We Can Do by Moshe Kai with guest Robert Levy discussing Saxon Math.

[Robert Levy]

"...the (college) degree is the new high school diploma."

PokerDad, my kid said EXACTLY the same thing after I mentioned it to him, after my posting.  I'm not in a hiring position, but given so many college grads to choose, for any job, why hire someone that you're not even sure can read, much less do arithmetic.

Obviously, what Jenene is calling high-school level, will actually be full college level, by the time she's done educating her kids.  The problem is that so many resumes are now received, that many, many, employers simply jettison the ones that don't have 4-year degrees.  She'll never even get a human review...unless she has an inside contact.

Anyway, those are my (and David's) view - but excellent topic to discuss.

[Tamsyn]

I want to clarify more what I meant when I said that college wasn't the end goal.  While I did suggest that I'm open minded to my kid not going to college if they are so busy running a successful business, I really do think a degree is important for the reasons Robert pointed out.  I was also thinking about Arkiane in an interview.  (Conversations, about 17:00  http://akiane.com/video).  She said "After school, what am I going to do?  There's so much more than that."  For her, it worked, so I'm open minded.  When I say college isn't the end goal, it's because I think a lot of parents in our society focus so much on college life forgetting that after college life goes on and they need to be able to support a family as well.

I'm also going to make the sexist comment that I think it's the husband's job to provide for a family and I think it is ideal for the mother to be home with the children.  I have different expectations for my daughters, and while I strive to give them a superb education and think that they should be equally educated as boys,  I am not as concerned about what their resume will look like as I am my sons.  I also recognize that a successful entrepreneur doesn't need resume- his employees will!

But my oldest is only 5.  I'll cross that road when we get there.  Right now I'm more focused on preparing him for Saxon 5/4!

[Mandabplus3]

Tamsyn, I don't think your comment is particularly sexist as much as sensible BUT I do hope your views on that don't continue too far into your children's education. It is fine for you to believe that a woman's role is with her family, but times have changed somewhat. Our girl children don't often find their perfect husbands during school anymore, they need a strong education to support themselves in the world for the years between school leaving and child rearing. The child bearing age is much higher now. What will your girl children do from 18 to 26 ( or even 35) when they have their first child?
I concern with you thinking like this is that you are automatically stunting the education and expectations from your girls. Whether you do it knowingly or not your attitude will rub off on them.
There is no reason to think that girls don't need to be pushed as hard as boys just because they won't use the skills for as long. The alternative thinking is that girls should know all their husbands know and a little more so that they can be the rock he needs in times of stress and struggle. Have your girls prepared for their role as supportive wife as best as you can.
I also believe mothers make the best teachers for their children, but as my children go to school I also have a career. I drop my kids off to school, pick them up and still I have a career. One I wouldn't have if I hadn't completed two degrees! The more educated you are the more say you have with your working hours and conditions ( not to mention pay!) with education children can have the best of both worlds. 
I also believe a degree is the new diploma. I have been on the hiring end many times, I screened by quality of resume writing style, education level and then personality before I looked at anything else.
It's clear to me that my oldest will go to university already and she is only 9 now! I am 90% sure my son will. It's something in their personalities. My middle girl is still ' different, creative' so I can't guess what is in her future but we are discussing possibilities already at age 7. I think talking about it now gives them motivation in their studies and avoids the potential teenage rebellion problems. If they have a firm goal teenage years will be so much easier on them all.
I just think its important that our attitudes towards our children's futures will rub off in the way we educate them. Our standards should be as high for our girls as they are for our boys. Even if our level of protection needs to be higher we shouldn't be sacrificing their educational expectations to achieve that.
Koreale thanks for that info on the open university. I always wanted to confirm what everyone here says, that our universities really are world class standard. Glad to hear it is harder than your hubbies....hmmm makes we want to sign up for another degree. I love learning 

[Jenene]

I personally do think a degree is important but I also know that there are many other ways to be successful in the world.  In some ways it does worry me to think that my children may not go on to earn degrees as that is what my husband and I were both taught and did.  And that is where we will be heading.  But I don't believe that it is for everyone or it is the only way to be successful in life (and success is not just about money).  I am actually more interested in giving them a good academic foundation but also helping them to find their talent or passion.  I also imagine that by the time they finish their formal schooling years they will have done quite a few external courses through uni or similar. 

