John Taylor Gatto - review & discussion of his ideas

[PokerDad]

Thanks for posting the video (s)

regarding the ted talk video, she discussed the changes that occur during the teen years and made an argument that under such an environment, learning can and should continue. I don't disagree at all. She also made the claim that some people say adolescence is a newly invented thing and showed a quote from Shakespeare to illustrate her point that it isn't. Knowing what I already knew (much of which is covered in the video), I was never willing to say adolescence is a pure fiction and that the teen brain equals an adult brain. I know better than that.

What did stand out was her emphasis that synaptic pruning is largely dependent upon the environment the teen is in while this pruning is taking place. In other words, it's a neurological adaption to optimize in the current environment. My question is if the hypothetical environment of teens (in the aggregate) is reflective of the environment they will live in during their 20s, 30s, 40s, etc? Yes and no. There are similarities and differences even if you take school out of the equation (think technology and cultural shifts over the course of decades) - so the optimizing will be adapting to a slightly different environment than the future regardless of what we do.

The question I would then have is if school (since that's the subject at hand) is significantly worse in terms of neural adaptation than the real world in terms of application. I don't know, and I'm not qualified to make that sort of judgement. However, it does stand to reason that teens in general ought to be extremely engaged in what they're doing to make best use of the adaptation process.

For comedian Steve Martin, this meant working full days and assimilating elements of entertainment while working at Disneyland. For inner city troubled youths, it might mean eschewing the classroom and digging deeper into the culture around them.

Therefore, some environments will be better suited than others and will produce different results.

My question is where does school, itself, fit into this? Gatto despises public school for so many reasons, namely that it stunts growth. What do you all think?

In the "compiled thoughts" video that Nee1 posted, Gatto discusses the skills taught at elite boarding schools. They seem like great non-academic skills that we should perhaps incorporate for our children, but that's my opinion... what is yours?

[Korrale4kq]

Some rambles....

I think Australian youths are better equipped for the real world than American youths.... Well... This is taken from my experience over a decade ago. Things may differ now.

Part of my education in Australia  applied real world learning. We learned cooking, and mending and building things. I took classes which taught about rental contracts, employees rights, balancing checkbooks. I have been told that those things just aren't taught in US high schools. We have a variety of subjects that have real world applications. Legal studies, business studies, info and tech and civics are just a few of them.

We also do work experience weeks where we go into the workforce to experience what it is like.

I think college in the US can be an isolated culture too. Especially for those that live in dorms. We don't have those kind of colleges in Australia (as far as I know...) We have universities that are more akin to community college. You go to classes you go home. You may or may not work. You may or may not live at home. But you don't live it the college and mingle with mostly kids your own age.

Which takes me back to schools in America. There are so many organizations and clubs in American high schools that students with certains interests don't need to lead their little adolescent niche to follow what they love.
In Australia if you love drama you join a local community drama programs and mingle with people of all ages. Same with many other sports in my small community. My high school didn't offer sports so if we wanted to play cricket we had to join a club in town with a variety of people. Likewise with life saving or little athletics.

[cokers4life]

I am curious what does an ideal childhood look like under these philosophies?  What does the transition to adulthood look like?  How are you taking Gatto's lectures and making them practical and applicable to your life?  What does the ideal day look like for the varying stages of raising an adult?

[PokerDad]

That's something I'm still working to figure out. Luckily, I have a lot of time before I really have to worry about it, but it's always nice to have a good idea of where I'm going beforehand.

The key elements are not mutually exclusive. According to Gatto, one of the main problems is that we expect too little; he loves to point out great accomplishments that children and teens have achieved outside of school. Another problem is that kids aren't interacting with the community at large because they're stuck in an artificial world. In my view, time would be spent in mentor relationships, apprenticeships, and in the real world environment while continuing the studies. With the standard approach, school takes up 7 hours a day considering travel, etc + any homework which leaves very little time to pursue one's passions.

In my case, I did the 7 hours per day thing at school, and then went to swim practice. That was another 3.5 hours once you factor in travel time. By then I was too exhausted to do much but eat and space out in front of the boob tube (something I wish didn't happen to the extent that it did). Part of Gatto's argument is that between school and TV, there's little time for real world interaction, and over the course of years, this is crippling.

In a homeschool environment, studies could be completed before noon which would leave a whole lot of time for interesting things. I think that's more of what Gatto would envision.

[Korrale4kq]

I don't think it has to be a dramatically altered childhood. Children should have responsibilities. I think chores is a good way to start. I am constantly shocked at the overwhelming number if school aged kids including teens that have no to few chores.
I grew up on a farm and I had to do chores for as long as I remember. I was doing dishes by standing on a chair and I was collecting eggs from the chooks by myself from about the age of 4. I had to feed and water them also.
I had to feed the pigs and As got older I was involved with herding animals and slaughtering chickens.

