We Can Do by Moshe Kai with guest Robert Levy discussing Saxon Math.

[Robert Levy]

I hear you Mela,

One of the scary parts about an on-line curricula is the way it can be changed.  Here in Texas, if you are involved in CSCOPE, and are called to testify to the State Senate, it can go like this (where they did have a hearing, and part of what I'm saying is true...I just don't know how much):

1)  You are given questions in advance, based on people that have disclosed some CSCOPE comments.  One question asks about CSCOPE stating that the Boston Tea Party was a terrorist act (which is what they said).
2)  You arrive at the State Capitol, swear to tell the truth under threat of perjury.
3)  You are asked about the Boston Tea Party and you state that that reference has been deleted from CSCOPE, which is true, as the reference was deleted a few days ago, after the questions arrived.
4)  The hearing ends, you go home.
5)  The next day, you put the reference back into CSCOPE, without having committed perjury.

Number 1, above is likely true, number 3 is true, and I don't know about number 5, but there's nothing to stop it.

My point is that the curricula is now totally in control of the schools and parents and others never can be sure of what they're seeing or being told about.  In fact, the curricula could easily be 'updated' at 3:30 PM every day to something likeable to the parents.  So when the parents come to see the teachers, they pull up a very nice, traditional curricula, but by 7 AM the next morning it's back to the old version for the kids.

I realize that I'm sounding paranoid, but I follow education as close as I can in Texas and I am really shaken up by the way the schools were able to slip in CSCOPE, bypassing all accountability that our state has (which is a lot), and then deploy it to 80% of our school districts, almost without a whimper.

So, what I'm getting at, is that there has to be some configuration control of these electronic curricula if they are  used (basically a locked-down version that cannot be modified without an official revision), otherwise it's no different than a contract that you can modify at will after signing.  But I doubt that legislators can figure that all out.  I wasn't even able to figure that out until it was pointed out at our State Senate hearing.

As to what's better - I'm with you - BOOKS!!!  They worked for my kid, starting with Saxon Math and all through college.  He never had to deal with a "virtual" curriculum and he did fine.

[Robert Levy]

"The curriculum is open to interpretation and that interpretation can make a huge difference to what is taught. In our state there is only one line in the curriculum about handwriting. ONE LINE! it certainly doesn't cover fonts, typing, print or cursive. It's just covers legibility. That's all they deamed important apparently.  Math interpretations would make a difference to the level of difficulty taught within the math strands. Not to mention the amount of practice time and whether any math facts are memorised."

Mandabplus3 ,

I remember reading somewhere that schools JUST LOVE parental involvement...until.  Until the parents start to question the curricula.  Then those people turn into Tasmanian Devils.  Try it, you'll think you were a bit south of Hobart or something.  It seems that they like parents to help with the chores, run the bake sales, chaperone the trips, but don't want them anywhere near the "Adult" decisions,  I read that in the context of either parents trying to get Saxon Math into their schools (back when they were competing head-to-head with Big Textbook, as I call them), or trying to get Everyday (or Connected) Math out of their schools.  Either way, the parents were presenting their own research, and the schools did not like it one bit.


"Our Saxon is still progressing nicely. We are managing just under one a day now that school is in full swing and gym is 6 hours a week."

Nice, you're doing fine.  I agree with the others, don't worry about the SI units, metric is easy to pick up.  My kid had to do the same for college and never skipped a beat (and neither did I).

[Korrale4kq]

I am certainly going to have to do some more research into all this. One of my best friend with 3 young kids lives in TX and I want to make sure she is up to date on everything.

However... I was under the impression that all states had to adopt the common core standards by 2014. I wonder what made Texas exempt. I also thought I remember reading that Texas was one of the few states that did not use the horrid Everyday Math curriculum. And I applauded them for that.
They use that everyday math here in ohio and upper elementary students are struggling. And contrary to the initial philosophy  it is not teaching mathematical thinking.

