  Someday I might do that.  Right now I'm too busy!

I don't share the "I'm worried my child will be ahead of the other kids" attitude, though.  But maybe that's because we're planning to home school...

octaviaorca, as to your snooty overeducated sister, I have multiple degrees too, and so do a number of people who are into this stuff.  It doesn't matter how educated or smart she is: she does not know whereof she speaks.  Most people, even the alleged experts who criticize very early reading, don't actually have a lot of experience with it, and from the experts there are virtually no studies, just a lot of opinionizing.  You have to realize that people in the field of education are virtually indoctrinated against substantial knowledge, which they dismiss as the learning of "mere facts."  Most of them also believe, religiously, in a notion of "readiness" that has the same kids learning the same things at pretty much the same ages.  This is convenient for "industrial" schooling, but has little firm basis in carefully-done experimental science.  In short, academics and teachers are merely reflecting their own biases, not looking at the evidence about whether very early education actually *works*.

Has anyone ever come across people who taught their children early and later *regretted* doing it?

Kappasweet says, "For one, they go on and on about how reading sight words isn't really reading..."  Well, do you tell them that most kids who start with sight words, but figure out the phonetic code and are perfectly able to figure out unfamiliar words later?  You should!  "...I refrained from pointing this out, I want to convince people using positive statements, not deconstruct others arguments."  Oh, not at all my strategy, but everybody's different.  When given a chance, I prefer to shut up the naysayers by deconstructing their arguments.  It's called using reason.  It's how civilization got to where it is today.  We don't do enough of critical interchange of ideas anymore, to my mind.  Since when did it become rude to argue logically?

[tobias8]

I completely agree.  My only regret is that I didn't start even earlier with my kids.  There really is so much for them to be exposed.  I actually feel I'm cheating my kids by not educating MYSELF more about early education.  It's a world of unlimited potential that I feel is important to take advantage.  I actually had one mother tell me that this early education quells a child's right brain activity.  I thought, if only she knew of the many techniques to stimulate both left- and right-brain development.  I also agree that home schooling is probably the answer to the question of how to continue a childs early education into "the school age years".  Not enough of today's curriculum addresses children who have an early foundation of reading and learning.  Despite the many years of positive experience from earlier generations, it will still fall to us parents (and rightly so!) to build on the early learning of our children

[Nikita]

i think people are not willing to do because it can be time consuming...it is hard work to educate some one, and a lot of people choose not to that is why you see so many young kids with bad behavior , unfortunately even though we hate to hear that its the parents fault, I am afraid to say it is, the kids are like a sponge they reflect their parents.

I notice you have one child, 8 days old. Just you wait. Perhaps you need to do as I have done, and have a number of kids, of different ages and sexes, and send some to school, and homeschool some. And then get back to me if you still hold that opinion.
I have come to my own conclusions, and as I have 5, the oldest nearly 14, I actually KNOW what I'm talking about from personal experience. What you get is a lottery, a lucky dip. You can do your best, and it can produce some outstanding kids, and yet in that bunch you can get a real handful who seems unrelated. Just like you get physically and mentally handicapped kids, you can get obedience-challenged kids. I got one. If he was my first and I had waited many years, I would NOT have gone back for a second.  I want a big family, but I really DO NOT want another boy. There's just something gone wrong in brain chemistry  5 years ago. He was a saint before that...he could do no wrong and I was the envy of all my friends. Now he embarrasses me constantly, to the point of having people send over child welfare because he gives off the impression he isnt kept clean, decent clothes, lunch packed for school...and he does this deliberately to upset me. If I didnt have other children to compare him against, people might think I was a bad parent. Some things are sent to try us in life, and there's my trial.

Let's just say I have empathy for some parents of pyschopaths.  Jeffrey Dahmer came from a normal, loving family, but he was born a bad egg. His brother is a normal family man...no matter what you do for some people, they will just be bad. I'm hoping my son snaps out of it. I wish we had military school around my area. I feel very resentful towards him nowadays. I feel he doesnt deserve his family. And his sisters resent him also as he gets away with not doing chores when they are obedient and helpful.
 I could go on and on...

