when to push your child?

[Kimba15]

I know in the Early Learning arena that we are not menat to test our child or really even push them into academics and let them come to it when they want to, but I had my daughter's first parent teacher interview the other night and i found out that my daughter fantastic ability at saying no is working very well at school.

I have been trying to get a reading level established at school for my dd but she refuses to read to the teacher so her reading level can't be established.S says she reads with Mummy at home.  The teacher has been trying to encourage her over to some of the mathematical equipment and language equipment but S keeps saying no. While I am aware that she is in a Montessori environment and what she picks to play with is her choice I am also a little annoyed that I am paying $1350 per term (10 weeks of school) 4 terms a year and I can't see any real learning and while S loves school I wish she was pushed more by the teacher to do more of those things. she is really interested in practical life and maybe that is where she needs to be right now but at the same time I feel like I am paying for a very expensive social event.

So I feel now that I have to step up even more to keep her on the early learning track except now when I try to do it with her I get I don't want to Mummy, Mummy Im tired from school, Mummy I just want to play. (Same excuses she gives at school when trying to be introduced to anything new) I don't want this to develop into a habit which she uses to get out of trying anything new or gives up when something she deems is to hard. How do I encourarge her without pushing her to the point where she hates learning??????

I have been really praising the effort she puts in on anything new and using puppets to make it all fun and light! But is there anything else I can be doing?? Sorrhy if this seems like I am all over the place Im just trying to gather my thoughts???

[Mandabplus3]

When my son was stuffing around instead of actually doing his softmozart practice. I had a little chat to him about mummy's expectations and why I have those. We talked about how if he did his practice sensibly then one day he would be able to play beatiful piano and people might even give him money to listen to him play ( he likes money ) I then told him I expected him to do it sensibly at least 2 times and then we would put a sticker on his chart and play Lego. I was astonished at the results from this chat. Sometimes I think just clearly telling them our expectations can do wonders! Now I do it all the time, I tell the kids before we leave the car how I expect them to behave in the shop or at someone's house. Each time I do it I see improvements.
You could try telling her you expect her to try one new activity at school before she does her play activity and you want her to pay attention so she can tell you all about it when she gets home. Make sure you give full attention to her description and lots of enthusiasm so she wants to repeat the proceedure again.
 As her mum you will know if she is playing you, or pulling the wool over your eyes, or just being plain lazy,  this is when you push.

[DadDude]

This is one of the unintended consequences of Doman's method, I've concluded. If you give a child the ability to say "no" to educational activities from the first months of childhood, by the time they're four or five they'll feel absolutely entitled to refuse educational activities. And why not? That's precisely how they've been trained! That is the conclusion I came to with H. When I figured that out I knew that unless we were going to be radical unschoolers, at some point I would have to punish him (time outs) for not getting to work.

It started getting bad when he was four. He was able to learn a lot, even that year, but only because I was willing constantly to shift activities. We did not learn piano, because he didn't want to practice. I still didn't want to force him, even then. When his fifth birthday hit, however, I started reluctantly to require a few things. At first we did math and handwriting, I think switching off mornings. After several months he was trained to expect to do math and writing every morning. Piano, too. Eventually we got into the more traditional sort of homeschooling (not unschooling!) relationship in which we have some excellent habits, but the things he doesn't just love naturally, he resists from time to time, and occasionally that results in time in the corner.

I don't know what the best age is for starting to require some sort of study of children. I would have been very uncomfortable to require anything before the age of four. Maybe you wouldn't go far wrong by continuing with an unschooling approach until a child is six, although I wonder whether it would be even harder to rein in a willful child then.

Just remember that breaks are important, and if you have to force much, well, you're probably doing something wrong...

[waterdreamer]

I often wondered about this myself. I can't say I agree with this part of Doman's method. I believe in setting expectations. For example Soft Mozart. Wesley much prefers to just mess around on the keyboard and create his own music. But he is required to practice at least 2 or 3 songs and play one other game, then he has free range of the keyboard. While I will put things away for a short period if I find they are stressful too him, I still expect him to do what I ask of him. I had trouble finding the balance because while I expect him to try hard and not make silly mistakes I do not expect him to be perfect either. We went through a stage where he would freak out if he got 95% of his math problems right. In my mind that's great, but in his mind it wasn't good enough.
I hope you can figure out a solution, I totally understand why you would be frustrated paying so much for school and she does not want to do what the teachers ask. Have you ever talked to her about possibly removing her from the school if she will not try new things, and that school is for learning not just for playing. I did this with Wesley when it came to violin. He was just being a goof every lesson and even though he could do all the stuff at home, we could not progress because he would not demonstrate it to his teacher. So I told him, "Mommy is paying very good money for you to have violin lessons. If your not going to appreciate these lessons and work hard, Mommy is going to pull you out because she has many other things our family can use this money for." Well I'm telling you, when he heard that he started behaving. I mean he was not perfect, but we started progressing again.
Good Luck!!