My mum was mustering independently on horse back on a dairy farm from about the age of 4. Her mom was sick ans her  older sister was away at school at lot so my mum was the one running the house from a young age.  Her childhood was no more stymied than mine.

[TeachingMyToddlers]

For those without time to watch the clip:

John Taylor Gatto -- 14 Principles of Elite Private Schools:

1.) No kid should graduate without a theory of human nature attained through the study of History, philosophy, theology, literature, and law.

2.) Every graduate has a strong experience with the active literacies: writing and public speaking.

3.) Insight into the major institutional forms: courts, corporations, military, etc.

4.) Repeated exercises in the forms of good manners and politeness, based on the fact that these things are the basis of future relationships.

5.) Independent work. (Contrast with public school where the teacher is tasked with filling 90% of the class time.)

6.) Energetic physical sports are not a luxury, but are rather the only way to confer grace on the human presence.

7.) A complete theory of access to any workplace or any person. (Imagine an assignment for a student to get a personal meeting with the governor.)

8.) Responsibiity as an utterly essential part of the curriculum. Always grab for responsibility when it is offered, and always deliver more than what is expected.

9.) Arrive at a personal code of standards. Standards of production, behavior, and morality.

10.) Familiarity with the master creations of the arts so that you are at ease within all the arts.

11.) Realize the power of accurate observation and recording. (Drawing is Gatto's example.)

12.) The ability to handle challenges of all sorts. Challenges are different for different people.

13.) A habit of caution in reasoning to conclusions.

14.) The constant development and testing of judgements. You make judgements, but you keep an eye on results to see how you're doing.

[TeachingMyToddlers]

(Continued)

This was taken from a post over at babycenter:

http://community.babycenter.com/post/a29309247/14_principles_of_elite_private_schools

Now let's take a look at what parents at the finest private schools want from schooling. I've been studying their expectations for nearly 20 years in order to compare them with my own goals. I'm talking about the 20 ritziest private boarding schools in America – schools like Groton, St. Pauls, Deerfield, Kent.

I'm going to ask you to note that none of the principles these parents seek cost a penny to develop. Everybody could do one or all these things with their kids just as well as Exeter or St.Paul's could. What these elite private school parents want schools to teach their children, in no particular order of importance, are:

• good manners and to display those manners to everyone without thinking, because they know in this way their children will be welcome everywhere.

• hard intellectual knowledge, undiluted, but in simple English so no specialized jargon interferes with understanding the fundamental ideas.

• love and appreciation for the land and the natural world of plants and animals, because without this understanding, life becomes lonely, barren, and abstract.

• a public sense of decorum so that they can adapt naturally to every setting they find themselves in without provoking anger and opposition.

• a common core of western culture so that all the generations can be comfortable with a shared set of tastes and values.

• leadership; they aren't interested in their children being part of a managed herd.

• self-discipline.

A major concern of private school parents is that the schools understand the partially invisible qualification system that provides access to key positions in the economy. These parents expect schools to qualify their children to move freely through the economic system. But don't we all want this?

Private school parents also demand individualized attention for their children, small classes, continuous pressure on their children to stretch individual limits, exposure to many different theoretical and practical aspects of life, exercises to develop self-reliance and self-confidence.

To be educated is to understand yourself and others, to know your culture and that of others, your history and that of others, your religious outlook and that of others. If you miss out on this, you are always at the mercy of someone else to interpret what the facts of any situation mean.
 
 
We are not in the financial position to put our kids in private school, but I can definitely incorporate some of these principles at home so that my kids can have that much more knowledge and insight.
A friend of mine put me on to the International Baccalaureate program. If you have one in your area (we don't ), definitely check it out.
www.ibo.org/

--------------------------------

A lot of those desires seem to compare to the list forum members came up with here as far as what we want for our kids. For my kids, I am aiming for boarding school over skipping high school, however I would prefer they go together because it would make me feel much more comfortable. They're only a year apart, so it's not outside the realm of possibility. The OP notes that these things can be taught for free, however it is difficult to teach your child networking in the capacity one of these schools would.

[PokerDad]

excellent posts TmT! I'm going to have to save it for future reference. Actually, I should perhaps print it out and post it to my wall

As to boarding school, there are pros and cons to any option you choose; it's a really a matter of preferences and priorities. I also don't think 1 year apart is going to matter a whole lot in the grand scheme of things.

document.getElementById('recent_loading').style.display = 'none';document.getElementById('recent_page_box').style.display = '';

Page: 1/4  

Loading...

Members

• Total Members: 214772
• Latest: addisonjones

Stats

• Total Posts: 110526
• Total Topics: 19136
• Online Today: 452
• Online Ever: 826
• (January 22, 2020, 12:09:49 AM)

Users Online

• Users: 0
• Guests: 384
• Total: 384