We Can Do by Moshe Kai with guest Robert Levy discussing Saxon Math.

[Robert Levy]

Korrale4kq ,

"Unlike Robert, we are going for a little more math understanding. I am sure if I drilled him with flash cards I could have him memorize all those math facts by the time he is 3."

I only had one kid to work with, so other kids (maybe most other kids) may be much different.  I can only relate to what worked and didn't work for me.  I did try hard with concepts as I couldn't understand how a kid could learn math just by memorizing - I learned from concepts up also.  But I finally gave up - it was futile, at least at the age I was working with him...which was probably about 3.

Let us know how it works out, and at the very least, I've given you options if it doesn't work - but like I say, David is a single-point example - things may be much different for other kids.


"We plan to start Saxon 5/4 with James is 4-6. Whenever I feel he is ready. I don't want to pressure him on it at too young and age but if he remains the mathy kid that he is, I think it won't be too long until we start."

That sounds great.  David was about 6.5 when he started (once I figured out it existed), so I agree - no hurry at all on it.

[Robert Levy]

To Davinia,

"Thank you so much for your response Robert, I do feel honoured to have you guidance on this (not to add to the hero worship or anything  big grin )"

Thank you too, it's always very interesting to talk to people on the inside when it comes to education.  Most of those people are very defensive about their profession (as are people in many professions), and it's difficult to get them to open up.  On this thread, there are at least two (including you), probably more, people that have taught young kids in a school setting and the stories are remarkably similar from all around the English-speaking world.


"I will do as you recommend. He knows his numbers to 20 and we were working on number value but I won't hesitate now to add maths facts in song and flash card format. I may not have been taught math in a way that left me with a burning passion but he certainly seems to enjoy it, probably from his dad's genes."

Yep, give it a shot.  He's still very young (and probably adorable).  The key is to keep an open mind, and if something doesn't work, try something else -  but definitely be quick with a number line, that was a life-saver for David.


"Glad you do not necessarily think literature is pointless, just that maths has a higher probability of guaranteeing success in later life which even  I cannot argue with - my lack of enjoying maths led to me qualifying as a secondary school teacher"

That's just what my last post was about.  I hadn't read yours at the time,  but it fits perfectly.  Liking math certainly helps as a teacher, and I loved arithmetic, so I was gunning to go with David.  But you'll do just fine, I have no doubt - your mindset is perfect.


"that is how traumatised I was by what I saw in schools even Ofsted rated Outstanding ones."

When you look at it through a political lens, as I mentioned earlier, it can help make sense of it.  In England, they have their colonial history, and that simply bothers people, a lot in some cases (not me, I got a really great country out of it)...and they tend to want to punish today's generation for that past.  All that is fine, until they get political power and start carrying it out in many ways - one being to make sure that England never produces another Isaac Newton.  I'm not saying all the politicians are like that, but enough are, and they are organized well enough to overcome the opposition (which is typically clueless anyway).


"I very quickly felt disillusioned with the school system in the UK...Perhaps it was just me"

The people that have given us this mess are much better in stifling opposition than they are at teaching kids.  I've read detailed reports on how they operate to isolate people that have 'issues'.  Basic tactics such as always telling you that no one else is complaining - and more advanced tactics (for after you've talked to others with the same issues).  An example would be a forum that the schools set up for parents to give feedback.  They will often have assigned seating, and they know the 'troublemakers', so they get split up.  Then they will plant a few people at each table to isolate the 'troublemakers' and make them feel invalidated.  Take 10 parents that all know each other and know that Everyday Math doesn't work, sit them at the same table, and you have a very powerful force.  Split them up between tables, sprinkle in one or two plants at each table to talk them down, and they don't have a chance (the others at the tables often are typical parents, and don't know anything, either way).  So don't ever let you feel isolated.


"I am talking about students about to go into university who cannot write grammatically correct structured work."

I hear you and it's simply tragic that this happens. 


"I do not remember being formally taught grammer although given the schools I was in in my indigenous hometown Nigeria, I probably was!"