[Robert Levy]

"However... I was under the impression that all states had to adopt the common core standards by 2014. I wonder what made Texas exempt. I also thought I remember reading that Texas was one of the few states that did not use the horrid Everyday Math curriculum. And I applauded them for that.
They use that everyday math here in ohio and upper elementary students are struggling. And contrary to the initial philosophy  it is not teaching mathematical thinking."

Actually, Common Core is by bribery, not mandate.  All but 4 states (Texas being one of those 4) took the bait (as I say), and now have their curricula handed to them from DC.  California had to tone down their math standards to match the feds - they no longer require Algebra in 8th grade, but now in 9th (albiet, 8th was pretty agreesive for them, but it's interesting that they had to go backwards).

Yes, our State Board of Education rejected Everyday Math.  Schools are still permitted to use it, but the state won't pay for the books...so they wind up not using it (i.e., good).  But all of that is mute with CSCOPE, as there's no accountibility with it, and if they want to take the worst from Everyday Math, no one can stop them, and, in fact, no one will even know.  And as you do your research, you'll find that pretty much what they did...their approach to teaching has a lot in common with Everyday Math.

[TeachingMyToddlers]

Here an article discussing this curriculum. Just wow.

http://www.wnd.com/2013/02/parents-gain-access-to-secret-school-curriculum/

[Mandabplus3]

Hey Robert    since your back again ( I know you missed us  )
What are your thoughts on having the children mark their own Saxon lessons?
Also what are your thoughts on reducing the quantity output if children are struggling to get accuracy?

We have another thread going which is Saxon heavy    and these are the key questions. The children under this curriculum are that to be self sufficient and independant in their education. Saxon comes first then they mark their own and fix their own mistakes. Then they write whatever for a page ( which daddy marks) and then they read classics and history for the remaining time up to 6 hours. Apparently the curriculum is effective.

My thoughts are sure, have your kids mark them if you trust them to do it accurately. But I also think its important for parents to mark them too, in order to keep an eye on where your kids are falling behind. If they constantly get the same questions wrong then that is a problem that needs addressing. If they are marking it you may never know. I make my daughter go and fix any mistakes she makes herself. If she is completely stick I send her to look up the lesson it was taught in ( if possible) or we sit together and I ask guiding questions until she figures it out.
As to reducing the quantity, I think if a kid is struggling they really need more not less...but we just do as much as time permits anyway so that one won't effect us.
Here is the thread link to the other topic.
http://forum.brillkids.com/teaching-your-older-child/swann-family-10-children-with-ma-at-age-16!-book-review-and-discussion-thread/

[Robert Levy]

Hi Mandabplus3,

Yea, this has been my little hiding place.  I haven't tried diving into the rest of this website.  I'll comment on your posting:

"Hey Robert since your back again ( I know you missed us)
What are your thoughts on having the children mark their own Saxon lessons?"

NEVER!!  Well, at least in my case (and my kid agrees, I asked him), and I'd suspect in most cases for boys.  The way that I see it, unless the kid is really motivated, such as begging to do Saxon sections rather than X-Box 360, then I simply would not trust the kid to accurately mark up his own work.  His motivation will be to get back to something more fun, as quickly as possible (i.e., Mom!!, I got them all right).  That was certainly David's case and it doesn't mean that the kid is a bad or anything, it just means that the kid, understandably, cannot see any value at all in doing those weird math problems, when television, video games, and who knows what else are out there.  In other words, the kid will cheat in whatever ways can get him liberated from that book.  This question is a no-brainer for me, for my situation.  There may be other kids that are a bit more motivated, but not David.


"Also what are your thoughts on reducing the quantity output if children are struggling to get accuracy?"

