We Can Do by Moshe Kai with guest Robert Levy discussing Saxon Math.

[Mandabplus3]

Very useful thank you all. I think we will need some extension math books. Good to store this info for later.
Just so you all know we use the lesson reference numbers a couple of times a month. They are definitely worth having and I imagine will be even more useful as the lessons get harder. If you want your children to self teach then lesson numbers are very important. The reference numbers are written in very small print next to the question, the number refers the student back to the lesson that that problem was introduced ( and thus explained) allowing them to look up things they have forgotten without asking mum ( or dad ) for help.

I have the 8/7 book and looking through it I agree it is redundant. I think my oldest could do it now with not much difficulty. In saying that if they are already ahead the extra calculations are only going to sharpen skills, so I will probably make them do at least half of it. I can see a point during 8/7 when it will all become torturous repetition and we will decide enough is enough and skip on to algebra 1/2. I cannot imagine even considering skipping algebra 1/2 unless you were doing grade level math and getting tuition through schools s well.

I wanted to let you know that my two girls were racing each other to finish their Saxon lessons today  it was the fastest lesson my oldest has ever completed yet ( today she beat her sister by 2 questions) I haven't marked it yet and I will make her redo the entire thing if she makes too many mistakes from laziness. Yes I have made her do one again before, mean mummy I am 

[Robert Levy]

No, you're not a "mean mummy", at least if your experience winds up anything like mine.  While I talk about David screaming at me, the fact is, today, with what he knows now, he would kill to have me force him into those lessons, if he were starting over.  Your effort (and others here) will ALWAYS  be appreciated by your kids (at least when they're a bit older).  And by the way, David probably had dozens of lessons that I made him completely redo, due to laziness.

[Robert Levy]

One more comment on the Russian woman that I know through work, who is using Saxon for her 2 kids.  I verified that it was 11 Russian families in her group that are now using Saxon.  She had told me earlier that when they saw the books, they knew it was exactly what they were looking for.  So yesterday I asked her if the books reminded her of Russian math books (she still has young relatives back in the old country that she helps tutor).  She said no, the Saxon books are much better.  She noted that the Russian books are still better than US textbooks (which isn't saying much), but she emphasized that Saxon was still better.  She also told me that the Saxon virus is now spreading to the Indian community, at least in one case that she's familiar with.  I'm surprised it took them so long to figure it out, as they were the closest people to being able to compete with David in spelling and math (and, I'm sure, still stunned that he cleaned their clocks).

I'm still waiting for the first American-born person to ask me about using Saxon (outside of this forum, of course)...

[Tamsyn]

"Saxon virus".  May all be smitten and may we never recover!

FWIW, there are a lot of American homeschoolers that are die-hard Saxon fans, I've met several.

[Jenene]

A comment for Mandabplus3, you mentioned lugging 3 books around once all your kids are on Saxon.  Just thought I would mention an organising tip that I saw on a homeschool blog the other day.  She took all her texts to an office store ( in the States but I assume they could do it here as well) and for 80cents had the binding cut off.  Then hole punched all the pages (again she could do this for free at the office store with a heavy duty punch - don't know what services ours have).  Stuck it all in a folder with clear pockets on the outside for the cover.  You could then remove the section/s that the kids are using and put in their own smaller folders to carry around and change out as needed.  Only thing that I would worry about would be how the holes would stand up to use or whether the pages would end up being pulled out of the folder.  But would save carting all those big books around.

[Mandabplus3]

