Prenatal Learning?

[robbyjo]

I might be too late at getting to this topic, but I found prenatal learning to be so absurd and has no scientific support whatsoever. I read BabyPlus' so-called "clinical trial" and "paper" and they smell fishy.

Firstly, I don't see the published paper ("A Controlled Assessment of Fetal Sonic Stimulation Comparing Music and Cardiac Progressions, 1992-2001") in any reputable / peer-reviewed journal or even indexed in Pubmed. I could not search any relevant papers with relevant keywords (e.g., "Prenatal Stimulation" or "Fetal Stimulation"). I am absolutely certain that if the paper were legitimate, even for a pilot project, it would spark at least dozens of follow up studies. In this case, I found none.

Secondly, I see no real clinical trials on this subject in ClinicalTrials.gov. And the sample size in the clinical trial is only 31. Excuse me? Clinical trials are not for pilot projects like this! Even the paper itself isn't constructed as a real paper. What is in the Background is so bogus that even graduate students would easily dismiss it.

BabyPlus ought to retract their claims.

[Paddy Jim Baggot MD]

baby plus is thought by those knowledgeable in the field to be bogus.

to do a clinical trial is very expensive and difficult.  Some think it is a system designed to be so difficult only a drug company could complete a trial.   

if one looks at animal literature, such as marian diamond of ucsf
one would conclude prenatal stimulation of the mother would enhance brain development
even something as subtle as rearranging the furniture

there were some studies published by rene van de carr

for most of the things we think there are no randomized trials

[Skylark]

Have no clue about Baby Plus    Plus I am not much of a supporter of  commercialized products    I am actually would not use it myself

But I would not make a blank statement like that re prenatal learning per se, that is for sure

As a doctor I would make following statements:

1. Child is learning from the very beginning of his or her existence
2. There are many definitions of learning, and one not to confuse using commercial product and learning 


The amount of "learning" that is going on inside mother womb is incredible, child is developing motor skills, neural connections are formed, muscle and neuro responces are learned, practiced and practiced again. The intrauterine development is simply incredible!

As a mother of 3 I would also add:

1. I talked with my children when they were still inside my tummy, we sang to them and took care what music was played in the house.
2. We observed baby's preferences in music for example, when he/she was still in the womb
3. They showed very clear preferences to the voices and routines that they were familiar with before birth, after they were born
4. All my children were extremely alert from the very first moment and responded well to very early learning and stimulation

As someone who attended close to a hundred births (knowing most of those parents through 5-7 months before births, providing prenatal care to them):

I observed difference between infants whose parents were attentive to them, when they were still in the tummy, and those whose parents were treating it as "it is not a baby, it is pregnancy, till it is born" They not necessarily were labeling their bonding and relationship with their unborn child as Prenatal Learning (in fact 99% would feel silly even to name it that way), but they were more attentive to their child in womb, they were taking into consideration their child's preferences ( for softer music for example as opposed to hard rock, or vice versa  ), they were making attempts to bond with their child before birth, they spoke to him or her, etc etc

[MamaOfWill]

I believe in prenatal stimulation because it makes sense to me.  I know that one individual case does not say anything, and I'm not saying Wilhelm was a super baby or anything like that, but I too got comments from hospital staff and our pediatrician saying  how alert and strong he was right from day one.  I'm attaching a photo of him at 2 days old.

Doing exercises focusing on my baby everyday got me into the habit of deliberately educating before he was born, I really really enjoyed it and have the fondest memories of our special time together with him in my tummy.  I suppose one could bond and enjoy pregnancy without deliberately stimulating your unborn baby, but at worst, you really have nothing to loose.

I also thought BabyPlus was a silly gimmick 

[Tamsyn]

This baby has especially been poked and prodded in the womb by his older siblings.  He is going to need that education when he is born, haha.  One of my sisters seemed confused at her birth until my dad started talking.  She turned her head towards him and gave him a big smile.  I believe in prenatal learning, although BabyPlus could hardly become a reality for me even if I did want it.

Someone recommended this book on our facebook group, I would love to get around to reading it.  http://www.amazon.com/dp/0893342513/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_S_ttl?_encoding=UTF8&colid=BRZE4J8RKW83&coliid=IZEUDY0EKG3Y8

[Paddy Jim Baggot MD]

the face book reference is Dr Van De Carr's book, which i mentioned
I was priveleged to meet him a few years ago.


if a newborn baby can learn
how different would that be from a fetus

[Soccer Mommy]

First of all, love to Skylark, Tamsyn and love what you said too Paddy Jim, "if a newborn can learn so can learn how different of that of a fetus.