Not having anyone other than David, I'll give my thoughts, but I don't really have a basis for comparison.  I think that kids can spend about 15 to 20 hours a week on Saxon, which is about what David spent.  It's hard work for them, but it pays off big-time, as the total number of hours they spend getting through math, to Calculus level is probably half of what it would be if they went at a slower pace (and had to keep re-learning).  So, to answer your question - you do it by the number of hours.  I think more than 20 in a week would be tough (but maybe possible), so even if the kid is slow, you have to limit to that.  But you must demand the accuracy, or your wasting your time (and his).  If he's having trouble with earlier stuff, then go back and get that covered, before trying to progress in Saxon.  The number of sections that I suggest doing per week is really based on the assumption that the earlier stuff (all the way back to addition tables) have been fully mastered.  If not, then you definitely need to slow down - and you can, since you (not the classroom teacher) control the pace.


"We have another thread going which is Saxon heavy and these are the key questions. The children under this curriculum are (taught) to be self sufficient and independant in their education."

Sorry, that's new-age stuff for me.  I'm a proponent of total traditional education - that's how it's done in Asia and they run circles around us.  That's also how I did it with David, and he's run circles around everyone anywhere near his age.  I realize that we're always searching for that magic bullet...but it doesn't exist in education, it's simply hard work.


"Saxon comes first then they mark their own and fix their own mistakes. Then they write whatever for a page ( which daddy marks) and then they read classics and history for the remaining time up to 6 hours. Apparently the curriculum is effective."

I don't know the age, but overall, I don't see much value in anything other than reading and math, until about high school (maybe a bit before).  In other words, if reading classics (as opposed to learning to read) and history (and science) detract from reaching the 15 to 20 hours of Saxon (and/or remedial math, if needed), then, in my opinion, the schedule should be rebalanced.  As I see it, kids have one chance to become very good in reading and very good in math, and that is when they are very young.  Regardless of what the 'experts' say, if the kids miss that opportunity, they may learn reading and math, but it will be a struggle, maybe for life.  Other stuff, history and science, will come much, much easier if reading and math have already been fully mastered.  Stuff beyond that, gymnastics, piano, karate, etc. - maybe do some of that, but not to the point where it cuts into the number of hours for math (and early reading)...I know that I sound like a radical, but I give my opinions here - no one has to listen to me.  It just drives me up the wall to hear other parents treat Saxon as optional, while gymnastics, violin, and other stuff are mandatory.


"My thoughts are sure, have your kids mark them if you trust them to do it accurately. But I also think its important for parents to mark them too, in order to keep an eye on where your kids are falling behind.  If they constantly get the same questions wrong then that is a problem that needs addressing. If they are marking it you may never know. I make my daughter go and fix any mistakes she makes herself. If she is completely stick I send her to look up the lesson it was taught in ( if possible) or we sit together and I ask guiding questions until she figures it out."

I agree, other than saying why bother even having them do the marking?  It doesn't take long for parents to do the same and like you said, you can tell where the problems are.  Or if there are enough mistakes, then the kid is simply not trying, which is what happened with David a number of times.  In those cases, I ripped up his work and made him redo the section, and I wasn't happy about it.  He got the message that that tactic wasn't going to work on me.  Also, just as you said, I also had David look back at the earlier sections and try his best to answer the question.  Obviously if he was completely stuck, I would start giving hints, but only after he spent a decent amount of time trying.


"As to reducing the quantity, I think if a kid is struggling they really need more not less...but we just do as much as time permits anyway so that one won't effect us."

Exactly, as I said.  But if you're at 15 to 20 hours on Saxon, you're about maxed out, so reducing quantity really isn't a factor...the kid is working just as hard, but on earlier material.

[Robert Levy]

Wow, I think I met my match with that Robinson guy (on the other thread).  He seems to think just like me (unlike 99% of the rest of the country)...that the kid is clueless and needs direction and discipline.  I don't feel like as much of a radical listening to this guy...and seeing the respect he has here.

[Jenene]

Nice to have you back Robert.  I know I enjoy reading what you have to say.  Glad to see you have read the other thread and like what Dr Robinson has to say.  The independence in learning that is fostered in the families that we are discussing is very much within a structured framework (curriculum and schedule).

