We Can Do by Moshe Kai with guest Robert Levy discussing Saxon Math.

[Korrale4kq]

I love the way that you are learning Russian. Similar to how my son learnt phonics.

I only taught him lowercase letters and called them by sounds. He actually doesn't say letters. He calls them phonics. He has plenty of time to be corrected. I never taught him the names. And only later did I teach him upper case. My son can not recite the alphabet song, and I am completely okay with that. He does know most, if not all the letter names now I think. Honestly I am not sure how he knows them all. I assume from apps.  We don't do TV, so no Elmo assist. Now I think about it he may have learnt them from a little toy laptop that he has. With the exception of a drum and Piano it is the only electric toy he has.

I figure we use lowercase letters the most when reading it was the most logical place to start. I really did intend for him to learn to read phonetically at first. ... Just didn't work out that way.

I like that you used a real book to teach David to read. Centuries ago before primers, children learnt to read with the bible.

[Robert Levy]

"I only taught him lowercase letters and called them by sounds. He actually doesn't say letters. He calls them phonics. He has plenty of time to be corrected. I never taught him the names. And only later did I teach him upper case. My son can not recite the alphabet song, and I am completely okay with that. He does know most, if not all the letter names now I think. Honestly I am not sure how he knows them all. I assume from apps.  We don't do TV, so no Elmo assist. smile Now I think about it he may have learnt them from a little toy laptop that he has. With the exception of a drum and Piano it is the only electric toy he has."

Wow, you're better at it than I was.  We still had David learn letters, but I agree, they're not needed and can be confusing - you might as well just learn the sounds.  You can always pick up the letter names later.


"I like that you used a real book to teach David to read. Centuries ago before primers, children learnt to read with the bible."

Thanks, like I said, it wasn't brilliance on my part, I just didn't have anything else around, so I grabbed the first book that looked potentially doable for him.  The bible would work to...just much slower (and small print) - I could see spending a month to get through the first page, using my technique (of learning the words before attempting to read).  Things would, of course, speed up over time.

[Korrale4kq]

Lol, teaching sounds initially only makes sense to me. But I didn't always do it that way, I had a few years under my belt. You were in a time crunch and figured out something that obviously worked.

[MummyRoo]

Robert,
Russian letters do have names (though the vowel names are equivalent to their sounds) though I was never taught them and only picked them up much later because I felt silly spelling out words using phonics.

Koralle,
I do like the Usborne books particularly. I believe they can be found on the bookdepository site with free shipping to most countries, so its not just those of us in the UK that can benefit! Their phonics readers are good fun for very first books (mostly cvc words) and their farmyard tales are excellent for confident early readers with very clear print.


We have most of what I would consider 'good' phonics readers. We have several sets, but they are generally those considered 'advanced' readers - the ones with lots of words and an actual story - that I hope will make the transition to chapter books easier. I can't imagine more than a couple of 'cat on mat' type stories will be tolerated. Once the excitement of actually reading a book himself wears off we'll be straight on to the proper books.

I have one set using the same books the schools use - the stories are ok, but somewhat tedious to begin with, but where I have two books at each level where the school has a box (I would guess 10+ per box, but I can't find official numbers). I know my mum raves about my brothers (Aussie) Reception teacher because she was willing to go against the 'rules' and let the kids skip whole boxes. This in itself is telling that there were lots of boxes of readers to get through!

[Mandabplus3]

Off topic a bit ( but so is the entire thread! ) but i ran the reading program at my kids school, they are fairly typical of a smaller school here ( Australia) they run with a set of PM readers. They are not phonics based readers but sight word readers that gradually increase in difficulty. The phonics difficulty increases over the levels also.  They have between 6 and 16 books for each level and there are 30 levels. They also have a backup set of 8 books per level, all 30 levels for kids who need more practice. Level 30 is supposed to be for 12 year olds but most kids finish the set completely by grade 4 ( age 9/10) at the latest. Mine finished them at the end of grade 1 ( second child about to finish them) Kids are expected to read every available book on each level then progress automatically. They are tested 4 times a year to move them up ( or potentially down) levels to ensure they are constantly getting just above easy books. it works out to be three books and a worksheet for each book a week.
The phonics programs are usually run separately, in class time. It is systematic phonics and usually linked to spelling lists also. He books are for the parents to teach the phonics is for the teachers to teach. that way even the kids with lazy parents who never do a reader will still learn to read just a little slower.