I would bet on it.  Especially back then, back there, there just wasn't the organized political will to subvert education (either for political reasons, or simply to sell new coursework).  The Nigerians were taught the British method and I'm sure hung on to it much longer than the Brits, and likely still teach it.


"But I know my love of reading opened many doors and opportunities for me, so while I am passionate about sharing that with my son, I DEFINITELY want to do better than me with math. So Robert we shall be following your recommendation for math and thank you very much for bravely facing down critics of your methods, so parents like us can benefit from you willingness to tread the less beaten path."

Thanks - and it's not a choice between the two.  There will be plenty of time for both, and even lots of time for your little guy to enjoy his childhood - he just will not be wasting hour after hour being a zombie in front of a screen.

[Robert Levy]

To MummyRoo,

"Once we had drilled our way through the past GCSE exam papers in any subject, the teachers dug out the O-level papers. They are the exams my parent's generation took which were later replaced with GCSEs. We COULDN'T DO THEM!!!  It was laughable - the older the exam paper, the more we struggled!"

So you saw it first-hand.  I think I mentioned the example that Saxon used to have on their website (when they were still independent) of a school that "handed down" their old beat-up Saxon books to 'average' students, and got the latest and greatest curriculum for the honors students.  Needless to say, the Saxon kids cleaned their clocks (they obviously also had a teacher who knew how to use it).  The Saxon books represent 'yesterday' about as well as anything available now, in any subject.  The new stuff is disastrous...but it keeps coming out.

"If sending my son into the education system becomes a necessity, his primary teacher will still be me."

I like it, and as far as I know, they still cannot stop you from doing that.

[Kerileanne99]

Wow! I Love This Thread!

I have been gone a week and had A LOT of catch-up reading...

This weekend was parents weekend at the University here in Texas...one of the events we attended (hubby teaches about 3/4 of Freshman chemistry, and I tutor and teach premed chem/bio review for MCAT) was a coffee hour where parents, students, and faculty could mingle and ask questions...

Over, and over, and over again...exact same questions and complaints! "The CHEMISTRY isn't hard, I just don't get the math!" "I don't understand, I study for HOURS and HOURS, and I TOTALLY understand the chemistry...but when I try to solve the problems I get lost.." "I HATE chemistry because of the math!"

Sorry, but we are not talking difficult math here...converting metric units by moving a decimal place, logs, nothing that a college student (especially the 60% Premed average!) should struggle with.

Anybody who has read the 2-year-old math thread and others here know that our days revolve around math...various curricula, games, MathTacular Apps, RightStart Lessons (her current spine), apps, and hours of card games and board games...I have to do this for sanity as my kiddo will invent math games of her own, and incorporate math into every daily activity....even reading, she insists on reading the even-numbered pages whilst mommy reads the odd-numbered pages.....I think our home library now has nearly 200 math-based children's literature, an awesome and fun way to incorporate advanced math ideas into reading...

That being said, many of these teach concepts, and in a much more scattered order...I have personally found that at a very young age (Alex is 2yrs 10 mo) that many of the games and programs tend to focus on concepts and numeracy...VERY necessary! bUT!!!

.....just like the college students that 'study' the concepts for hours and cannot perform on an exam, Robert's points absolutely ring true for me!
Yes, during RightStart Lessons and Singapore lessons, not to mention others, she enters everything on theAbacus, uses manipulatives of all sorts, even number stamps to do problems until her writing catches up... But! Ultra fast, efficient, and CORRECT solution are ultimately the goal! We do focus on grouping, and ensuring that when she enters the number '29' on her abacus that she thinks in terms of 'three-ten, minus one'...it has been exceptionally helpful.

