Can genius be learned or is it preordained?

[nee1]

All I'm saying is that the mental facility we associate with high IQ is mostly genetic. I haven't yet seen any data that indicates that IQ can be increased by any special type of educational methods.

DadDude,

1) I disagree. IQ is changeable, very changeable. Check out Michael Howe's book 'IQ in Question', where he resolves some of those questions. For example, during HeadStart programs, the kids' IQ increased. Other early intervention programs have also showed improvements in IQ. But note, the programs were not originally made out to increase IQ, so IQ increments were mostly a by-product. But it once again proves that IQ is not static. It improves with exposure, schooling, and environment. And again, Michael Howe discusses this in-depth in that book.

2) People may say, some studies showed that some of the  IQ changes did fade, yes, some faded, because the duration of the programs were too short, some were about 2-5 hours a week for some months, amounting to about 60 hours in all, nowhere close to the 10000 hours required for expertise in a subject. Besides, the kids did not get to use the newly acquired knowledge at home. Remember,  these kids were already from disadvantaged homes with low educational exposure. So, as with any skill, you use it or you lose it.  And then, the schools some of those kids attended afterwards were not even up to par. So whatever they learnt during the HeadStart intervention programs, faded away. That was what then motivated researchers Hart and Risley to go in search of answers. What they found, they published in their seminal book ‘Meaningful differences in the lives of American Children’. Below is a summary of the book as published in American Educator. The article is titled: ‘The Early Catastophe: The 30 million word gap by age 3’- http://www.aft.org/pdfs/americaneducator/spring2003/TheEarlyCatastrophe.pdf.

3) Howe also discusses the twin-IQ question, and several more. See his book ‘IQ in question’.

4) I've done some amount of reading on this subject, not just Howe's books, but people on the nature side, Joan Freeman for example. And even the data she presented in her earlier books showed that the greater the parental involvement and educational exposure in a child's life, the greater the IQ. So how can that be genetic?

5) Ok, we are not doing early education to improve IQ, but I know IQ increments will be one of the by-products of early education. After all, what are the contents of most IQ questions?  Learnt knowledge.

[nee1]

Here I read that IQ often does not correlate with outstanding performance and with "talent", so all of you are right

Yes, Frukc, you are right. High IQ does not correlate with later outstanding performance in life. For example Joan Freeman’s recent book showed that some of those ‘gifted’ children rarely went on to fulfil their potential. So I do wonder whether it was the label ‘gifted’ that actually hindered them. Afterall, as a ‘gifted’ and ‘smart’ child, you don’t have to work hard, you were born with high intelligence, so don’t work too hard. They may even be ashamed to be seen studying, after all smart kids don’t study, they are innately bright. No wonder they did not end up so well.

For example, in a previous book, she mentioned that the kids labelled 'gifted' by parents had more emotional and social problems compared to another group of kids with comparable ability that were not labelled.

My argument here is that devoting the required hours of practice to anything in life will produce more success than depending on IQ scores to guarantee life success.  And encouraging a child to value effort over innate intelligence as Carol Dweck proposes in her book ‘Mindset’ will guarantee that child’s success.

[Mandabplus3]

My argument here is that devoting the required hours of practice to anything in life will produce more success than depending on IQ scores to guarantee life success.  And encouraging a child to value effort over innate intelligence as Carol Dweck proposes in her book ‘Mindset’ will guarantee that child’s success.
I think that pretty much sums it up
I have heard and seen evidence in myself that IQ can change with practice of the IQ type questions, I mean probably not groundbreaking stuff but it does make you wonder it you spent 10000 hours on IQ test questions would you ace the test? And would you actually be smarter? 

