Poetic Knowledge Discussion Group

[sonya_post]

This week we are discussing the first chapter of Poetic Knowledge: The Recovery of Education by James Taylor.

I came across this whole idea of "Poetic Knowledge" by accident in my 20's, but that wasn't what I called it. There were several books, two of them were cookbooks, that kind of got me to thinking about what it is we are trying to do and why we are trying to do it. When I finally did pick up Taylor's book, it was only a confirmation of the things I had been internalizing the 7 years prior.

In order to sum up what Taylor introduces in the book is what many have called the "Pursuit of the Good, the True and the Beautiful."  One of the things I discovered from reading "A History of Education in Antiquity" http://www.amazon.com/History-Education-Antiquity-Wisconsin-Classics/dp/0299088146 was that that for much of the last 3000 years the purpose of education was not so that a person could get a good job, but rather to form a particular kind of person. I do not agree that the purpose of education is to pass along information. I also believe that I am attempt to form the a certain kind of person. A phrase I picked up long ago and that has stuck with me is that I am raising a child with a "fat soul."

In the past 20 years or so I have been thinking about this phrase our culture is apt to throw around without grasping the implications of what it means. That phrase is: "It works."  My thought has been to ask "Works for what?" To what end is this thing working. Ritalin works. "Works for what?" This math program works. "Works for what?" Antibiotics work. "Work for what?"  For many of us, we don't have a clearly defined end goal so we don't know to even ask the right questions. For many years I felt like I was fumbling around in a dark room, trying lead my son. The blind leading the naked...... We are such utilitarians and pragmatists. For most people the bottom line is, "Does it work?" and "How much does it cost?" 

One of my long term goals was not just to get a child who grasped a high standard of knowledge, a child who knows facts and things, but also a lover of those things. I don't want a child who can just add and subtract, I want a child who loves and adores numbers. I don't want just a child who can decode words, but a child who loves and adores them and the way they roll off the tongue. That requires a certain kind of knowing and a certain kind of education. I was never very successful the first time around in the math department. I am not so unfortunate that he is "bored" by math. However, our math experience still causes me to wince. I am sold on this idea of Poetic Knowledge, though I don't know that it is the "term" we must use describe this way of knowing the world. But it is a helpful term none-the-less.

The following is a long quote from my favorite rebel clergyman and theologian, Robert Capon. I recommend to you all of his books, but my favorite are: "The Supper of the Lamb", "An Offering of Uncles", and his books on the parables. The quote comes from his cookbook, "The Supper of the Lamb":

I am an amateur. If that strikes you as disappointing, consider how much in error you are, and how the error is entirely of your own deciding. At its root lies an objection to cookbooks written by non-professionals (an objection, by the way, which I consider perfectly valid, and congratulate you upon). It does not, however, apply here. Amateur and nonprofessional are not synonyms. The world may or may not need another cookbook, but it needs all the lovers -- amateurs -- it can get. It is a gorgeous old place, full of clownish graces and beautiful drolleries, and it has enough textures, tastes and smells to keep us intrigued for more time than we have. Unfortunately, however, our response to its loveliness is not always delight: It is, far more often than it should be, boredom. And that is not only odd, it is tragic; for boredom is not neutral - it is the fertilizing principle of unloveliness.....

A man's real work is to look at the things of the world and to love them for what they are. That is, after all, what God does, and man was not made in God's image for nothing. The fruits of his attention can me seen in all the arts, crafts, and sciences. It can cost him time and effort, but it pays handsomely. If an hour can be spent looking at one onion, think how much regarding it took on the part of that old Russian who looked at onions and church spires long enough to come up with St. Basil's Cathedral. Or how much curious and loving attention was expended by the first man who looked hard enough at the insides of trees, the entrails of cats, and the hind ends of horses and the juice of pine trees to realize he could turn them all into the first fiddle. No doubt his wife urged him to get up and do something useful. I am sure that he was a stalwart enough lover of things to pay no attention at all to her nagging; but how wonderful it would have been if he had know what we know now about his dawdling. He could have silenced her with the greatest riposte of all time: Don't bother me, I am creating the possibility of the Bach unaccompanied sonatas.
 
But if a man's attention is repaid so handsomely, his inattention costs him dearly. Every time he diagrams something instead of looking at it, every time he regards not what a thing is, but what it can be made to mean to him - every time he substitutes a conceit for a fact - he gets grease all over the kitchen of the world. Reality slips away from him; and he is left with the oldest monstrosity in the world: an idol. Things must be met for themselves....

One real thing is closer to God than all the diagrams in the world."
 

[Krista G]

Thanks for starting the discussion, Sonya.  I am very attracted to this method of learning/teaching.  I am almost finished with chapter 2 of Poetic Knowledge and I am enjoying the challenge of understanding it.  I read slowly and out loud hoping that it helps.  I like the term fat soul.  That is a great way to describe what we want our children to attain.  I have nothing to add at this time, but I look forward to following this thread.