Two times per day, (and Alex reminds me multiple times throughout ) we do 'Super Fast Equations'...I set the timer, 'Mr. Dinger (dressed in shoes, hat, and bow tie) for five minutes.  Then I use the magnetic Melissa and Doug number set, with operation signs and equal sign, to set up as many equations as I possible can! Alex shouts out the answers just as fast and we try to beat the clock with all of the math facts to twelve that we can, mixing up operations....
SheLOVES it and it has become a favorite part of the day.  Yes, she can do them all with manipulatives or the abacus, albeit much more slowly, but the confidence and instant recall are just as much, if not more, important! BTW- as areward, she gets a stamp on her hand ( she loves these as we have reinforced that they are special and must be earned through hard work!) and a funny note: the stamp says 'I Love Math!'     soeverytime she proudly views her 'reward' a bit of brainwashing/subliminal messaging goes on!!!
You need to find a balance.

Literally, a balance! I can't even begin to explain how many math oriented things we use, but one of the best 'games' is this balance from RightStart.  You literally use it to solve equations, and is even fantastic for illustration algebraic concepts.  It is also self-checking: you can add a 10g weight to the left side, say at 10 on the number line.  Then, to 'balance' the scale, you can find all of the number fact combinations that equal 10... Or, as Alex uses it now, she will instantly recognize that by adding a weight to the 9 and the 1 on the left side, equals a 6 and a 4 on the other...
http://store.rightstartmath.com/mathbalance.asp

Wealsohave a number line in the hallway floor at all times, and everything is readily accessible... We LOVE the board game Sum Swamp, Smath, and others, as well as multiple card games...these are all exceptionally fun for reinforcement, understanding, interest, and math enjoyment... But, we also focus on fast, immediate, perfect recall of facts!
In this aspect I absolutely agree with you Robert- it IS the mastery and immediate recall that are the determining factor...providing background information and understanding is important- but no child will gain confidence and mastery of math if they have to think it through every time...always arriving at the correct answer, as quickly and confidently as possible? That is confidence-inducing every time!

[Korrale4kq]

The mastering of  math fact recall is what we are ultimately aiming for. I think it helped me become a very confident math student. And I certainly have no qualms against flash cards at all.
James just isn't there yet. He doesn't respond to high pressure requests of any sort. , but I honestly have no doubt that through our math play he will be there soon. If he has rapid and accurate recall of all basic math facts, addition, subtraction, multiplication and division by the time he is 4 I will be happy.

As for concepts... I don't think it is unrealistic at all to expect him to know those. He is currently at a Kindergarten level right now with good understanding. From my experience doing EL with other children (I have an early education teaching background) with enough exposure most kids have all the Kindergarten-1st grade concepts mastered by the time they turn 4. The issue is, most kids aren't exposed. Parents seldom know what to teach. And daycares and preschools have an emphasis on play and think that early learning can stymie a child.

[Korrale4kq]

Oh Keri,

Something I have noticed is that American math curriculum barely touches on metric. Where as they are heavy on fractions. And they do fractions in a more complicated multi step process.

When I was a little Aussie kid we spent a lot of time working on metric. Maybe too much time. But we didn't work on imperial measurement and didn't do much fraction work.

Oh and American math makes a big fuss about separating geometry and algebra. In Australia it was all just math.

[sonya_post]

Nee1 wrote:

PokerDad, point taken. But how about this story pasted by Chris1, still on that thread? Link - http://www.osaka-abacus.or.jp/english/soroban_experience.htm

I read this, but am not convinced by his comments that there is no purpose to learning the abacus. It is obviously not necessary and parents have to weigh the time they must spend to learn it vs. teaching other mental math techniques as say found in this book:  http://www.amazon.com/Mathemagics-Genius-Without-Really-Trying/dp/0737300086  A child can work through the book one day a week with additional mental math practice throughout the week. If I am to teach soroban, the reason for doing so would be the advantage rapid mental calculation provides a child. It will make so much of math work easier. Especially if a child learns to do it with precision and can tell if they have the wrong answer and "forgot to move a hundred bead". Time saved later on would be huge. But I am beginning to wonder if teaching techniques such as Arthur Benjamin has in his book would not be better than the soroban, or at least better for me as I have to learn myself and then teach it. The techniques Arthur teaches (some of them show up in the Jones Geniuses - though Dr. Jones takes it to a new level by memorizing all prime numbers to a 1000) have more uses than the soroban. That doesn't mean I am not going to do it, I am still in the "thinking" stage. regardless, you give your child an advantage by teaching some kind of rapid mental calculation.