Mandabplus3, I know this question was directed to Robert but I just thought I would share my plan for self-marking.  (And I reserve the right to change my mind on this at any stage in the next 10 years or so!)  I agree completely that a child who has no accountability in marking their own work is quickly going to discover that they can 'get it all right' and move on to the more fun things as Robert says.  For those of us who do want to work toward independence (which I think becomes more important to us the more children that we have  ) than we have to work out how to work in accountability while still having the child work as independently as possible.

At this stage as my son is not yet 6 years old, I do spend a majority of the lesson/marking sitting with him.  Not so much to help him as to simply keep him on track     By the end of 5/4 he was getting much more independent/focuses but then we had a 3 week break .... .... and we begin again....  Anyway, my ultimate goal is for him to work mostly indpendently including correcting for a lesson per day and then on Saturdays he will do the test that is available (we have the 3 book set).  I will then mark this test.  I hope that this will give me a good idea of idea of how he is really going.  Obviously, I will also be around during the week while he is doing his lesson and (silently) checking random questions as he works/marks.  Now, if there is an issue with honesty with marking things would change very quickly and some type of 'incentive' to work properly would need to be discussed.

[Mandabplus3]

Thanks!
So it looks like I can get one of my three kids to mark their own work occasionally. I don't trust the other two at all!  since thet just isn't going to save me much time I think I will just continue to mark them all. Sigh
We arnt getting to 15-20 hours of Saxon a week. We get to 10 most weeks. Should be 10 a week from now on as life just got routined!
Robert you do a lovely job of slapping me in the face each time you visit 
" it just drives me up the wall to hear other parents treat Saxon as optional and gymnastic, violin and other stuff as mandatory"
well I thought my Saxon WAS mandatory but it appears even I am too relaxed. I thought i was a hard ass! Well you will be proud to hear I told my girl I wasn't driving her to gym until her Saxon was done. She knows I never say anything I don't mean so she knew I meant it. She was of course done in time.  time to adjust the rules and expectations a little. 
Since our last chat I have changed my mind a little about the reading. It appears I do believe their is still more learning to be done in reading. I had decide de that like you once they can read well they are done with reading but I no longer think that way. I believe there is still more learning to be done WITH reading as the focus. Learning about sentance structure, creative writing, developing a sence of world experiences, history, vocabulary, developing deeper thought patterns or creativity and deeper comprehension. Now I see a need for more reading where before I was done with it. However I don't see that as an excuse to take time away from our Saxon so the girls are required to read from a selection of books I have given them each night before bed.
I also can use our dead time in the car for audio stories as since the point of reading now IS NOT to learn to read but to learn, audio stories became more useful.
The writing part of the whole thing I just can't find room for just now so that is shelved for now hopefully school will cover it well enough for now.
Yes I did think you might like that Robinson guy 

[Robert Levy]

"Robert you do a lovely job of slapping me in the face each time you visit.
" it just drives me up the wall to hear other parents treat Saxon as optional and gymnastic, violin and other stuff as mandatory" "

LOL.  Obviously I don't know you specifics, but back in David's early reading days I was trying to teach a couple of girls his age...they could make it to my house twice a week.  It was hopeless.  Now, one of the two families that use Saxon (the Russian one, not the Hispanic one - Americans are hopeless, they just think David is a "smart" kid - you know that line)  just doesn't have much time for it either, what with Russian lessons, gymnastics, and who knows what else.  But they try, so I give them credit.

[Robert Levy]

Hi Jenene,

I'll make a few comments here:

------------------------------------------------------------
"Glad to see you have read the other thread and like what Dr Robinson has to say.  The independence in learning that is fostered in the families that we are discussing is very much within a structured framework (curriculum and schedule)."