[Wolfwind]

An interesting start, Sonya.  I'll get the book next week, so I haven't started it yet, but I like your idea of teaching kids who love the things they're learning, not just ones who know about the facts.  I'm eager to see if the Poetic Knowledge book helps me understand ways to achieve that.  I've always thought of my end goal, my "works for what?" answer, as enjoying learning and improving.  That's why I love "Mindset" and the idea that we can learn to enjoy struggles.  I'd like to see if this book adds to my understanding.

I like the Robert Capon quote, and I try to develop the skill of looking at things as they really are and loving them.  Unfortunately, it doesn't come naturally to me.  I see things in diagrams and potentials and relationships and can-bes, not in what they are.  I can't look at one beautiful flower all by itself for long and not go stir-crazy; I have to be thinking about relationships, changes, ideas about the flower in order to concentrate on it.  I'm working on this skill, but I really hope that it's not the only way to be like God.  I believe He has room for people like me, who love the ideas behind things before the things themselves.  I don't agree 100% with personality analysis, but I think it's fun, and this sums up the way I see it: http://www.myersbriggs.org/my-mbti-personality-type/mbti-basics/sensing-or-intuition.asp (I'm an intuitive, according to this).

And you now have me looking for his book on the Parables.  Another book for my list!  Thanks!

[Krista G]

I love the twists and turns this group takes me on.  After reading this post I looked up Robert Capon and discovered that my library has 3 of his books.  The book on Parables looks interesting and I would definitely like to read it.  I just love getting recommendations from all of you here.  Thank you for starting this thread and sharing so much here.

[sonya_post]

Wolfwind,

I think you bring up a valid point in that people are built a certain way. I hesitate to go into this too deeply until you have read the book. My post from Capon has to be understood in the context of the first chapter of Poetic Knowledge. There is a quote in there from "Hard Times" by Dickens, and my post was in that context as both authors are talking about the same type of thing. You may certainly not be inclined to look at a flower for an hour. But if you had in informed guide to take you on a journey that would allow you to get to know that flower, I suspect that you would change your mind.    But to stare at it and not know what you are looking for is not up my alley either.

I think applying what we learn to our lives will come later in this discussion. The issue for now is to get our minds wrapped around what "Poetic Knowledge" is. And one can't use a simple definition to get you there. It really is a way of understanding the world that has been lost on most of us. But not on everyone. Here is a list of books that I think are worthy to throw into this category of "Poetic Knowledge". Not all of these are academic treatments of the subject, but they embody this kind of knowing. This is my short list and not in any particular order:

Robert Capon - nearly everything he writes and geared for me - a person of low academic credentials.
Peter Reinhart - Brother Juniper's Bread Book and Sacramental Magic in a Small Town Cafe: Recipes and stories from Brother Junipers cafe.
Vigen Guroian - Tending the Heart of Virtue: How Classic Stories Awaken a Child Moral Imagination and Inheriting Paradise: Meditations on Gardening
Douglas Wilson - Angles In the Architecture
David Hicks - Norms and Nobility
Joseph Pieper - Leisure the Basis of Culture, Only the Lover Sings: Art and Contemplation and In Tune With The World
Mortimer Adler - Six Great Ideas
Matther Crawford - Shop Class as Soulcraft: An Inquiry into the Value of Work 
Robert Persig - Zen an the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
Fairy Tales, Folk Tales, the Brothers Grimm, and many others - I firmly believe that reading fairy tales for yourself and to your children is nearly the most humanizing thing you can do for them.
George MacDonald - All of his best known works(they are the best known for a reason). No one should live this life and not read "The Princess and Curdie" or "At the Back of the North Wind"
CS Lewis - The Discarded Image and Abolition of Man, and of course his stories. All of his stories.
JRR Tolkien - LOTR series well, anything.

One last one on developing a love for numbers because they really are beautiful and math is not just drill and kill:

The Joy of Mathematics by The Teaching Company lecturer is none other than my favorite mental math giant Arthur Benjamin.

[Krista G]

I have watched some of The Joy of Mathematics with my kids last year.  I need to get that again.  The guy has so much passion for math and its patterns that it is contagious.  Thanks for the list of books.  I will definitely look into them.

[Wolfwind]

Thanks for the reply, Sonya, and I will definitely take another look at the quote after I've read the first chapter.  Context is everything, as usual.     And I do agree that an informed guide makes all the difference.  I just read "What the Robin Knows" by Jon Young, and now I can actually listen to birdsong and find it fascinating, instead of background.  I still can't sit for half an hour and concentrate on it, the way he recommends in the book, but it did change my outlook significantly.  I was probably making too much in my response of whether they focused on a parts-to-whole or a whole-to-parts understanding of an object or idea.  I'm a whole-to-parts person, which is why I'm trying to figure out how I'll apply the ideas before I even read them!  But if the end goal is to know the object/idea well, it doesn't matter which way you look at it; you'll still get there.