Arthur Benjamin is here: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/M4vqr3_ROIk&rel=1" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/M4vqr3_ROIk&rel=1</a>

[Robert Levy]

"The mastering of  math fact recall is what we are ultimately aiming for."

Concur.  My approach worked in my, one, case.  Other approaches likely work too, especially with kids that aren't ready to tear down the house whenever the word "math" is mentioned.


"If he has rapid and accurate recall of all basic math facts, addition, subtraction, multiplication and division by the time he is 4 I will be happy."

Agree there - having that wired by Age 4 will put him on an excellent trajectory (especially when many kids never learn it, and the ones that do don't learn it until years later).  Age 4 is probably about when David had it down, but I don't remember for sure - but it sounds right, as I was finishing up reading just after he turned 4.


"As for concepts... I don't think it is unrealistic at all to expect him to know those."

It may be something as simple as you being more patient than myself, or have a method that works (as with everything else, I was winging it).  I just made zero headway at the time and gave up.

[Robert Levy]

"Oh and American math makes a big fuss about separating geometry and algebra. In Australia it was all just math. "

Mr. Saxon agrees with that, at least when he was alive.  There (was) no Saxon Geometry.  Instead he just spaced it through Algebra 1 and Algebra 2 (and maybe a bit in Advanced Mathematics).  It drove a lot of 'educators' nuts, because they couldn't understand how Geometry could be taught without a separate course...but it was.  The new editions, I believe, do break out Geometry.

[Korrale4kq]

Robert,

Prior to having my son, I had 10 years of being a live-in nanny, with very long hours, under my belt.  I was committed to early learning and working one on one, or mostly one on two, with 0-6 year olds. So it was my thing. It comes naturally.
I also think my exceptional early  math eduction helped me a lot. It was a lot of fun and hands on. And my love of math can't hurt.

In Queensland, the Australian state I grew up in, we just learnt math. In year 11 and 12 we just moved onto either Math A, B or C depending on the level of the student. It all just made sense. And frankly... Because it was all just math I don't  honestly know the distinction between all the maths. We didn't define trigonometry, statistics or calculus. I just knew that algebra and geometry was intrinsically different at first. One used algebraic expressions with letter the other used shapes and planes.

The downfall about math in Australian schools or at least Queensland is that it is not required past 10th grade. And certainly not in college. Because I was a natural at math I didn't do it above 10th grade. But I tutored my friends doing Math C (the hardest math) without any issues. I didn't need to learn the work, the text books were that good.
 

[Robert Levy]

Neat stuff down there, Korrale4kq.  I too remember the logical progression as I was growing up.  It was just that at the early part, they left too many loose ends.   l saw it most when I would go bowling with my friends, back before they had automatic scorers.  I had to add my scores, and got very, very, very, fast at it - I just snapped the answers, probably by second grade.  To my friends, it was a struggle, for as long as I can remember - I couldn't believe that they were so slow - but since no one expected better, that's where they wound up.

[MummyRoo]

As for concepts... I don't think it is unrealistic at all to expect him to know those. He is currently at a Kindergarten level right now with good understanding. From my experience doing EL with other children (I have an early education teaching background) with enough exposure most kids have all the Kindergarten-1st grade concepts mastered by the time they turn 4. The issue is, most kids aren't exposed. Parents seldom know what to teach. And daycares and preschools have an emphasis on play and think that early learning can stymie a child.

In the UK, pre-schools and nursery schools have been told by the schools not to teach anything beyond recognising the letter names and numbers. I think also recognising and writing their own name. The schools want everyone to start on a 'level' so they can begin teaching all kids phonics and maths from scratch when they start Reception (Kindergarten) at 4/5. The teachers don't like having to re-teach those who haven't used phonics 'correctly' (or at all) when they come to school already sounding out words/reading. It is just so much easier when nobody knows anything and the teacher doesn't need to work with different levels at the same time!