I agree, it is structured, especially the way Dr. Robinson ran his home.  And, of everything, and I mean everything, in that video, the only disagreement that I had was the self-marking...and I consider that very minor, since if the kid is honest, it doesn't matter who grades, and if he's not going to be honest, then the parent needs to either take over, or somehow make the kid understand that honest is a smoother path.  I also have to yield to a single parent with 6 kids - what was not much trouble for me with grading David can become a lot more trouble with many kids, so yes, it's important to find ways to keep time available.

Now the Unschooling stuff that was discussed is frightening to me, and is one of the few non-physical abuses that I would support CPS taking kids away.  If a home schooled kid wants to play with Hot Wheels or a video game to the point that he doesn't learn math or reading, then he needs new parents.

As far as independent studying goes, I'm about talked out...

[Robert Levy]

Mandabplus3 ,

"So it looks like I can get one of my three kids to mark their own work occasionally. I don't trust the other two at all! since that just isn't going to save me much time I think I will just continue to mark them all."

Yea, and you'll get good at it, so it'll be a breeze.


"Well I thought my Saxon WAS mandatory but it appears even I am too relaxed. I thought i was a hard ass! Well you will be proud to hear I told my girl I wasn't driving her to gym until her Saxon was done. She knows I never say anything I don't mean so she knew I meant it. She was of course done in time.  tongue time to adjust the rules and expectations a little."

I like it.  Use the stuff she like to motivate her to do the important stuff (i.e., Saxon).


"Since our last chat I have changed my mind a little about the reading. It appears I do believe their is still more learning to be done in reading. I had decide that like you once they can read well they are done with reading but I no longer think that way. I believe there is still more learning to be done WITH reading as the focus. Learning about sentence structure, creative writing, developing a sense of world experiences, history, vocabulary, developing deeper thought patterns or creativity and deeper comprehension."

There probably is, I just dig into it.  But if learning this stuff doesn't detract from learning math, then there's nothing wrong it.  The point being that this can be learned later, but not math (to speak of).


"Now I see a need for more reading where before I was done with it. However I don't see that as an excuse to take time away from our Saxon so the girls are required to read from a selection of books I have given them each night before bed."

Then you're fine.


"The writing part of the whole thing I just can't find room for just now so that is shelved for now hopefully school will cover it well enough for now."

School will.  And they will fill in other stuff.  That was part of my strategy with David.  Since he was going to school, I figured any loose ends that I missed would get picked up, and they did.  Reading and Math are the really, really, critical stuff, because (in my opinion) the schools teach them in a way that they know will fail the kid, and as I always say, the kid only gets one chance to learn reading and math, and be fluent at it.  They may still learn it later, but they will suffer greatly.


"Yes I did think you might like that Robinson guy."

I'm going to watch it again and then put up a posting of what I agree with, since he says it some much better than I can.

[Jenene]

Being that we are in an early learning forum where the emphasis is on teaching (in a fun and unpressured way but still teaching) babies and young children to read, do math, learn perfect pitch and so much more I seriously doubt that any of us would actually be unschoolers.  I'm sure we may follow the child's lead to a degree and expose them to the things that interest them but I imagine that there are still expectations and structure within this.  And it seems that those of us with older children tend to start imposing/expecting more structure as they grow older and get closer to the more formal schooling years.  To me when you see what a little structure and routine can do (have a BABY reading/counting etc...) then you are more encouraged to expose your child to good curriculum, books etc... With a structure and expectations of outcomes and not just let them decide what to do/learn and hope it works out.

From what I have read most children who are unschooled learn to read by themselves usually around age 7.  I just can't see that brillkids/Little Reader and unschooling can work together.

Are there any unschoolers here??  Any thoughts??

[Robert Levy]

"Are there any unschoolers here??  Any thoughts?? "

No, sorry, I didn't mean to imply there were - I doubt it too.  The term just set me off because they're the same bunch of people that have wrecked our schools...and now they wreck their own kids even worse.

And no, if you're teaching the kid what he needs to learn (or at least being sure it is being learned), then you're not "unschooling" - even if the kid gets to select stuff outside of the core curriculum.

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