Good idea! I will probably get them to cut the binding off and scan the book to the iPad though. I say this knowing I can trust my kids with the iPad and still do their work. HOWEVER your idea of filing all the pages gives me a wonderful backup for when we don't have power or my not-so-trustworthy child needs a kick up the backside and her iPad confiscated. ( hasn't happened yet I am pleased to say)
I was thinking today about the speed of progress through Saxon. We have slowed down somewhat but I calculated out that I will have one child finished all the books by the end of grade 6. That's not even high school here in Australia. My other two children have/will started at a younger age and so will be finished at least a year earlier.
 I was thinking they would be done somewhere in early high school and so wasn't too concerned as by the time we hit high school I can negotiate a distance education curriculum, early entry to university for a couple of units and grade skipping for certain classes. ( All while still attending their same school, yes I have already checked out their early graduation options  ) If they get there before grade 7 I am screwed!  I have no options for grade skipping until grade 7, no real flexible curriculum options and no distance education. I have to be honest if it was only math they were ahead in this wouldn't bother me but it is likely to be at least 3 areas they outstrip their peers in by a long way.
I can see some trouble on the horizon.  looks like my kids will have plenty of time to go through ALL of those suggested extension books.  Not just one as I assumed
In saying all that and airing my concerns I am not going to stop doing Saxon with them. It just wouldn't be right to not give them the education they are capable of. My oldest has learnt enough through saxon now that I can see its benefit in terms of knowledge, self esteem, and even some class freedom. Even my 2 nd child who has only just started saxon can see she is learning things every day. The problem is mostly with me not them. I am a little scared at the prospect of a further 10 years of negotiated curriculums and parent teacher interviews and early university  entrance meetings. I have already been working hard on their school based education so far and was hoping it would get easier with time.    home schooling is looking easy at the moment. I may have to spend my energy convincing the school on a duel enrolment... Half them half me 

[nee1]

Ok, I recently completed the book ``From Crayons to Condoms : The Ugly Truth About American Public Schools''. (http://www.amazon.com/Crayons-Condoms-Americas-Public-Schools/dp/0979267110). Please note, I'm not bashing the United States at all. I read such books because we have similar trends in Britain, and I want to prepare myself completely and knowledgeably for the future. I want to know what exactly is going on in those classrooms, as it is difficult to know except you are in the system.

So I read the book, and was outraged. Thomas Sowell's ``Inside American Education'' had unveiled most things for me, but it was still shocking to read the true live stories of parents and children who were made to pass through the entire rubbish called modern ''education''. As a senator of California was quoted in the book as saying: “An educational heresy has flourished, a heresy that rejects the idea of education as the acquisition of knowledge and skills…the heresy of which I speak regards the fundamental task in education as therapy.” Simply put, education has passed from the realm of imparting knowledge and skills  to the realm of therapy.

I quote an excerpt from ``From Crayons to Condoms'':

EVERY DAY, parents confidently send their children to school trusting that they will spend the day learning their ABCs. For far too many, that trust is woefully misplaced. Unfortunately, unsuspecting parents don’t know that many children are psychologically molested by classroom exercises, many of which focus on death and suicide, graphic sex, and invasive surveys......Sometimes these exercises conclude with the admonishment not to discuss what happened with anyone outside of the classroom. One in-service facilitator told elementary school teachers that he would show them fun ways to teach children “confidentiality.” (He failed to say from whom the children were supposed to keep these confidences. Was it Mom and Dad?).''

The above excerpt echos exactly what I had read in Thomas Sowell's ``Inside American Education''.  Yes, schools no longer teach. They are now therapy centres, asking children to sign ``confidentiality forms'' promising that they will not tell their parents what was done during the ``therapy'' sessions. No wonder children are more illiterate than ever, inspite of the long hours they spend in school each day. Rather than using the 7-8 hours of class time to teach kids how to read, write, and do math, schools waste precious hours on ``values clarification'' and providing ``therapy'' for entire classrooms etc.

Robert Levy once made a comment about avoiding math books with Nelson Mandela on the front. It was funny to me at the time. Now I understand why - it is all the so-called multiculturalism. What multiculturalism has to do with math I cannot tell. Here is an excerpt from the book:

``Senator Robert Byrd of West Virginia, in a speech before Congress on June 9, 1997, pointed out the controversial social issues integrated into today’s textbooks. In what he referred to as “wacko” algebra, the senator gave one of the best examples of this new integration technique. Quoting from the algebra textbook Secondary Math: An Integrated Approach: Focus on Algebra, Senator Byrd said:

`` Let me quote from the opening page. “In the twenty-first century, computers will do a lot of the work that people used to do. Even in today’s workplace, there is little need for someone to add up daily invoices or compute sales tax. Engineers and scientists already use computer programs to do calculations and solve equations.” What kind of message is sent by that brilliant opening salvo? It hardly impresses upon the student the importance of mastering the basics of mathematics or encourages them to dig in and prepare for the difficult work it takes to be a first-rate student in math…