Izzp you have got my concerns exactly! This is precicely the problem I have. Should I push/allow/encourage a child to pursue their 10000 hours knowing the costs will be high. It's a massive dessision to make on behalf of your child. My children are not science experiments...
You asked if the gym was next door what my answer would be well it would be completelly different. I would sign her up in a heart beat! She loves gym and would happily spend an hour or 3 every day in practice. My issue is probably that the extra travel time adds up to another 10000 hours wasted over the years! Hmmm maybe we could clock up 10000 hours in something else while in the car!  AND that my other 2 kids would be dragged along for the ride quite often, not to even consider me! Or maybe it would be easier to commit all three kids to a life of gymnastics  And build a gym in out shed.... Moving isn't an option anytime soon.
Since she thrives on competition and quality practice that continually pushed her skills I have no questions about her personal ability to succeed. It's more about whether I should. My current decision is sign her up for the rest of the year, commit for that time and actively  re assess each year. So far she is easily coping with 5 and a half hours ( with 2 hours driving time for me) so a few more hours should work, she may have to drop one of her other activities, or do them on a more casual basis. I need to find a car pool! Lol

[Frukc]

My opinion. We all see that toddlers have different interests. Some want to play with cars only, others like dolls, etc.

My kids do not play with dolls or cars; daughter wants games with talking and son wants mechanisms. Probably, they by themselves are developing particular skills which later will show up as "talent".

If I will press my daughter to study devices for 1000 hours she probably will hate me. However that would be very good for my son. And in opposite.

This aspect is not covered in talent research. I think, talent = deep interest + practice. Let's look for the interest at first.

[Kimba15]

My opinion. We all see that toddlers have different interests. Some want to play with cars only, others like dolls, etc.

My kids do not play with dolls or cars; daughter wants games with talking and son wants mechanisms. Probably, they by themselves are developing particular skills which later will show up as "talent".

If I will press my daughter to study devices for 1000 hours she probably will hate me. However that would be very good for my son. And in opposite.

This aspect is not covered in talent research. I think, talent = deep interest + practice. Let's look for the interest at first.
[/

So true Frukc!!  I need to watch and observe my    dd more to see where her interests lie.

[Mandabplus3]

Interest is ever so important! And each of my kids have slightly different interests and strengths from stretching those interests. The  hard bit is determining which ones to pursue with vigor.
Oh and sometimes you get that one child who is hard to read..and hard to determine what the specific interests are.

[lzp11]

Interest is hugely important! But from what I read in Bounce it is not just following the child's interest although that is almost certainly the starting point.

The author (who was a top table tennis player) described a situation where almost all the top 5 British players all lived a few doors from one another in his street!  He thought this was due to the combination of a very good enthusiastic coach plus the mutual interest that the group developed through playing one another so were happy to practice almost non stop together. So an element of positive peer pressure (or maybe support) and encouragement.

So maybe looking for the spark of interest but then building ways to foster the enthusiasm and keep it going when things get tough.

Btw I totally agree about IQ not being directly related to ability although I can't quote any evidence.  I cannot imagine that the ability to carry out IQ tests is not a skill like any other that can be practiced and learned. I've crammed to pass too many exams to believe that! Of course some people will find this process easier than others - personally I am not so good at many of the visual elements of an IQ test. However I'm not sure it tests the ability to extrapolate information or apply it in different ways. My guess is that IQ will relate more to certain fields and skillsets than others. I doubt it has much to do with communication skills for example!

[Frukc]

After this discussion I decided to teach physics to my son (2 years). He is studying properties of materials all the time since his first months! I will teach mechanics, my husband (doctor in physics)  will teach electronics etc. Basics of physics can be explained with simple experiments so we are going to have fun 

Strength of my girl (4 years) will be logical thinking. Because we discuss reasons, differences and processes a lot.

[Mandabplus3]

Great idea Frukc. I  run with any interest shown and make a point to include my own specialties. ( can talking too much actually be useful? ) I haven't spent a lot of conscious time thinking about what they should know and teaching that. Recently I decided my geography knowledge was too limited ( I am by no means stupid  ) and I wanted my kids to experience the world in their lives so we are adding a bunch more geography to the week. They love the map on the toilet wall and tell me something new almost every day. They actually understand the term "overseas" now 
One thing to be aware of though. I recently took my kids to a woodworking workshop, thinking my oldest would enjoy it, my middle would survive it and my youngest would get me to do his. I couldn't have been more wrong! My youngest showed true talent with putting the kit together, hammering by himself and painting with colour matching skills. My middle really enjoyed every second and my oldest was overwhelmed and needed encouragement but loved it and asked to do it again. so my point is be careful that your ideas of their future do not blind you to offering opportunities well outside the selected scope. We have added another activity to our list to explore. Off to find a LR category on woodworking tools

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