[arvi]

Robert, Thank you for sharing your thoughts and experiences. You're very pragmatic Just one more question. Most of the child prodigies and accelerated learners that I've read about have ended up depressed and being unhappy during adulthood. There are a few exceptions to this list like your son (great indeed). One common thing about the prodigies/accelerated learners who turned out depressed is the fact that they were accelerated in a super fast pace like graduating college at the age of 12 or less. What is your opinion on this? Did you put special efforts to ensure that your son is happy and did you make conscious effort in making him well-rounded or is it because of his personality that he is happy now.

[Korrale4kq]

Manda,
That is how it was when I was in primary school. We did the phonics work in class. Even though i could read, I still remember ants on and apple a...a...a...  Lions licking lollipops l...l...l... And many more.
Then I remember a whole slew of readers that we took home.  I remember having to read them, but I took home up to 5 at a time. A distinctly remember one saying "this is an apple." "This is an orange" And more pages with other fruits. These had  large font and a picture of an apple, orange or whatever fruit to give context clues. I loved those books and I think they help with fluency and comprehension. And above all confidence. These are called high frequency readers and outside of a school setting they are hard to find. And when they are found they are ridiculously expensive. These are the books that parents see and I think the assume that kids are only learning to read via whole words. But in fact nearly every school district I know has a phonics program that is given by pure instruction.

[Robert Levy]

To Mandabplus3 ,

"Off topic a bit ( but so is the entire thread!)"

Teaches you guys to invite me to someone else's threat.  But I like it better this way, it gives my kid some cover.

No comment on the rest, as it's out of my league - other than to mention again that we just had a marker board and then standard children's books.

[Robert Levy]

To Arvi,

"Just one more question. Most of the child prodigies and accelerated learners that I've read about have ended up depressed and being unhappy during adulthood. There are a few exceptions to this list like your son (great indeed). One common thing about the prodigies/accelerated learners who turned out depressed is the fact that they were accelerated in a super fast pace like graduating college at the age of 12 or less. What is your opinion on this? Did you put special efforts to ensure that your son is happy and did you make conscious effort in making him well-rounded or is it because of his personality that he is happy now."

Good questions Arvi.  I guess a few things here.  First, David had his church group of same-age (or at least very close-aged) kids that he grew up with literally from day 1, so that was probably the most important factor.  Had we moved (for any reason) or sent him away, I suspect he would have turned out completely different (and for the worse).  It's critical for a kid in that situation to have a group like that and stay with them.  Remember, David also doesn't have siblings - and even 'normal' single kids tend to have a lot more problems socially - so he had both going against him.  Next, like I've said, I beat it into him (figuratively, but pretty loud when necessary, which was very rare) that he was nothing special, he was just a kid whose parents started him early.  Without that, he probably will have still been in the top half of his class, but not by much (and I'm not even sure of that).  He knows it himself - he understands that intrinsically.  A number of times after he'd spent hours living it up with his friends I'd ask him whether they talked about him going to college - it never comes up, he's not about to talk about it, and to the other kids, he just went to another school - so they would never feel inferior around him.

Beyond that, we never, ever, shopped him to the media or had a blog, or anything.  But keep in mind that the Internet was younger, although still very big - I just had no interest.  I realize that others here have pages, and I completely understand that.  You have relatives, probably out of town (especially grandparents), that just love to read and watch the postings - and that's fine, because I also know that you guys will know be able to figure out when to back off, such as when it could make the kid susceptible to teasing.  Since I haven't done it, I don't feel qualified to say if it's harmful or not.  But back to the media.  My conservative political views don't give me much love of the media to begin with, and I've heard story after story of how they mess up and ruin people.  So it was easy for me to avoid them.  But, in the end, we had Pam at the Community College, that really stuck her neck out to get him enrolled early - and when she wanted to put out a press release when he finished there, so that she could maybe draw more kids in like David, we were fine with it.  And then you had University of Houston that had an 86 year old graduating the same day as David (who was 16 years old), and they wanted to do a story on it, and then TV stations got wind.  We were good there too, as the school also did a great job and we didn't want to let the older guy down.  But all this was done just as he was finishing up both schools.  So while he was in school, there were no distractions, like TV stories, that would have made him an outcast (or gotten to his head).  I know lots of parents do shop their kids - I think some parents just have their own problems and are trying to solve them through their kids, but I suspect many other parents just want the kid's name out there, so the colleges come knocking with offers.  We don't know - because we never gave them that chance (to speak of).  And by the way, the media stories were fine...they weren't out to destroy him.  LOL.


