LM or Jones Geniuses -- Please help

[Tanvi_16]

Dear All,

My son is 21 months old. We are using LR from his 14 months.he is learning so much with LR.he can read 20 words now(may be more) as far as tested.

Haven't started really anything for Math yet. He can count 1 to 10 but not yet  able to recognize the numbers. I am planning to start math with him. Confused between JG and LR. please help me which one will be best for him.  I could not able to buy both due to my financial condition.

So please help which one will  be the best.. Please share your experience. thank you,

- Tanvi.

[cokers4life]

I found this review helpful on Jones Geniuses.  Its a bit more informative. http://grhomeschooling.blogspot.com/2010/09/jones-geniuses-matrix-math-review-ages.html
I would email Dr. Jones about if its suitable for your child specifically.  If she has reached the right milestones, she could be ready for it.  I believe Dr.  Jones would give you an honest answer.  He appears to me as a man of good and honest character. 

I think most people who use LM have used it for children that are under three.  I have no experience with LM.  Its just what I have seen by the posts I have read on the forums.  I have heard lots of positive feedback on LM for that age group.  Any older and they usually recommend something else.  HTH

[Kerileanne99]

Tanvi,
My daughter is a few months older than yours and we use various bits from multiple maths programs including LM, JonesGeniuses, Singapore EarlyBird maths, RightStart, and MathTacular, as well as daily activities from a fantastic book you will see mentioned various places in this forum called Marshmallow Math!

Here is the thing: if I had to choose from JonesGeniuses or LM at your child's age, I would without a doubt go for the LM at this time, but would also buy Marshmallow Math (it is very inexpensive and will give you a great level of basics using everyday materials and activities beyond LM that you can squeeze in throughout your day!) I will include the reference below...
We really love JonesGeniuses in our house, but if A didn't have a very good basics understanding it would have been much, much more labor intensive for both of us!  With LM, all the work is laid out for you, so while your child is learning you get to cuddle them and give reinforcement!  Having a regular program, where all you have to do is walk in and turn it on, is very accessible and enjoyable, making you MUCH for likely to stick with it daily...and here is something I have discovered.  While LM is great for subitization and teaching quantity, she has also gotten a much firmer grasp on the concepts of addition, subtraction as well, that we can build on during other activities.
In the meantime, this will give you many months of building a solid foundation, and you can save/consider adding other programs as the need and financial situation arises!

I hope this helps a bit!

http://www.amazon.com/Marshmallow-Math-Early-Young-Children/dp/1553953959/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1331240200&sr=8-1

[linzy]

I would advise JG. The reason being that at that age you are reaching the likely limits for your child being able to substitize the dots which is one of the major benefits of LM.  JG generally recommends starting at age 2 but I know many have started younger, but just moved at a slower pace. Also with JG once you finish the matrix math you are in a good position to move right into the rest of the curriculum. My son (age 5) uses Math 3 and in a recent Math test was found to be at early 4th grade level, and I would not say that in general he is a "mathy" type guy.

[Tanvi_16]

Thanks a lot cokers4life,Kerileanne99 & linzy for your suggestions.

In middle east, We have only Abacus which will also start from the age of 4. My query is if i start JG now and put my son in Abacus at 4 , Will it confuse my child? Because as far as i know both are mental math which help to do calculations faster.

Awaiting your suggestions for the above.

Thanks again..
- Tanvi.

[Chris1]

This could be down to poor reporting but this comes across as an attempt to mislead the viewer.  The viewer is left with the impression that these children can calculate very difficult sums when in reality the sums have been carefully chosen.

This comes across as a math parlour trick to anyone that is aware of the methods used. 


<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/4Z-R3YSL76s&rel=1" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/4Z-R3YSL76s&rel=1</a>

Chris.

[linzy]

Chris, that was one of my concerns with the program also, and I actually spoke with Dr. Jones about it on the phone prior to making the purchase. My plan was, and likely still is, to start my son in the Saxon math series book 5/4 (equivalent to advanced 4th grade/average 5th grade) once he has one hundred percent memorized all his math facts. What I was looking for was a way that utilized early learning methodology to get him there. Although children do learn "tricks" to solve some advanced problems. They are not neglecting the "basic" math knowledge either. In Math 3 they explain:
1. How to teach multiplication using manipulatives and how to solidify the entire multiplication table up to 12x12 through manipulatives, recitation, problem solving, games (matrix tic-tac-toe) and worksheets. They teach "tricks" to help remember the x9's and 12's easily. The also teach the "method of 10's" for multiplying numbers with zeros in each multiplier.
2. Division, long division, division with decimals and fractions, division with fractional remainders, division with the factor tree
3. Successive borrowing and ways to simplify the problems to avoid the need for successive borrowing in subtraction
4. Carrying
5. Proper and improper Fractions and how to add/subtract them.
6. Powers
7. Money and how to add/subtract it
8. Factors, how to factor
9. Prime numbers
10. An easy way to square numbers ending in 5, but they teach you the long ways to do these things too