Page five of this same wondrous tome begins with a heading written in Spanish, English and Portuguese… This odd amalgam of math, geography and language masquerading as an algebra textbook goes on to intersperse each chapter with helpful comments and photos of children named Taktuk, Esteban and Minh. Although I don’t know what happened to Dick and Jane, I do understand now why there are four multicultural reviewers for this book. However, I still don’t quite grasp the necessity for political correctness in an algebra textbook.

Nor do I understand the inclusion of the United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights in three languages… …By the time we get around to defining an algebraic expression we are on page 107… From there we hurry on to lectures on endangered species, a discussion of air pollution, facts about the Dogon people of West Africa, chili recipes and a discussion of varieties of hot peppers… I was thoroughly dazed and unsure whether I was looking at a science book, a language book, a sociology book or a geography book. This textbook tries to be all things to all students in all subjects and the result is a mush of multiculturalism, environmental and political correctness…it is unfocused nonsense… Mathematics is about rules, memorized procedures and methodical thinking. We do memorize the multiplication tables, don’t we?''

Elsewhere it says:

``The practical result of these universal reforms is that they “dumb down” the curriculum. Under these reforms, students know they aren’t being educated. One angry ninth-grade girl, with tears streaming down her face, told how she had been asked to determine the circumference of a circle. She said each student received a piece of string, along with instructions to place the string around a circle and hold it up to a ruler. The teacher then required them to write about the process! “I did that in elementary school. How dare they treat us like first graders! I’m so mad! I know there’s a way to use math to figure the circumference of a circle but they won’t teach me!”…..

Most parents, many educators (considered maverick because they adhere to the principle that schools should actually educate children), and a handful of school board members hold an alternative view: that schools perform poorly because they no longer focus on academic achievement. Instead they pursue faddish educational practices such as inventive spelling, whole language, constructivist math, cooperative learning, self-esteem programs, and death education.  Indeed, it is a common view among educators that public schools exist, not so much to teach academics, but to shape our children emotionally and psychologically in the proper politically correct image. Moreover, public schools are inundated with social studies curricula containing false and misleading concepts, and sex education programs whose main purpose apparently is to challenge societal norms. Academics take a back seat to social engineering....

Thomas Sowell wrote about a lot of these things, and the book ``From Crayons to Condoms'' provides complementary evidence from parent and student interviews. And watch out, most educators will never accept that it is the time wasted on social engineering that actually leads to low performance. I once cited a research article by Harold Stevenson which showed that while Asian schools spent 94% of class time on academic activities, American schools spent only 64% of class time on academics. And that article by Stevenson was published a long time ago. Who knows how much time is wasted now?

I won’t even go into the very, very inappropriate material students are exposed to in the name of English classes and school reading. It's disgusting and shocking. May my kids never pass through such places.

[nee1]

Mr Robert, what you once said on this thread, I read in that book. Here is the excerpt:

Often when parents object to something going on at a school, they hear, “You are the only parent to complain.” The idea, of course, is to intimidate parents into staying quiet. The parents mentioned above didn’t allow the school to bully them into complaisance; they banded together, and they gathered strength from each other. That is a good strategy for others to follow. While it may sound old-fashioned, there is truth in the saying, “There is strength in numbers.” (One method used to silence complaining parents is to call them “book-burners.” Again, don’t let anyone intimidate you or prevent you from doing what is right for your child just because they may call you names.)

Classroom assignments sometimes have nothing to do with academics but instead delve into the private lives of children and their families. For instance, one curriculum for elementary students asks the children to sit in a “talking ring” and pass the “wise person’s hat.” When the hat comes to each child, he or she is expected to share his or her problems while the other students are told they may have to “go into the realms of imaginations to find answers.” Not only does this violate the privacy of the student, but one can only wonder how elementary students can solve each other’s so-called personal problems. Some experts say this type of exercise can actually create a psychologically stressful condition for the child, because it could cause undue pressure to think up a problem even if there is no problem at home. This particular curriculum also tells the children to go home and get “Mom and Dad” to tell them their problems so that the children can “share them with the class the next day.” As the following stories will show, vigilance on the part of parents has never been so important….