[Mandabplus3]

Koralle we did so much metric as kids because none of our parents knew it well enough o teach us. They were still using ( and mixing up ) inches AND centremetres   Math in Queensland is still the same BTW it's still just math in 3 different levels. And yep it's optional after grade 10.
So I had a chat to my favourite teacher today ( yep one of the good ones my kids get   ) she asked me quite bluntly if I had room to home school next year!!!! Oh dear it appears my second daughter is also going to get a year off learning as the school still hasn't solved the problems my oldest encountered.   I guess I will be using the school for babysitting during the day next year. Oh well I got two years of reasonable education from them in a row with this kid   Better than most kids get.

Someone asked what to focus on for a 2-3 year old age bracket. My suggestions
Fractions. So easy to teach at that age. Especially as everything you give them to eat you cut up nice and small!
One to one correspondence. Lots of counting while touching different objects in a line. Teach your kids to only count each object in a group once and to be sure to count every object in the group.
Math facts to at least 10- flash cards, games, the math balance  
Numeral recognition up to 100
Counting at least to 20 but preferably 100
Skip counting, easy to teach while playing. By 2,5,10 then 3,4,20,50
To get kids to understand their math facts use the little math program and/or make other flash cards in LR that include photos of objects relating to the math facts you are teaching. Robert most 3 year olds can learn what 4+6=10 really means. I guess in this case you didn't know how to teach it. But like I have said before don't wait until your kids understand times tables to teach them their times tables. Eventually they will understand, it need not be today.
After age 3 teach times tables, time, writing numerals and practice actually computing sums. After 3 you can pretty much teach anything including basic algebra. Before 3 your kids may stubble with the logic side of math, so before 3 focus on memorizing work after 3 focus on understanding and memorizing.
Also whoever asked...I love the mathtacular DVDs my son loves them and my girls enjoy them. They are an absolute bargain in terms of content for $$$ value and if you watch each 5 minute segment and then extend on one concept a week you will have it all covered. Saying that I also have rightstart curriculum and having an abacus is priceless, we use it all the time to demonstrate math concepts. So at the very least get one on your iPad. Mathtacular is a skeleton to fill out yourself. Rightstart is a complete curriculum.

[arvi]

Robert, Maybe I am asking a very controversial question but I want to understand your perspective on this question. I truly appreciate your son's efforts and yours. But I feel that rather than going to college early, if your son had put lots of effort few more years then he could have got entry in Ivy League colleges or the ones like MIT or Stanford. My understanding is that  colleges like those provide so much scope and rigor that would put a student in the top few % of talents which is more beneficial for the student in the long run. I know very little about universities in USA and very little about Houston university, so excuse my ignorance if Houston univ. is also in the top tier.

[nee1]

Arvi, I'm not trying to answer for Robert here, but here's my take. I'm in UK, so it may differ in the US, but most Ivy League schools do accept very young kids. The problem, however, may lie with the inconvenience to the parents. Ruth Lawrence was admitted to Oxford at age 12, Sufiah Yusef was admitted at age 12, I think. With Ruth, it was mentioned that her dad had to relocate to live at Oxford with her, as she is considered by law to be a minor. So it's rarely a matter of  the child putting in more effort to get admitted, the kids do get admitted, it's always mostly a matter of convenience/ relocation problems to the parents and family of the child.

Sending such a young child to be alone in the university if the parents work and live in a different town may not be advisable. I did mention Wajih and Zoihaib Ahmed earlier on this thread. The boys are very clever, and had very top scores (even higher than that of older students) so getting admitted at Oxford might not be a problem. However, their parents live in Southampton, and their mum hinted they would check Southampton University for their admission. Southampton is a very good school, by the way. It makes sense that  if you have a young child going to University, the child has to be close to where you are, rather than sending him off to another ‘elite’ location where you may not be able to monitor his/her progress.  If my kid completes his k-12 education early, I'll send him off to University. Why wait? He might be eligible for Oxford, but if Oxford is too far from where I work and live, I'll send him to the nearest high ranking University close to where I live. Being at Oxford does not make you clever, it may be good for the CV, but it does not make you more talented or clever.

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