[Robert Levy]

I throw in my 2 cents here.

I think that a college degree with career potential is definitely as good for a girl as a boy, although a girl (woman) may spend a decade or two raising kids, while the husband works.  In my case, I still can remember when my mom went back to work - I was maybe 5 years old.  She explained that it was only for 2 days a week, but even that was too much.  It then became 3 days, and then 5 days.

It was tough for me, as I was (and still am) very attached to her.  But it wound up being a good move as my dad got sick with brain cancer when I was 9 and died 2 years later.  She needed to work, obviously, for us to have a chance of protecting our lifestyle, so it worked out, even if I was completely out of control.  But the key thing for her was that she has a PhD in Mathematics (I think a total of 2 women got that degree in the United States that year, 1959).

But it was her degree that saved her, and us.  Without that piece of paper, things would have been very tough.

One of the best engineers that I ever worked with was a young woman (so young that she couldn't rent a car on business trips).  The company loved her and was ready to skyrocket her to the upper stratosphere.  Only thing was, she had 3 kids, and decided that homeschooling them was more important.  So she quit.  We all know that, even if we don't have budget, we'll take her back in a heartbeat (i.e., we will "find" budget for her).  But, again, the ticket for her, initially, was her piece of paper, not her brain - for without the paper, we would never have considered hiring her in the first place, even though the work she was doing required, maybe, 10% of her education (if that).

So that is my take on it.

[PokerDad]

I think everyone here is correct and making sound points.

Education is so much more than just a college degree, let alone "getting into college," and too many people out there have been focused on this to the point of demanding higher grades leading to a lot of grade inflation at the cost of reduced quality across the board. Hence Mr. Levy's point (and A. Robinson's as well) that by the time our little ones reach that age, a degree will likely be today's (or yesterday's to be more precise) diplomas.

When I was in college 10 years ago, I'd say that an easy 50% of the people there were flat out below par and didn't belong. There are several factors as to why they were there (some of which was top down mandates on disadvantaged demographics), but this observation along with the obvious college isn't for everyone is another reason why the degree itself isn't even respected like it once was (the sheer percentages with degrees is the big reason). Masters is the new college degree.

Having said all that, there's a difference between a good education and employable skills. Hopefully you can get both at the time. For others, get the education and some skills before college age (which will be my goal for my little one).

I think what Mr. Levy, Moshe Kai, the Swanns, the Robinsons have all shown us is that there is so much wasted time in the school years that it should be very achievable to have a quality education (for its own sake, to be a better person) and still have time left over to learn a trade or two if that's the route you want.

Those trades are very under-rated, and I can tell you that if you can combine the skill with the theoretical understanding, it will equal upward mobility if you have the ethic to go along with it. Mr. Levy gave a good example of knowing how to fix cars - but now he also knows a lot about the principles behind the car itself, and (I don't know if true) could perhaps go a long ways to designing one from an engineering perspective.... if not cars, then jet engines, jet parts, etc, whatever the case may be.

In short, degree is part of education and likely necessary for quality of life, but isn't the whole of education, and an educated person is what we would all want to strive for ourselves as well as our children.

 

[Mandabplus3]

Well put.
My own son is very hands on. He is likely to take a trade route to employment. However he loves math and is very bright ( age for age he is above his sisters). It seems such a waste to me to send a bright boy into a trade via apprenticeship. I understand the value of apprenticeships especially to a " master" but I can't help but think he could manage a more top down approach to the trades.
That's where university degrees fit in. If he can get his degree started early, he can apprentice and be doing his degree ( engineering, business or arts...) and be an overqualified but fully qualified apprentice by the time the other children are looking at their 3rd year of uni. Hence giving him an extra 2 years as a fully qualified tradey in the field over an above his peers. Thus he will have more experience when he branches out in his own business.
I assume most of my children will have their own business at some point as that is how we make most of our money and they are being grout up in that environment. We also talk about it all the time  they will have good business sence and supportive parents if nothing else!
In Australia the dumming down of students in University just doesn't happen. I never met anyone in either of my degrees at uni who shouldn't have been there by the end of year one.  The degrees start off at year one with  at least one third more students as will actually finish. If they can't hack it they won't pass and can't continue. No free rides. Degrees here are still worth their salt. A masters is just for people with a specific research interest. And very specifically valued only in certain sectors.