[MartyD]

This is a great question, and I too was concerned about the IAHP's approach to early learning, but on the other side of the push issue. As an new preschool teacher, I loved what I learned at the Better Baby Institute.  It made me a better preschool "teacher" while giving up much of what I thought about early learning and had been learning about teaching. After many years of observation, my conclusion: Pushing, as a long term strategy, doesn't work. It will backfire and cause resentment, but more importantly, it can cause our child to resist our support when we become seen as "the pusher."  But we parents don't know what does work. That is, we don't know what to replace pushing with that works, and neither did I.  I was doing it in my classroom, but didn't know how to pass it on to other teachers and parents. I do now.  My suggestion is always 1) see what your child's reaction is when you decide to push and don't back down, 2) notice if you are under any stress when you feel the need to push, and 3) what messages are you giving your child when you are pushing?  Do you not trust the learning process?  Do you want your child to do what he or she should do, from your point of view and upbringing?  Are you concerned he or she isn't smart enough, or needs to be on some learning track, like we were in school?  See what you see, and make your choice. There is no right or wrong way. What we do as parents either enhances our child's natural love of learning or inhibits it, and you can tell which if you look to see.

Pushing our child is motivated on one level by our love and concern, no question - and wanting our child to be successful.  On the other hand, pushing is about what we want or think we need, not what is necessarily best for our child at the moment.

[Krista G]

I have often thought of posting on this topic.  I realize that children do need to be pushed, some more than others.  I have reflected over my own life and the times my parents pushed me athletically, musically, and in business.  Looking back, I wish they would have pushed me even more.  The nature of people is to seek pleasure and avoid pain or work, but it is through pain and work that we grow and are strengthened.  It is a difficult decision to make as a parent.  I think as homeschoolers, we deal with this more than others because our children are master manipulators and they are very good at trying to get out of doing things they don't want to do.  There is a breaking point, and we certainly don't want to push our children that hard, but in order to raise good children and quality citizens, we have to teach our children responsibility.  This is done through requiring them to do chores and contribute in the family unit.  Many times this is unpleasant, but the benefits far outweigh the unpleasantness. 

As a child my mom required very little of me and my siblings as far as household chores.  She ran around doing everything while we watched TV or played.  It was ridiculous, now that I look back.  The 6 of us could have certainly helped her had she been determined to deal with our complaining until we were trained to help.  I vowed not to do the same to my children.  I found it a great setback in my life not knowing how to efficiently run a household as an adult because I was not raised with this in mind.  I thank God that my dad always had us working and involved in his business or we would have been lost causes.

Daddude has mentioned requiring H. to read an hour a day.  Some people might consider that pushy, but if H. knows that this is required, he will soon get over complaining and do what is required of him.  I am certain he will be thankful his dad pushed him to read when he is older.  We don't always like what is good for us, but as parents we have to look at the big picture and what we are trying to accomplish by our actions.

Life is not always fun.  In school children are given assignments that they do not enjoy.  They do not get out of them because of that.  The teacher does not care if they like it or not, it is her job to give an assignment and expect the work to be done.  While I don't love the school system, we will face many similar situations in life.  The problem is when we try to make everything pleasant and nice for our children and never let them experience disappointment or struggle.  We learn far more from pain than pleasure.  Case in point.  If you love cookies and say you cannot resist them would you still eat a cookie if you knew it was laced with arsenic?  No, the thought of the pain is greater than the pleasure.  So pain is a great teacher.

[Tanikit]

This is a hard one for a number of reasons and a few questions need to be asked and answered before deciding to "push" a child - and here "push" seems to mean to require a certain action (in this case intellectual).
Here are the questions I would ask:

1. What is it that I want/expect?
2. Why do I think this is something worth expecting - what will it do for my child and for me?
3. Is this a fair expectation for my child at this age/stage of development (can he/she actually do this or reach this level?)
4. Is there another way to approach this that might result in less resistance and accomplish the same goal?