A couple of other things that we did, that may have helped.  First, I never used baby talk with him.  When he was two months old in a basket, I would explain to him that was changing out a washer in the sink, why I was doing it, how I was doing it, and I would talk in exactly the same tone that I would talk to a co-worker in.  Of course he was 2 months, but then he was 6 months, and then 12 months.  When he started talking, he was talking like an adult practically from day 1.  I remember one phone call to my mom when he was probably 5 years old and she said to me (after) that feels like she's talking to an adult.  Where it helps is when they're with older kids in school - they simply sound more mature.  David wasn't actually the first one I tried it on.  When I was growing up, we had a dog and I would talk to him like an adult too.  Needless to say he'd cock his head over like I was a mental case, but he remembered stuff and was brilliant, for a dog - and I think that was part of it.  Back then I figured it wasn't his fault that he was a dog and I wasn't going to treat him that way (that was my rationale).  For David, I saw the results with the dog, so it was a no-brainer.

[PokerDad]

Robert, we are very much alike. 

I will point out, FYI, the reason I am blogging is two-fold. 1. It's just for me to keep track (call it motivation, child rearing is HARD WORK) 2. People on this forum that have helped me. It gives sort of a running commentary on things we're doing. These are the only two reasons, and basically it's anonymous. The family far away does see some of the videos, but not the blog. But enough about that, I'm sure there are as many reasons people do it as there are people.

[Robert Levy]

Yea, I'm not worried about parents on this site.  And I enjoy watching the little guys...brings back memories!!

[sonya_post]

Arvi wrote:

"Just one more question. Most of the child prodigies and accelerated learners that I've read about have ended up depressed and being unhappy during adulthood. There are a few exceptions to this list like your son (great indeed). One common thing about the prodigies/accelerated learners who turned out depressed is the fact that they were accelerated in a super fast pace like graduating college at the age of 12 or less. What is your opinion on this? Did you put special efforts to ensure that your son is happy and did you make conscious effort in making him well-rounded or is it because of his personality that he is happy now."

Robert already answered this to a large degree - but I thought I'd pass along the information that was given to me by the Belin Blank Center. It is typical for advanced kids to become depressed. Usually it has little to do with how fast they were accelerated. Since the children have a hard time relating to their peers, they have a difficult time making friends. The children are lonely. They found that acceleration helps this problem - and the problem of developing laziness.  Also, when those children whose parents did make a "big" deal out of them when they were little reach their late teens and early twenties, when many of their peers have caught up to them, they aren't such a big deal anymore. It is a bit of a blow to the ego. 

[arvi]

Thanks for sharing, Robert. Sonya, you have provided another perspective to that problem. Do you think that the loneliness and laziness problem can be evaded through other means. Can you recommend any resources or books in that subject.

[Korrale4kq]

I haven't read it yet, but it has been discussed in the forum a bit. Carol Dweck did a study and wrote a book called Mindset. She talks about how it is best to encourage a child's learning capacity, their patience, their effort etc rather that praising their smarts or the end result. That may help with the lazy attitude.
That way they are encouraged to try rather than be doomed to failure.
I think Po Bronson's book The Outliers might address some of this too? I have just started the first chapter.

[Robert Levy]

"Carol Dweck did a study and wrote a book called Mindset. She talks about how it is best to encourage a child's learning capacity, their patience, their effort etc rather that praising their smarts or the end result. That may help with the lazy attitude.  That way they are encouraged to try rather than be doomed to failure."

I'm not saying it's not possible, but I'm not sure how to encourage learning capacity or patience (there may well be ways, and maybe they're covered in her book - I just don't know what they are).

As to praising smarts, I'm with her her there.  I praised accomplishment, rather than simply telling him he was smart (as that would get to his head - and he's able to figure it out fast enough anyone) - obviously I never called him stupid - in general.  But if he did something stupid, I sure let him know it - simply because I wanted him to remember and not do it again when I may not have been there to keep him out of trouble (and it happened a lot - his common sense developed at a more normal pace).  An example would be when he set up a vacation calendar for his church group.  I asked him if it was password protected - he said no, but they didn't tell any outsiders the website address.  I explained that was dumb to do, and that he needed a password - he pushed back a bit and then agreed - but I will call a spade a spade - and if it's dumb, I'll let him know it, in a way that he remembers.

As far as the end result, which is really what led me to comment, here's my take:  It depends.  If the material is hard and he tries, then definitely praise the effort - and then work with him until he does get it right.  But don't praise the effort if the material is easy, but he gets it wrong.  With David, at least, that was the path of laziness - just do it real quick and don't care about whether it's right or wrong.  If I accepted that, he would have been knocking out Saxon sections every 20 minutes.  So it's a balance, and it's easy enough for a parent to know whether the kid should have gotten the right answer.

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