[Korrale4kq]

I agree with the course work of an Australian degree being more  rigorous. At least Macquarie vs OSU. But a BA or BS  in Australia is a shorter degree. However it is a specific degree. A BA does not have to have any math or science. There is an entire year missing of general education that the US college system requires.

I do think a degree or a trade will be mandatory for my son. I am trying to raise him to see the importance.
I tutor and my student says she will never go to college. I have heard people say things like "Gates and Zuckerberg are drop outs. Look how successful they are!" What I like to remind people is that both of those men are exemplary.

[nee1]

I got this in my email box today - http://www.thehomescholar.com/the-5-biggest-mistakes-parents-make-when-homeschooling-high-school.php. I felt it was relevant to our discussion, and thought I'd share.

[cokers4life]

http://www.uncollege.org/

I found this website to be very relevant to the discussion on college education and its importance or the lack there of.   It also has a very interesting reading list. 

http://www.uncollege.org/reading-list/

[Tamsyn]

Me again.  My husband and I have been talking a lot about if/why college is important to us, so I'll try to clarify again.

It's kind of funny that I've been an advocate for alternatives to college here, because it wasn't but a month ago on my local homeschooling group that I was emphasizing the IMPORTANCE of college.  It's a different group.  There they had the same argument, that college is the new high school, but with a different twist.  High school is what people do because they have to.  We weren't very impressed by a lot of our peers in college.  It's something a lot of youth here do because they have to, and sadly, that undermines the value of a degree to some point.  A college degree is essential in the corporal world, but it isn't enough to ensure success.  There's something to be said for learning to comply and jump through hoops to get things done as well.  My dad and his brothers had a family business.  Sadly his parents didn't think college was that valuable and they didn't encourage their kids to get a degree because they had a family business and thought their kids wouldn't need it.  It was a successful family business and all of them were able to provide for their families.  However, it was my dad and his one brother that did get a degree- in spite of parents who wanted them to work the business instead- that took the business to the next level.  My dad's inventions are the best selling products, and my uncle's business sense and diplomacy in Asia, particularly Indonesia were what took the business to the next level, and everybody benefited.  My dad's degree was in public speaking, not chemistry, but he learned how to research and study in college and part-way through his masters, and that SKILL is what helped him in his business.

There was a girl that liked my husband quite a lot who wanted to be a homemaker  She didn't think it was important to go to school. She graduated from high school and started working at Pizza Hut.  He wasn't very interested in her.  Frankly, I went to school to get an MRS degree.  My plan A was to get married as soon as possible and start a family.  But I didn't get married right away and ended up getting married with just a year left of school.  I did have a plan B for a successful life where I could provide for myself and live a life of purpose.  That's the key, I think.  I studied hard and I was a good student.  I recognized that if I wanted to marry a prince, so to speak, I would have to be a princess.  Education was, is, and always will be very important to me.  Why else would I spend so many hours teaching my kids?  My husband recognized that, and he found that attractive.  He wanted a wife who would stay home with the kids, but he also wanted a wife that he could have an intelligent conversation with.  I like to think I fit the bill.    I also have a skill I could use to provide for our family, if need be, and that brings us a lot of peace of mind. If needed, I wouldn't apply for a job, I would create a piano studio.  I made pretty good money teaching before I had my degree with a skill I learned before college, and while I could charge more because of my degree and certainly am a better teacher for it, I did have that skill when I graduated from high school.  I still think I would have been a well-prepared wife right out of high school.  It's nice to have that piece of paper, but if I had to go back I would have done just what I did- go to school to get an MRS degree.