Could you perhaps video your child reading different levels and show the teacher (include yourself in these videos so the teacher can see what help (if any) you are giving her)?
How much play time does she get and is it possible to include early learning in the type of play she is doing?
Does she know how to tell time - could you perhaps tell her that if she does x amount of minutes of whatever activity you choose that she can then play (or you will play with her if that is what she wants)

I am actually not sure that it is possible to create a person who hates all learning - anyone anywhere will learn something when motivated to do so - often by money as an adult, by rewards or being able to do something else in a child. However the love of formal education can be killed or the love of learning in a particular manner. If your child is resisting a particular learning manner then try something else - if your child doesn't like sitting down (and very few do at a young age) then try the teaching while they move around or do something else or have activities that subtely introduce the concept you want to teach.

I do expect my daughter to read to me at night - it is part of our routine and she knows it. I do read with her for now and I do read to her afterwards. Some nights we have sighs about it but so far she still does do it. I am also expecting her to write a bit now but I am more lenient and less pushy about this because I am unsure myself how much I can expect of a 4.5 year old as far as this goes and I would rather err by making her do too little - so I try a few things and see what works.

Never ever push or expect the same of your child when they are tired, hungry, too hot or cold or have some other need that needs attending to first (like needing the bathroom or being thirsty etc) - no adult is able to meet expectations as well under these circumstances and we have had practice - it is unfair to expect a child to perform if their physical and emotional needs have not been met to a reasonable extent.

Also if you are not sure whether something is working take a break so that both you and the child can see the bigger picture. It will do no harm to stop an early learning experience for a week or two while you reevaluate and often when you come back the child seems to know more and be less resistant and you can start new routines more easily.

[Oana86]

I've had a slightly different experience regarding 'pushing'...hence I'm slightly reluctant to doing it (even though I could not promise I won't do it once my daughter grows a bit). As a single child my mom always had very very very high expectations of me....and in an annoying way these expectations transmitted to my relatives (for whatever reason they expected great things from my side as well)....by all means, this was not a bad thing at all (back then, or now)....but I was constantly under pressure...and I used to hate the times when I'd get home and tell my mom I scored a B+ for instance, instead of an A....I could just see dissapointment on her face.

I am absolutely sure that her intentions were very good...but the pushing part was not nice at all.....and she had her own way of doing it...the silent way (if you know what I mean). Precisely because of this I ended up hating some things/subjects that counted a lot for her as she saw them important...and genuinely refused to take particular subjects at school just so she wouldn't have a reason to push me further (not sure if this makes sense....but that's how I was thinking as a teenager).

I'm not really sure how I'll go regarding this issue with my daughter and the kids I'll have....but I would really like to take a different approach to learning my children in general and to pushing them achieve something that I think it's good for them.

[linzy]

I believe in expectations, but not necessarily "pushing" until probably 4 or 5.

Even for my 2 year old we have a routine as far as learning. My expectation is for a "good attitude" not just in school but in all things. If we are doing an activity and he is tired or bored we might scrap it until later, if we are doing an activity/eating at the table/cleaning up toys/playing with his brother and he is having a poor attitude he goes into the corner until he can have a good attitiude.

For my 5 year old he must obey my expectations. If he knows there is no room for negotiation and it is the same everyday then he doesn't make fuss becaust he knows what to expect. In the beginning (mainly this year) he would say he just wanted to play and I would point out all his friends in school were working all day long and also don't have the option to just play. In his case if he focuses he is done in 2 hours and then has some free reading later in the day. As he has matured he understands that he is definitely coming out ahead.

The truth is that people don't like to do what is hard and the only way to make it less hard is with practice. My son used to go to Montessori and had the same problem, he would spend all work period "scooping ice cream", playing with the telephone, etc...easy things that he knew how to do. That is the problem with giving children free choice, most will do what is fun and easy.

[Maquenzie]

This is an excellent discussion and one I've thought a lot about myself.

I, too, am in the position of wishing I had been pushed more as a child.  I also believe there a peaceful (not always pleasant) ways of doing it.  I also believe a LOT will depend on the individual child's temperament, family environment, etc.