Second of all, Robby jo we have had this conversation in another topic so I'm not going to say much seeming they  ^^^^ said it all already pretty much. But honestly, pick up a bible or something because all this science stuff...really....just like I have said before SCIENCE CANNOT PROVE EVERYTHING! To prove my point here read this...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang

The wonderful Big bang theory....first of all it's in the name..THEORY, second if you be so kindly to read what it says, it states it was just a HYPOTHESIS THAT OTHER SCIENTIST BUILT THEIR IDEAS FROM....ONE BIG HYPOTHESIS.

I have also said before that just because science cannot prove the bond between mother and child...doesn't mean it isn't there! Also what you said in the last discussion that "THE ONLY WAY YOU BELIEVE THAT HEALTHY STIMULATION TO THE BABY IS BY HEALTHY DIET AND EXERCISE." is what you had said, seriously...really??

You express your opinion about science so openly to a bunch of mothers and fathers on a learning site for infants and babies.....SERIOUSLY.... pick up a Bible!!!

You have children and you're honestly going to sit there and say that "it's science" instead of a wonderful miracle!

I had almost the same exact experience as Skylark did when my daughter was born. she had just been born and was being cleaned by the nurse when my husband called her name and she turned her head and looked straight at him and gave a little smile. Nor every single time we called her name, or her nick name she turned straight to us.

If babies could not learn in the womb, they come out knowing already how to suck on the moms breast, or bottle. They know the familiar voices of their parents, and hey, I listened to gospel and country music everyday of my pregnancy and to this day our daughter loves it!

Again, I love what you said Skylark!

[Paddy Jim Baggot MD]

does anyone know anyone

who took stronger vitamins
or educated the baby inside the womb

and then was found to have a baby with Down syndrome?

[Skylark]

Paddy Jim Baggot MD, I am not sure I understood your question correctly...

Down Syndrome is genetic disorder ( also known as trisomy 21, caused by the presence of all or part of a third copy of chromosome 21). So whether or not child has Down Syndrome would not be contingent on vitamins, stimulation or lifestyle choices during pregnancy.

[Paddy Jim Baggot MD]

Down syndrome either occurs or does not by about 18 Hours after conception.
i don't think it could be caused by taking vitamins later


However some try to educate their babies before birth
or take strong vitamins as think think they might help

they might later find the baby had Down syndrome

those i would be interersted to hear from or communicate with

[MamaOfWill]

There have been lots of studies supporting prenatal learning connected to language and musical memory.  Babies can also be taught to kick when prompted before they are born, and they can be encouraged to push with their arms and legs which helps strengthen them before birth (not that they don't do this naturally.)

Babies are also born with several reflexes, I would not say those were really learned prenatally as they are pre-programmed, although babies do exercise many reflexes prenatally (like sucking their hands in some cases.)

Many people on this forum refer to scientific proof to backup their EL choices!!  And MANY hold religious beliefs other than Christianity!

Yes, the big bang theory is not a fact, so what about it?  Theories are allowed to exist within science without debunking other scientific proofs and facts.  Viewing prenatal learning as a theory(PL), then saying there exists other theories (BB) without scientific proof of validity, does not make (PL) any more or less valid, the theories are completely disjoint.

Children are not science.  Reproduction can be very well defined and explained with science, but reproduction is also not science.

I am hopelessly in love with my little boy and giving birth was the most amazing experience of my life!!  It sure is hard to describe all the feelings, they feel so unique to you, yet every parent experiences it.  I would not argue that the feelings are truly amazing!

[Skylark]

Paddy,

Here is how the genetics work:

Normally in reproduction, the egg cell of the mother and the sperm cell of the father start out with the usual number of 46 chromosomes. The egg and sperm cells both undergo a cell division in which the 46 chromosomes are divided in half, so that both the egg and the sperm cells will have 23 chromosomes each. When a sperm with 23 chromosomes fertilizes an egg with 23 chromosomes, the baby will have a complete set of 46 chromosomes, half from the father and half from the mother.

Sometimes, an error occurs when the 46 chromosomes are being divided in half, and an egg or sperm cell keeps both copies of the #21 chromosome instead of just one copy. If this egg or sperm is fertilized, then the baby will have three copies of the #21 chromosome, which is called trisomy 21, or Down syndrome. The features of Down syndrome are caused by that extra copy of chromosome #21 being in every cell in the body. It is not something that child gets sometime after conception.

Most cases of Down syndrome are caused by trisomy 21. Occasionally, the extra chromosome #21 or a portion of it is attached to another chromosome in the egg or sperm; this may cause "translocation Down syndrome." This is the only form of Down syndrome that may be inherited from a parent. Some parents have a rearrangement called a balanced translocation, in which the #21 chromosome is attached to another chromosome, but it does not affect their own health. Rarely, another form called "mosaic Down syndrome" may occur when an error in cell division happens after fertilization. Which you were probably referring to. These individuals have some cells with an extra chromosome #21 (47 chromosomes total), and other cells have the usual number (46 total).