[Korrale4kq]

Very interesting. And those things that you pointed out are my biggest qualms with public education.
I have read 4th grade text books like those. There is also this "figure it out for yourself" round about way of teaching math which is not helping students that are unable to figure it out. Many of these kids needs a solid foundation before they can apply thinking to problems. 

It i like being told to knit a sweater without a pattern.... Sure one could figure it out, but they would need to know how to knit first.

I also think too much time is spent "esteem building." Where the children sit in circles and say something nice about the the person next to them. We called these warm fuzzies when I was in school. I had a class in grade 7 that did this. We call it a warm fuzzy car wash. We walk past people and they give us a compliment. I HATED it. After 20 kids told me that they liked my blue eyes, it didn't do a thing to build my esteem. It isolated me from my peers, because I knew they really didn't know a thing about me. And even at 12 I knew forced compliments weren't genuine.
I tutor a girl who is unable to do her work. She doesn't write down her homework because she wants to have her turn at getting a compliment that day in the compliment game they play.
Wasted time to me....

[nee1]

Korrale, yes.  According to the book, ``students are promoted and given ``A's'' to help their self esteem without being taught the essentials of American history, government, and arithmetic''. And the book makes an excellent point about the self-esteem syndrome. It says:

THE LATEST TREND in education is to praise students. Unfortunately, that praise is sometimes not warranted and students earn good grades for sub-par performance. Sadly, students aren’t fooled when they receive false praise for poor performance or sloppy work. Eventually, they understand that the praise is empty, and they view commendation with disdain. Today’s testing presents two problems. One is the feel-good idea of promoting “self-esteem,” while the other is lawmakers who believe they can legislate quality education and use testing as the vehicle to prove their success. Neither idea works. Self-esteem is not awarded; it is earned by accomplishment.

For instance, several years ago a high school teacher said that one of her students turned in an excellent report. When the teacher handed the assignment back to the girl, the teacher said she commended the student on her work and the girl just looked at her and said, “Yeah, right. That’s what they always say.” The teacher was surprised by the response and asked the girl to explain what she meant. The student replied that teachers always say everything is really good, but they say it to everyone, all the time. The girl said, “Do they think we’re dumb? We know they just say it to make us feel good. It doesn’t mean anything.”1 Empty praise is worthless. The only people misled by the deception are not the students, but parents and legislators. To parents, a good grade means a job well done. After all, good grades were earned when they went to school....

And here is one parent's testimonial about the self-esteem syndrome:

I’m angry, very angry. Our son is six years old and in second grade. Last year I fumed because he brought home written work with every word misspelled and then told me it was “creative spelling.” According to “creative spelling,” children must learn two, three, or even four different ways to spell before learning the correct way. These formative years should be spent learning how to spell words correctly the first time! My wife and I arranged to meet with the teacher to discuss what we consider ineffectual teaching. Our son’s teacher told us that she never corrects a student’s spelling errors in front of the other children but does tell them when they do good work. I pointed out that SAT scores prove that this teaching method has failed. She said, “SAT scores are global scores that have nothing to do with your child.” She then pulled out a small stack of current teaching methodologies and began reciting them to us.

At this point, I asked that we discuss our immediate concerns and not get distracted by lectures. She said she was answering me and that we had a total of thirty minutes. We felt she was wasting what little time she had allotted us by avoiding a discussion of our son’s spelling. We told her that we wanted our son to learn how to spell, and we wanted him corrected in class. She stated she would not do that because it would damage his self-esteem. I tried explaining that when we were children, our teachers didn’t harm our self-esteem by teaching us how to spell, read, and write. I reminded her that our SAT scores were “over the moon” compared with today’s scores. I also reminded her that the current SAT has been referred to as “SAT Light” due to its increased time limit, allowed use of calculators, and the elimination of difficult sections. She was obviously uncomfortable; she said she was aware of the changes and thereafter quickly changed the subject whenever the SAT was mentioned.