I would say I *don't* push my 2 year old (in academics).  For now, if she resists a certain activity, I don't offer it for awhile.  She is pushed more in areas of self-care and cleaning up after herself than I think is typical for her age.  How it looks:  26 month old says, "go pee pee" and walks to the bathroom.  She starts pulling down her parents and doesn't get it immediately and says, "mommy do it".  I reply, "I think you can do it, let's keep trying".  All of her clothing is easy-on, easy-off; some may be tighter than others. Let's say she's tired or otherwise cranky, but not overly so and fusses, maybe even yells, "mommy do it".  I might get up and do a nearby chore and say, "oh, I think you can do it...let me finish folding these towels and I'll come back and see if you got it".  15 seconds later, I hear a happy, "I did it!".  Similarly, she is expected to put her things away before getting something new, cleaning up her own spills, etc.  Currently, these are the only areas where she is "pushed".

With my 5 year old, he does do academic things he hasn't chosen or doesn't want to do.  Just not tons.  He is also not homeschooled.  With him, I mostly rely on routines (after awhile, he just stops complaining Two examples: he reads a book aloud during desert every night and reading lesson during snack time after school), using food time (hey, he's already at the table ), or doing it right before something fun (like an outing).  Other times, I've started it myself and enjoyed myself until he wants to join in. If he takes forever, say during a reading lesson, I usually take away whatever is distracting him.  And, I let him stay up late if he would like to work on spelling, math, and/or handwriting (he usually takes that offer ).



Also, to the original poster, I HIGHLY reccommend observing in your child's classroom. 

[Frukc]

Steiner (Waldorf pedagogy) says that pushing to learn is allowed after the changing of first teeth. So, 5 - 7 years.

While reading your discussion I remembered (and translated)  a post from our local parenting forum.

"I am the only daughter of my mother. But in reality she does not have children.  Because my childhood disappeared in psychological and physical terror, to press me to visit music school (talent). I finished. I do not play, do not sing, and do not meet my mother if not particularly necessary."

I also have a friend who had brilliant early education (she was reading at two, etc.). Now she does not like to meet her mother because mother continues to have opinion on how she should live. My friend is now preparing to change her profession, from mothers influenced to what she likes - practical work with horses.

So I know the risks. We must know when to stop.

[Krista G]

Those are definitely excessive cases, and we certainly want to avoid that.

[Maquenzie]

Those are definitely excessive cases, and we certainly want to avoid that.

Yes, I agree. 

It's also important to have a strong relationship with your children otherwise.

And I have no goals for my children's adulthood.  That is for them to discover and build.

[Krista G]

Definitely important to have strong relationships.  I am so blessed because my kids just love me and want to be with me all the time.  Their future is definitely theirs.  We can help them discover their gifts, but they ultimately have to do what brings them happiness.

I recently went to my accountant's office and I let my 14 year old come with me.  My accountant made a comment that it must be torture to have to come with me to see him, to which my daughter replied, "Oh no, I am  the one she chose.  I was happy to come.  I love to spend time with her no matter where we go."

I jokingly told him that all 6 of my kids would have been thrilled to come with me, but we spared him that day.

[Kimba15]

Yes my dd is a little hard to read is therefre almost impossible to decide if to continue with EL. I have taken a break with my dd one minute she wants to I get it out and then as soon as the 'work' is out the flopping on the floor starts and tantis start but if I walk away this results in her saying 'come back I want to do it.' I then have to push her to complete it and we end up arguing all the way to the end.

So I have decided to stop because not only am I being played by her the arguments and the pushing are not worth the pain and the destruction to our relationship. I would like her to try more things but at the moment I am willing to let this go. Kids change soo much and so quickly that when the 'power' is taken ut of soemthing they want to do it.

Sometimes I think it is more the case of saying no than it is not wanting to do something. At this point in time she is only 3.5 and I don't want her to hate learning at the sametime I don't want this to develop into a habit where by just saying 'no' gets her out of any learning. There are some things I expect and that is that she will try something new and she will help out when asked but maybe the academics can wait a little longer if she is going to be difficult.

Next term though I have decided after much talking with my husband that we are going to start setting expectations at swimming. She has been in the same class for a year now and has made no real progress. She continues to muck around and I have noticed that she is taking up alot of the teachers time just on her (Which S loves by the way) and it is nt fair on the other kids. S next trem which starts in 3 weeks we will be setting higher expectations of her and possibly 'punishing her' if she continues to nt listen. Which sounds terrible but with S's personality it seems to be the nly thing that works.

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