Regardless of what form of DS child has, there is nothing that can be done with vitamins or exercises or life style to reverse that. But having healthy lifestyle during pregnancy, providing good quality nourishment ( and that does not necessary mean only vitamins, in fact I am a very strong proponent of mother getting needed nutrients from her food first ( with properly adjusted pregnancy diet) and then only then possibly supplementing what can not be received through the diet, which in many many cases means no supplementing at all!) and good prenatal and newborn stimulation, would ensure that baby with DS will have a better physical health.

It is not uncommon for babies with DS have some additional health challenges, so that makes it even more important for the parents to give them every possible positive support, nutrition and stimulation to help their bodies to gain necessary strength.

I know a number of parents with babies with DS. And they provided them early stimulation, they gave them EL opportunities. I know 2 girls in particular, who were reading way before their peers, and enjoyed it! They may have more physical challenges to overcome, but with proper support they will and the parents report incredible progress in those children who were exposed to Early Learning. That is also another reason, why BrillKids supported Early Education for Every Child Foundation provides generous EL scholarships to children with special needs ( DS children included), regardless of financial situation of their parents. We want to give their parents tools to make EL a reality, because they benefit from it incredibly.

[robbyjo]

There have been lots of studies supporting prenatal learning connected to language and musical memory.

@MamaOfWill: Please show me just one real scientific paper (not some pop-sci / blog) that show this connection with some decent sample size (n >= 20, preferably) of real humans. As of the writing of my first post, I could not find anything close to that. I recall that these studies were relatively recent and the samples are very small (n=5-10) and usually on animals (chicks, mice, rats) instead of humans. As such, these papers are published in not so respectable journals.

The problem with prenatal learning is: Although babies are pre-programmed to learn with their senses, their senses are greatly muffled in the womb. If there is a device that can penetrate this muffler and teach the baby something, the baby's organs may be in danger since they may not be ready to receive external stimulation---especially if the stimulation is so strong so as to penetrate the muffling of the womb. With muffled senses, it is hard to learn anything, even for adults.

Now, I understand that prenatal "learning" is still subject of research. There might be some learning going on in the womb after all. We don't know just yet about the magnitude or scope and we need to find out more---way beyond anecdotal evidence. If the field itself is still inchoate, no commercial product should show up and exploit parental affection. That is highly unethical. If reported to the FDA, they're toast.

The wonderful Big bang theory....first of all it's in the name..THEORY...

Big Bang or other evolution may not be directly testable by way of intervention due to the time span (billions of years). However, prenatal learning is something that is well under our reach to test---and so far I am not seeing any meaningful results yet.

Yes, I am well aware of Psalm 139:13-16 that you are referring to. Yes, I agree that babies are miracles. However, it does not mean we ought to stop right there at the Bible. We must find out the physical explanation to advance our understanding about what is behind the scene.

@soccermom7573 and Skylark: Prenatal bonding does not equal to prenatal learning. Prenatal bonding is shown to be beneficial to the baby. For example, this paper. If you read at Baby Plus's claims and the alleged paper, I'm sure your huge red flag will be raised in no time.

[Soccer Mommy]

One question....you mention that "we must find out the physical explanation to advance our understanding about what is behind the scene... Then why were you so swift at first to deny that unborn babies have the ability to learn?

I brought up the big bang theory only because yes it is a theory, yet everyone is so quick to believe it despite how to some people it sounds. Ideas were based off of the theory and so on and so forth, so why is the theory that babies can learn in the womb so hard to accept if something like the big bang theory is so widely accepted for it's also a theory.

And Skylark, I never knew that about how DS was caused, that is wonderful information and thank you for sharing I am glad to have learned more about it.

Mama of Will, I agree about all the feelings, it's like a wonderful rush of overwhelmed feelings. My husband kept trying to ask me how I'm feeling, it's like pain...but SOOOO HAPPY! that's pretty much the only words I could tell him at the time. He was a wreck about how much pain I was in but afterwards, I told him I'd do it again in a second! I can't wait for the twins to be born! he's going to be a wreck again and I in pain but the funny thing is, I can't wait for it! Lol

[robbyjo]

One question....you mention that "we must find out the physical explanation to advance our understanding about what is behind the scene... Then why were you so swift at first to deny that unborn babies have the ability to learn?

I did not deny that unborn babies have the ability to learn. Read my comment carefully. The womb environment simply muffled the external stimuli that it is doubtful that unborn babies could learn from the external stimuli. Plus, there is no scientific evidence either. Therefore, it is highly unethical to commercialize any prenatal learning products---at least not yet.

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