[Nikita]

I have discussed the doman method and this site with people, even managing to get a few friends to join...but that is as far as it goes. I'm the only person I know who actually uses the doman method and other early learning strategies. So now I rarely bother to discuss it with anyone. I do feel like people just dont care enough to bother with their kids...it's too time-consuming.
There's a bible saying...a wise proverb... "dont throw your pearls before swine".
Which means, dont cheapen a great quality thing by sharing it with someone who'll just trample it underfoot, or treat it like it's worthless.

[Nikolett]

Interesting thread
I have a new acquaintance who speaks English/Russian/Mandarin besides her native language and has lived abroad most of her childhood. She makes her living teaching those languages to adults (now part time) BUT she would not consider teaching her only daughter (almost 3y.o. who she is home with) not to confuse her!!?? Then she makes comments at how developed my kids are   I am trying to imply why...

[DadDude]

Most people are conformists and won't use something until it's endorsed by experts or by the herd.  To condemn the whole human race for their conformism is kind of mean-spirited if you ask me.  If you have to lay the blame for lack of uptake of these ideas anywhere, it goes to two places:

(1) The IAHP for never sponsoring or performing rigorous scientific studies of the efficacy of these methods.  At least Titzer, as a Ph.D. scientist, knows the importance of such studies, and he tells me he's pursuing such studies.  Without such studies, the larger scientific community just won't pay any attention to this stuff.  Those of you who are truly devoted to this and are, say, in school or thinking of going back to school, in education--you could pursue this as a thesis, and do a world of good.

(2) In the U.S. at least, I would blame the education establishment and the intellectual elites generally, which are philosophically opposed to several underpinnings of these methods...to wit:

(a) Educationists will scream bloody murder if you call them on this, but when you examine their methods, standards, textbook selection, etc., you can see that their approach (in the U.S.) embodies an anti-knowledge stance.  Their theorists dismiss the learning of substantial knowledge as "rote memorization" of "mere facts," imply that traditional academic knowledge is of interest for only those who have a certain "learning style," and accuse those who want children to master a core curriculum of Western ethnocentrism or even "racism."  This is why Doman and YBCR has a much greater uptake in countries, like those of Eastern Europe and Asia (including so many of the lovely mommies on this forum), with a much stronger and more sincere love of learning.

(b) Americans have deeply "romantic" (in the philosophical sense) notions about education.  This is reflected when you find people saying that we should "let kids be kids," that "play is children's work," that academic work and homework kills kids' spirits, and so forth.  The historical source of this deeply problematic attitude is Rousseau (read his *Emile*--intellectual mothers should find it fascinating), the original advocate of unschooling.  So, anything that would have kids learn anything that they do not find in their environment (especially that they cannot learn in a "hands on" way) is regarded as "artificial" and a probably insidious influence.

(c) Americans, again, are some of the most deeply committed egalitarians in the history of the world.  Many of us (well, especially people on the Left--but in some respects, those on the Right, too) are offended when we observe deep inequalities in conditions between people.  For these egalitarians, any movement that would make people less equal is totally wrong-headed.  I find people using what look to me like lame scientific arguments as cover-ups for their own personal abhorrence of "disgusting ambition" on the part of pathetic parents.  To them, we are merely using our children to pursue our lost ambitions at second-hand, or or make up for our personal shortcomings.

In short, at least in the U.S., we are a counter-culture, like it or not!  If you always wanted to be in the mainstream, you are in the wrong place!

[Kappasweet]

Kappasweet says, "For one, they go on and on about how reading sight words isn't really reading..."  Well, do you tell them that most kids who start with sight words, but figure out the phonetic code and are perfectly able to figure out unfamiliar words later?  You should!  "...I refrained from pointing this out, I want to convince people using positive statements, not deconstruct others arguments."  Oh, not at all my strategy, but everybody's different.  When given a chance, I prefer to shut up the naysayers by deconstructing their arguments.  It's called using reason.  It's how civilization got to where it is today.  We don't do enough of critical interchange of ideas anymore, to my mind.  Since when did it become rude to argue logically?