Really, I think it is a good program as far as knowledge content and that is what you are paying for. I do not see any holes in the program as far as math knowledge, and I know my son will come away with complete mastery of the basic math operations as well as some more advanced ones. I do think the DVD quality could be higher and the lectures more engaging. The lectures at least at this level are really for the parent, but my son insists on watching too and they could have better lighting, sound quality. Also the materials could be more durable, I chose to laminate all the posters with my lamination machine as well as all the flash cards. The only other suggestion I have is to modify the rate you go through the program at your child's pace. It is laid out in 12 weeks, but for us we often take 3 weeks or so to go through a single week in the plans. We do the warm up exercises every day and then usually about 15 minutes worth of the rest of the curriculum to prevent burn out.

We also are currently supplementing with dreambox.com which provides a very visual, game based individualized program which I feel is helping to solidify his understanding so he understands the why as well as the what of the answer.This was not necessary, but I always like to offer him multiple ways to work on the same thing so if a concept doesn't click with one he will get it through another. No one program works for all children, but we've tried rightstart, kumon, flash cards and this is working for us now.

[Dr Miles R Jones]

Chris1,

It is totally appropriate to question whether the kids in the Jones Geniuses demo are a setup or not.  Number one we never claim the children can do any advanced calculation.  They can do the advanced calculations we teach them and we focus on the type of calculations they are most likely to use. 

Having said that, in every demonstration we allow the audience to choose numbers for the type of calculation problem we are demonstrating.   For example, if we are doing cube roots, a volunteer from the audience will be given a calculator and asked to multiply a two digit number to the third power.  They will give the six digit number and the children will (usually without pencil or paper) give the cube root, the number the audience member started with.

 Have they memorized all the cubes of the two digit numbers, about 100 six digit numbers?  I contend that is as fabulous a feat as being able to calculate them mentally but yhey have not memorized the answers and are actually calculating them.  It is fairly simple, obviously, if even a first grader can do it.  The real question is why cannot all children do this?   We are always careful to let people know what the children have memorized (a lot) and what they are calculating.  The fact is, the broader your foundation of known facts the more advanced calculations you can do with ease.

I would wager you cannot find anyone who has purchased our materials who thinks the demonstrations are staged because our materials teach their children how to do the same calculations you saw in the demo.  Any child who has worked with us can participate in a demo whether they have been with us two days or two years.  They are usually not specially selected.  Many are kids who have only a single semester of work with us.  The fact that they often make mistakes in a demo and are corrected by me is another means of knowing it is not faked.

Oftentimes in the demo we will explain or have a student explain exactly how they are able to do such a complicated calculation.  We also like to pose word problems so they can demonstrate the ability to use their mathematics ability in applications which demonstrate higher order thinking. 

In any case, I encourage you to question critically.  It leads to truth.  I have a lot of footage I need to put together and edit to give a more in-depth explanation of how we do what we do.  Your comments may have helped me to make that effort more of a priority.

[Chris1]

Number one we never claim the children can do any advanced calculation.  

Have they memorized all the cubes of the two digit numbers, about 100 six digit numbers....  but yhey have not memorized the answers and are actually calculating them. 

I would wager you cannot find anyone who has purchased our materials who thinks the demonstrations are staged because our materials teach their children how to do the same calculations you saw in the demo.  The fact that they often make mistakes in a demo and are corrected by me is another means of knowing it is not faked.

Oftentimes in the demo we will explain or have a student explain exactly how they are able to do such a complicated calculation.

Dr Jones,

Unless you state otherwise, the viewer is left with the false impression that these children can calculate very difficult sums. Your response regarding calculating cube roots is not strictly accurate. To calculate the cube root of a 3 digit number you do need to memorise the cubes from 1 to10 and it would be more accurate to describe this as a feat of memory than of calculation.

I never thought that the demonstrations were staged or faked. The sums demonstrated were chosen for their apparent difficulty and actual ease of calculation. It is good to hear that you get the students to explain how they calculate these sums on your online seminars.

Chris.


 

[Dr Miles R Jones]

Chris1,

Yes, you are right the children must know the cubes of the one digit numbers to calculate the roots of six digit numbers.  Most mathematics is a combination of memorized data interacting with calculating skill.  You memorize the multiplication table and can multiply vast quantities because of it as long as you are facile with the procedure.  It is no different for our kids.

You definitely have a point that demonstration problems are typically chosen because of their apparent difficulty but actual ease of calculation.  Dead time in a public demonstration is fatal.
People lose interest.   However that kind of misses the point that many apparently difficult problems are really very easy if you have the proper prerequisite skills.  Why shouldn't all kids have the mastery that permits rapid mental calculation of large numbers whenever possible.  We focus on those types of computations that are used the most. 