The teacher repeatedly stressed how important it is to “create self-esteem.” (In truth, if teachers would revert to standard teaching methods that work, self-esteem would come naturally.) Why can’t teachers admit that self-esteem is not created by people telling children, “You’re great!” and then, when those children graduate from high school—or even college—they suddenly realize how they’ve been cheated? Why can’t teachers acknowledge that an important part of learning is the self-confidence that comes from the struggle to understand new concepts and gain new knowledge? This struggle includes both sides of reality: 1) approval when one does well; 2) disapproval (and correction) when one does poorly.

When I asked the teacher what was wrong with reverting to a “tried and true” method, she said those methods were no good. I responded by saying that if she wasn’t willing to use methods that actually taught children how to read, spell, and write, we would be forced to remove our child from public school. Unflinching (was I surprised?), she said that was my prerogative. Mine is a common story, but until it affected my child, the rumors, the talk show conversations, even the written articles were always about “someone else’s” child. I strongly suggest that every parent take the time to meet with his or her child’s teacher—whether it’s about spelling or math, etc., and tell that teacher: “I want Johnny to learn to read the first time (or learn to calculate real math).” The teacher’s response is likely to both shock and bewilder the parent.

[nee1]

Here is other parent's testimonial of how self-esteem and ``feelings'' trumped actual learning of math in his child's classroom:

When my oldest son was in third grade, the teacher tried to convince us that “all the research showed” that a literature-based curriculum was the best thing for our children. Four years later, I went back to that teacher and asked her if she still believed in the literature-based curriculum, also known as integrated thematic teaching, and more commonly referred to as whole language. She admitted that after three years, students—now in fifth and sixth grade—were doing miserably. She said the program was a failure and that they wouldn’t use it again. Yet in the same district, another school was implementing the same experimental program.

When my son was in seventh grade, he told me about a “stupid” exercise they had done in math class. He explained that they were divided into groups and told to write in their “own words” how they “felt” about the problem that had just been discussed. My son wrote that he thought it was a “stupid waste of time.” Since his “own words” were not good enough, the teacher twice tore up and threw away his paper. Finally he gave up and copied, with the rest of his group, what the teacher had written on the board. Because this seemed like an unusual exercise for a math class, I contacted the principal to find out what they were doing. He informed me that he gave his teachers considerable freedom in their classrooms. He then showed me the math framework from which this exercise was taken. Once I started reading and asking questions, I learned that the district had not approved this form of math. Not only was my son’s teacher using a math curriculum without authorization or proven research, but the principal was condoning it and even approving it by virtue of his “hands off” policy. It was nothing less than an experiment and a phenomenal waste of class time.

When my youngest son was in sixth grade, I heard that all the students would be grouped together in math. In a “back-to-school night” for parents, I questioned his teacher. She said, “Yes, we are grouping students because by the time they get to junior high, there’s just too wide a gap in levels of performance. Some perform at an eighth-grade level while others are struggling at the fourth-grade level.” I couldn’t believe my ears! She wanted to slow all students down to the level of the slowest learner. I immediately called the principal and stated strongly that math should be taught and is learned better in traditional grade/ability-level groups. Since my son was advanced in math, I certainly expected him to learn at his level of ability. The following week, all the students took math tests to determine their level. I figured all was well. Since parents weren’t invited into the classroom anymore, I didn’t notice how my son’s love of math was dying. When his first report card arrived, we weren’t thrilled to find that he was just getting by in math. He didn’t even like math any longer.

 I decided to make a surprise visit to my son’s class. The day after we received his report card, I went to school and practically had to force my way into his classroom. Immediately I noticed that, despite the fact that the students had taken proficiency entrance exams, they were all together in one classroom. There was no division according to ability. This directly contradicted the stated purpose for the entrance exams. In addition, the teacher was incompetently teaching sixth graders that wrong math answers were okay. I guess he didn’t want to undermine their self-esteem. I actually witnessed him encouraging students to applaud a girl who gave a wrong answer. It was unbelievable! No wonder my son was beginning to hate math! Earlier, this teacher had told my son to stop tutoring another boy in how to arrive at a correct answer. When the teacher used the calculator, he too gave the wrong answer, and yet he had the gall to tell my son that he was wrong! I had had enough. That was the end of my child’s being subjected to that incompetent teacher. We pulled him out of that class but the teacher is still there....