I have spent time instead deconstructing arguments on my blog instead of trying to convert the particular individuals on this Mommy forum.  Disclaimer: I have affiliated with the product, but as everyone here knows it is a good decent product.  I have also affiliated with Little Reader/Little Math but it is a harder sell because there is no infomercial (yet).

The most ridiculous comments to date:
1) I would never use a hothousing product like Your Baby Can Read.  I just use starfall and leapfrog videos! (Who are you kidding ma'am?)
2) I showed my child one showing of Your Baby Can Read videos, and she forgot how to sound out words.  This video un-did all my hard work, now I have to "start over." (This was a claim from a mother of a 2 year old. Not that two year olds can't read, as shown on this forum, I just did not believe that this child could ever sound out words.  She probably knew words by sight, and mimicked her mother when she showed her how to sound them out.  This mother thought it was appropriate to teach babies phonics, but not sight words.)
3) The same person that went on about how parents should not spend money on such products, suggested $60 Scholastic "big books" in response to my insistence that not all children see well enough to read ordinary books before the age of 5 or 6.
4) These parents that teach their children early mask my child's true "natural" genius   People are so impressed that these other kids can read, but my child painstakingly worked out the phonetic code on her own while we were frolicking in the meadow with no readers, educational materials, or parental help. (sarcastic rendition)

I could go on and on.  There are some characters out there, I'm glad I do not know these folks IRL.

You also find a highly suspicious number of early readers (like ridiculously early) on the internet who spontaneously taught themselves with no help. There is a "one up" culture who believes in exclusive child-led learning who makes borderline ridiculous claims about how their children taught themselves to read and other academic skills without help.  I get it, these mothers have to present themselves as non-pushy and want their kids to be viewed as "natural" genius in the meantime they are pretending away the flashcards and videos and other efforts they have put in.

I seem to find the lowest concentration of delusional people on this forum.  Not that there is not the occasional posts that makes you go   , but at least most people on this forum are not subscribed to some sort of ideology that does not allow them to see the possibilities.

[Kappasweet]

DadDude,
I'm in agreement with your entire post!  Just to address point 2(a), my husband and I were looking through some more "elite" private school curriculums and I was really really disappointed at how "soft" they made it sound.  It may have been marketing to parents who want to believe the school is fun, I don't know.  I want a program that calls for mastery of a core curriculum, just as you describe we have totally gotten away from that.  I want to KNOW, that once my child completes grade 3, he will be able to complete 100 single digit multiplication problems in 5 minutes or less at 100%.  And the 100% part is very important to me.  I think many would consider me wrong for that, maybe pushy, maybe old fashioned, I don't know.  My parents didn't have to worry about such things, they sent us to school and they did not waste our time doing ridiculous but exciting "projects" where only 1 or 2 concepts are introduced, but none are mastered.  "Integrated units" is what I think they called them.  Well, I want my units to be segregated. 

[LDSMom]

I say early learning is worth it. I'd never change a thing except starting earlier if i'd known about it. Thank goodness for YBCR and their infomercial!

My son just turned 2.  He isn't reading 500 words, last I checked he could read 10 words 6 months ago but I haven't tested or tried to see where he's at since. We've gone through stages of bringing out words and then putting them away for a few weeks because he doesn't want to read them, etc.  He can talk fairly well but still babbles a lot.  3 months ago I had him start going to a spanish immersion play group. 2 hrs a day, 5 days a week. This also helps me to get some work done at home since I am full time mommy and have a full time job at home. I wanted to take him to the next level in learning spanish, since he's been listening to spanish music for a year and watching little pim, etc.  He is now starting to say some words in Spanish, and I often wonder if his "babbling" is actually him mimicking or trying to use words from the other language.