Your list is very interesting, and I'll have to hunt down a few more of the books.  Lewis, Tolkien, and fairy tales were just part of growing up for me, and I've never thought too hard about them (other than "I love that story!").  Now I'm eager to read the first chapter and see why you put those in the category of Poetic Knowledge.  That will definitely motivate me if (when?) it turns out to be hard reading.  I do much better with an end/application/idea like that.  Thanks again!  And thanks for leading this whole discussion - out of context remarks and everything.

By the way, on the wall of our children's museum they have the following quote by Albert Einstein: "If you want your child to be intelligent, read him fairy tales.  If you want him to be more intelligent, read him more fairy tales."

[andreasro]

Great discussion! Only regarding to it I have heard of "Poetic Knowledge" as concept. And it is not easy to understand but I am starting to grasp it :P After reading the first pages and first chapter I realize my background is lacking a lot  I wasn't much attracted to philosophies in adolescence. The years went by, I became a mom wanting to homeschool and I am looking at what I want for my children and why I want to teach them and how. I love the discussion because it touches the core of my questions regarding educating them: what do I want to raise? Definitely not machines able to remember and deliver information. It seems what I want more has to do with "poetic knowledge" and "fat soul". Still I can hardly wait to understand what those two really mean and how they apply or can be applied in our lives. Truly, you can't read the book fast, you need time to 'chew' the information. I couldn't get beyond chapter one today.

Both the quote Sonya posted (thank you for sharing, great list of books recommended, BTW, first time I hear about most of them) and the one from Dickens raise good questions and do show a part of the reality we live in. It's pretty said actually.

Andrea

[sonya_post]

Krista - If you do check out some of these books. let me know what you think of them. I am interested. And maybe we can just extend this discussion when done.

Andrea - I said this book can be hard slogging. That is why i put two weeks between chapters. For me, I have to read a few paragraphs and then go think about it and come back later for a few more.And I have read this book before....

@ Wolfwind, I was looking at reading "What Rohin Knows." Is it as good as the reviews?

[Wolfwind]

Sorry for the delay; sickness struck our house.  Yes, "What the Robin Knows" is fabulous.  If learning more about nature and appreciating what you see (and hear) outside is something that interests you, you should definitely pick it up.  Of course, I should admit that I got it from the library and it didn't quite make the cut of "I have to own this!" because I know I can get it from the library whenever I want.  But it was awesome.  It makes so much bird behavior informative and understandable.  Also awesome for the same type of purpose is anything by Tom Brown.

Maybe next week I'll actually get the Poetic Knowledge book.  (I'm checking it out from my alma mater, and a 20 minute drive each way just seems so overwhelming!)

[Krista G]

I just read a few more pages.  This is a tough read for me.  I think I understand what they are saying, but then I am not sure.  I continue to look forward to this discussion and will most likely read the book more than once.

[Mandabplus3]

Krista I hear you!
I have read the first 10 pages 3 times    on the third time I fully understood it. I am not sure if it was my mood, concentration level or osmosis  that helped. Some bits I get strait away and others I have to reread over and over. Since its really just the beginning I actually think the book will make more sense as we get further into it. So far I am still just getting the whole idea of poetic knowledge. It's just so far removed from my general thinking in terms of education. I think its probably close to my way of life but I never see the two as the same or connected so....
I think I might order a hard copy to go crazy with the highlighter while i read. I shall decide at the end of the chapter

[Krista G]

Oh, Mandy, I am finding comfort that I am not alone.  I was reading yesterday, out loud to myself, some passages again and again, when my daughter asked me what I was reading.  I told her if there was not a group here that was discussing the book, I would certainly give it up, but I am enjoying the challenge.   I have not noticed that it ever gets lighter. It is interesting and challenging and nothing I have ever been exposed to, so, I shall just keep reading...

[Mandabplus3]

That's the spirit! 
So I was siting munching on some mouthfuls of sushi ( yes they are always Mouth FULLS aren't they!) when I realised that sushi is the poetic knowledge of food! The natural, simplistic, beauty of the food the presentation and the experience of the sushi train. The raw wooden chopsticks the neatness of the way they line up the plates and seats...
So based on that, what is the scientific food? I was thinking McDonalds? Purely there for a purpose, systematic, no beauty, minimal taste, little health benefit. One goal- to satisfy the need to eat. It's a little off tangent but it helps me think this way. 

[Krista G]

I VERY much like your analogy, Mandy!

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