[Korrale4kq]

My son is 3. And he hates getting things wrong. He gloats when my husband or I are wrong, about anything.  But I want him to be wrong.... A lot. I want him to learn that being wrong is okay. He needs to learn from being wrong.

I do correct him as he reads. I do tell him simply that he is wrong when he answers a math question incorrectly. I then have him try again (if I know he knows it) or I will take the moment to help him by reteaching the concept.

[MummyRoo]

I completely agree - praise is getting out of hand in schools now. I was lucky - the praise/experimental maths and spelling was only starting when I was in school and seemed to follow along in the year groups below me without affecting me too much, though I still remember when I took my 12+ (grammar school entrance exam) the teachers told us there 'is no pass or fail' but only those who got over a particular score could go to the grammar school - how is that not a pass-fail situation? Now it is at the point that the newspapers are writing about these 'amazingly talented' young people who PASS GCSEs (tests for 16 year olds) at 6/7/8 and get F or G grades. Since when was an F or G a pass? Since when did they introduce grades below F? In my day, worse than an F was simply 'ungradeable'. I mean, sure, taking an exam 8-10 years early is impressive, but if I was ever to put my son in for an exam early, I would at least wait until he is able to pass it properly. Getting an A grade at 10 -six years early- is way more impressive than a G at 8 in my opinion. 

Should I even mention that when we took our GCSEs and ran out of past exam papers (we would generally finish the 2 year syllabus 4-5 months early to have plenty of practice for the exams) the school gave out the old O level papers - the exams my Mum's generation took - and we could not do them. They were so much harder we couldn't believe it. And the exams have been getting easier and the pass grades lowered every year since. I think it is possible to get an A with 60% in some exams! And even in ENGLISH exams there is only a small number of the questions where they even bother to deduct marks for bad spelling and grammar - you can understand the odd longer word or tricky spelling being overlooked, but kids are getting passing grades with textspeak!     

And no 9 year old should be of the opinion that you don't need to know how to add long numbers because "that's what calculators are for" 

OK, rant over 

[GeniusExperiment]

what a great thread, i must admit I only managed to read the first 5 and last 5 pages so hopefully my questions are not redundant ;-). I will read the rest soon.

Robert, thanks so much for sharing your experience, this is great. It's really interesting you mentioned "forget about the concept, just say that 5 and 2 is 7", I started this recently with my 2.5 year old just for fun (just saying things like "one and one is two" or "five and five is ten!") and this is suddenly when she started to get it. Just a few days after I started  asked her how many dolls were there (there were three) and she said "Three. Two, and then one more". Long-term, I've always had to understand everything though, I could never do the faith part at least in high mathematics (which is why I got stuck at some point, probably!) but I think you're right that if you want to start early it's the only way to go, otherwise you can't advance.

My questions:
1) since you like the fact based approach, have you heard of or have you used the Jakow Trachtenberg system of speed math? I am ambivalent about it because it provides a short cut in the calculations, I think I want my kids to know the old school way before using these tricks, but I think it's helpful later to gain speed. What do you think?

2) also, any views on Saxon Math vs Singapore Math? So many homeschoolers/afterschoolers seem to use Saxon Math. From reading lots of reviews about it, I understand Saxon Math is more about thorough grounding in the basics and operations, and Singapore Math more about problem solving and concepts. I am undecided now. I like problem solving and critical thinking but also think you can't do that without very thorough basics. Any thoughts on this appreciated! And sorry if you have covered those things already!

[Mandabplus3]

It is interesting that Saxon and Singapore have that reputation. In practice Saxon has lots of word problems, many more than most school curriculums contain. There are multiple problems to solve in each lesson.
We have been using Saxon here for the past 8 months or so and I am quite pleased with the results my kids are achieving. We want to do more but unfortunately they attend school and actually have to do their school homework. Which is of course easier...

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