Most people have been supportive of what I'm doing, but occasionally I get the snide remark of "well, how's his English coming along?" in response to me telling them he's learning to speak in spanish..or my cute 3 yr old neice who didn't know I was teaching him spanish, started giggling at his gibberish when he was little and said "look mommy! he's speaking spanish!" I had to laugh because, I really was teaching him Spanish even though that's not what he was doing .  My other neice not to long ago asked how can you teach a child spanish, I asked her how does a baby learn English? she thought about it for a few minutes and said, well they learn it by having us talk to them.  And I said, exactly! Thats how he is learning Spanish, by having someone talk to him in it. She thought that was really neat, although she did say it sounded like a lot of work. . I explained to her that these little ones are smarter than we think and they love to learn. Which is so true!

Anyway, My baby isn't reading full books, and he can't talk in full sentences in 2 languages yet, or even 1 language, but to me he is the most brilliant kid in the world and I couldn't be more proud of him.  My baby was over at his aunts house the other day and she had a visitor over who was an educator for special needs kids, she made the comment that she could just watch my child play for hours because he was so fascinating and intriguing. She'd never heard of early learning or that kids could learn words/alphabets this early.  Of course her comments made my day and I was so excited that someone else could see it in him!

I think everyone I know knows that I'm teaching my kid early.  That said, only a few have asked to borrow my DVD's and materials (and trust me I offer them to EVERYONE). But hopefully it will catch on soon. I think it's wonderful and exciting! Good luck to you all! 

Heidi

[Kappasweet]

i think people are not willing to do because it can be time consuming...it is hard work to educate some one, and a lot of people choose not to that is why you see so many young kids with bad behavior , unfortunately even though we hate to hear that its the parents fault, I am afraid to say it is, the kids are like a sponge they reflect their parents.

I notice you have one child, 8 days old. Just you wait. Perhaps you need to do as I have done, and have a number of kids, of different ages and sexes, and send some to school, and homeschool some. And then get back to me if you still hold that opinion.
I have come to my own conclusions, and as I have 5, the oldest nearly 14, I actually KNOW what I'm talking about from personal experience. What you get is a lottery, a lucky dip. You can do your best, and it can produce some outstanding kids, and yet in that bunch you can get a real handful who seems unrelated. Just like you get physically and mentally handicapped kids, you can get obedience-challenged kids. I got one. If he was my first and I had waited many years, I would NOT have gone back for a second.  I want a big family, but I really DO NOT want another boy. There's just something gone wrong in brain chemistry  5 years ago. He was a saint before that...he could do no wrong and I was the envy of all my friends. Now he embarrasses me constantly, to the point of having people send over child welfare because he gives off the impression he isnt kept clean, decent clothes, lunch packed for school...and he does this deliberately to upset me. If I didnt have other children to compare him against, people might think I was a bad parent. Some things are sent to try us in life, and there's my trial.

Let's just say I have empathy for some parents of pyschopaths.  Jeffrey Dahmer came from a normal, loving family, but he was born a bad egg. His brother is a normal family man...no matter what you do for some people, they will just be bad. I'm hoping my son snaps out of it. I wish we had military school around my area. I feel very resentful towards him nowadays. I feel he doesnt deserve his family. And his sisters resent him also as he gets away with not doing chores when they are obedient and helpful.
 I could go on and on...

Yeah, my aunt has 4 children, the first 2 and last are as sweet as can be, and the 3rd is just inexplicable.  She does things which you would not expect from a child, like seek revenge for an insult DAYS later.  If you told her she could not have a lollipop when she asked, she would remember, and be sure to pour an entire bag of sugar into your pillow case for you to find later on.  Being with her in the house for several days is kind of scary actually, you think she is going to do something to you in your sleep.  I am not saying she is a psychopath, but I don't hold her Mom responsible for her behavior, primarily because the other 3 are absolutely fine children.  If she only had the one child though, everyone would think it was her mother's fault, I really try not to judge.

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