We do not neglect the necessary mathematical calculations children need to know just because they don't provide good fodder for public demonstration.  Fractions for example are a must for entry into higher math.  An addition of fractions problem is really a series of operations and may take some10 seconds to do.  That is too long for demonstration purposes. However, Fraction Master is a prerequisite to entering into our algebra course.  We do not let students enter algebra that do not have their Fraction Master award.  (not a very commercial approach, frankly)

Weakness in mastery of basic math facts to some degree is almost universal even among adults because of poor teaching methodology (what is 9 x 12 = ?).  The next level is factoring, knowing the prime factors at least of the numbers up to 100, some students haven't even heard of it although it is the Fundamental Principle of Mathematics, so weakness in basic facts typically grows into often massive ignorance of factoring.   The third and equally essential skill level is fractions.  If you are good at factoring, fractions are a piece of cake even though there are eight operations with fractions you must master.  Many parents seem to be fooled that their kids are competent with fractions because they can intuit 1/2 + 1/4.   

All of these operations need to be paired with applications such as word problems to teach the higher order thinking  that allows them to connect their calculation skill up with the reality of the world we live in.

[Dr Miles R Jones]

Tanvi,

I must apologize.  You started this thread and I have yet to respond to your question because so many others seem to have weighed in very ably.
We are now recognizing that activation of the cerebral cortex can and does occur much earlier than the average 2 years old as listed on our materials.
Matrix Math is now used effectively with children only a few months old.  I do not know about LM (Little Math, I presume) so I cannot really comment or compare.
To answer one of your questions, JG Math would work very well in conjunction with abacus training.

I can tell you what the major pitfalls are that most early learning materials fall into that we have tried to avoid with JG Matrix Math.
 They often do not prioritize objectives.  For example, I have seen many programs that cheerily promise to teach colors and shapes etc.,
and they do... for a price.  If you want to spend a high price to teach your child colors and shapes fine.  There is so much to learn you
will be broke soon.  Doman is bad about not prioritizing.  Babies are learning about impressionistic paintings and wild birds.
 I have no problem with any of that but are wild birds rather than letter-sounds or digit-quantities really the priority?

Second early learning programs typically take way too long with each stage of the process which is a function of their understanding
of how fast children are capable of progressing.  Kindergarten and first grade math workbooks are very beautifully illustrated with lots of
cool coloring and math activities for the kiddos to do.  In a year's time the child will never advance beyond the most complicated problem
in the book, usually in the range of 7 + 5 (a two digit answer perhaps but seldom if ever larger than the teens). 

Third they are often totally right brained activities treating the child as incapable of learning anything.  Basic math facts and phonics
must be intuited because only a right brain orientation "should" be used.  Left brain skills are subtly discouraged or in some cases
condemned or even demonized.  This is needless nonsense.  It is like two carpenters arguing over whether you build a house with a hammer or a saw.

Matrix Math focus on connecting the quantity with the digits by using a matrix of dots placed on the numbers providing for rapid advancement to addition and subtraction.
We then build up their concentration and knowledge of math facts via practice eventually getting them off the dot matrix once they have memorized the matrix.
It is a great program that can get a 5 or 6 year old to mastery of addition and subtraction often within a few weeks.  For younger children it takes longer but
it is still very effective as long as you apply the program consistently and have fun bonding with your child.  If it is a chore to you, it will be a chore to them too.
Progress is determined by a set of 10 steps rather than a timeline.  It is a process, it takes whatever time the process takes.  Just follow the steps to success.
All the materials are provided so you don't have to make anything yourself.  The process is explained in detail in the text and on the DVD. 

[Tanvi_16]

Thanks a lot Dr. Jones. Finally i got answer to my question  . So, I can use JG with abacus.

Thanks to all...

-- Tanvi.

[Chris1]

Yes, you are right the children must know the cubes of the one digit numbers to calculate the roots of six digit numbers.  Most mathematics is a combination of memorized data interacting with calculating skill.  You memorize the multiplication table and can multiply vast quantities because of it as long as you are facile with the procedure.  It is no different for our kids.

I might have missed something here. Which of the four basic arithmetic operations do the children use to calculate cube roots?

Chris.

[Dr Miles R Jones]

Chris,

The kids learn the first, second, and third powers of the digits 0-9 as a part of learning their Factor Table (multiplication table).  Third power products are not in the multiplication table but we will immediately proceed to doing powers and roots once mult & div are mastered.  Once they are grounded in powers we proceed to derivation of roots.  Second and third power are the ones used the most often so we concentrate on doing those calculations quickly.

[Dr Miles R Jones]

Tanvi,

Absolutely, although I am not expert with the abacus I have looked into the research results of those practicing mathematics this way and they are very good.  I find it to be especially effective for being able to visual place value so well and consequently being able to visual math calculations in a way that paper and pencil methods are not conducive to.  We are planning to add abacus practice into our Math Two program which follows Matrix Math which is Math One. Math Two is a program still at the planning stage.  Hope to have it available this years.

 Lead the way Tanvi !  Keep us posted on your results.

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