I like that people have mentioned "college or a trade".  My sister hasn't gone to college, but she has traveled internationally three times to volunteer to speak English, and she speaks Chinese now- something that, for the right job, would look just as or more appealing to an employer than that piece of paper.  She's saving up to become a midwife (ie, a trade).  She is doing amazing things with her life.  My husband said that if he was still single, a young lady like that wouldn't be any less appealing to him than a girl going to school.

My sons WILL need to know how to earn money well, period.  That's plan A and B, whether they get married or not.  My girls might be single their whole life or need to provide for a family for unknown reasons, so they might need a financial career and should be prepared for it.  We'll prepare them for that.  The point still remains that ideally they would become a good wife and mother.  If they are well educated and learn to value education, I don't think I'm setting them up for failure with that attitude.  I admit that my religion plays a big role in that attitude as well.  For my girls, and my boys, I just want them to be happy.  I recognize that a superb education brings happiness.  It brings financial security.  I want that for them, and my husband and I will encourage them to do college, probably online during their teenage years.  Happiness also comes from a strong moral foundation and knowing how to work hard and being willing to "take chances, make mistakes, and get messy!"

[Robert Levy]

Hi people,

Here's a British article about how uneducated people are in arithmetic.  Nothing to be surprised about, it's all calculators these days and the results show it.  As I'm sure I mentioned, calculators were out of the question for David, but even with Saxon (the old Saxon) it gets harder as you get to the high school levels.  Towards the end, I was making up trig and log tables, just to keep him from using a calculator.  But then sure enough, he would get problems with lots of digits and no rounding, which could take a couple of hours to do by hand - so I did finally relent a bit, but I still held the calculator and he had to ask to use it on specific problems.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2292043/One-adults-simple-sums-past-100-calculator.html

[PokerDad]

The article's conclusion is very sad. It's also obvious in looking at the demographics that the mathematical decline has been in the last 30 years and trending even worse recently. My guess is that the proliferation of the calculator is a big reason, which means I think you're right.

I was thinking back to my high school days (the math I took in college wasn't that difficult since I wasn't in one of the STEM) - and in my last year of high school they handed me a Texas Instruments graphing calculator. I can't tell you a single thing from that whole year of math other than the teacher sucked and I had no idea what was going on or what they were trying to teach, if anything. Prior to that, I didn't use a graphic calculator (though I did use one in trig when calculating radians and all that).

Mental math isn't my forte, but I'm not weak at it. I can usually calculate percentages in my head to within a decimal point. I can do basic stuff in my head but do get overwhelmed if there's too many digits or numbers while trying to do it my head.... but that's a different discussion. Maybe someday I'll take up Anzan.
 

[Mandabplus3]

Wow! How sad. I find it hard to get my head around just how low the standards are! I didn't even do calculus or trig in school but I can sure add numbers well beyond 100! I can calculate most things in my head, and can very quickly give accurate estimates in the middle of conversations.. I just can't understand how the results can be so low. When I finished school I was considered middle of the pack for math. ( top of the second band) I didn't need math for my career so I didn't select difficult math units in years 11-12. Math wasn't compulsory but even I could see not doing any was a stupid idea!
So glad calculators aren't allowed in my kids schools yet. Hopefully we will be far enough ahead it won't matter when they are introduced!

[MummyRoo]

We were allowed a calculator in year 9 maths. I very quickly lost all my quick mental arithmetic skills. I started doing even the most basic sums on the calculator (the type, like 7+12, which is actually quicker to do in your head than punch into the calculator) and even though I was at the top of the top group for maths, my Mum (who was middle in maths) is much better at mental arithmetic than me.

Saying that, I can do a lot of sums in my head if I make some effort. More than most - calculating percentages and adding large numbers etc. I have had to re-learn the skill, though, and am not nearly as fast as I'd like.

Is anyone else completely confused why the 11x table was said to be the hardest? I'd put it right up with the 5x for simplicity... 

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