To Nee1,

“You are not the first person to tell me this. Dr Miles Jones of Jones Geniuses said the exact same thing during one of his early learning seminars. He strongly recommended that parents focus on the major, which are the 3R's (that is Reading, Writing, and Arithmetic). According to him, every other thing is an add-on (or a hobby).  I'd since made major modifications to my priorities as regards my kid's education ever since he said this. And you've confirmed his words with your experience. Thank you.”

You’re welcome, and it’s sure nice to see someone other than a second-rate engineer (actually first-rate, but I don’t like to brag) saying the same thing.


“It's interesting to know that David was able to get ahead because you focused on the major stuff, i.e., math and reading. And in an earlier post, you did mention Amy Chua (Tiger Mom)'s piano and violin priorities as been a bit out of place….I agree. I’ve gone for several interviews in my life and no one asked me if I could play the piano or not.  Yes, those other things are important, but I treat them as add-ons, not the main stuff.  Since Dr Jones shared those insights, I’d refocused my energies completely. Thank you for chiming in with your experience.”

Yep, I think I mentioned it before when I discussed the probability game.  Yes, there’s Yo-Yo’s Mother, who can make a living playing the Cello, but there are, maybe, a few thousand orchestra musicians that can make a living at it (maybe less).  But there are probably tens of millions of people that have sacrificed much of their education because of their love (or, in many cases, their parents’ love) of music.  They have very little to show.  My best friend growing up, the electrical contractor, played Cello (really) in junior high.  He never did all that well in school…and spending time on that certainly didn’t help him one bit.
On the other hand, if your kid can have reading and math out of the way, then hobbies like violin can be done without the cost.  Just something to think about.
 

“Could you elaborate more on this? You are always saying the most insightful things, giving me lots of food for thought. Thank you so, so much for joining us on this forum. You’ve impacted more minds than you think.”
Not sure what you’re referring to, unless what I’ve discussed above.
But thank you for the kind words – it still blows my mind to have actually found parents that want the same for their kids – rather than just thinking of David as some freak of nature.

To Mandabplus3,

“Will some clever person list the order to travel through the books in?”
I’ll only re-iterate what my knowledge base in Saxon is:  The first hardcover is 54, then 65, then 76, then 87.  From there it’s Algebra 1/2 (simply the greatest textbook ever written, by the way), then Algebra 1, Algebra 2, Advanced Mathematics, and finally Calculus.   We never did Calculus, but by finishing the book before it (we did that cover to cover, every section, every problem, and it is a thick book), David was more than ready for Calculus at the college level.

“Next question. Robert why do you think they stuffed up the newer editions? What's different? How different? At some point I am sure I won't have a choice and will have to use one of the new ones,  once the hens teeth fall out!  Also if possible to know what edition did they change at?”
To answer this, you have to understand the history of Saxon.  The company was started by a retired Air Force pilot, who wrote worksheets.  He then upgraded them into books and then his series of books.  He sold millions of them – but they were still very small in the word of text books.  The results were absolutely remarkable – kids using Saxon (properly) were way, way, ahead of their peers.  It wasn’t even close.  So didn’t the education establishment embrace Saxon – not at all (no pictures of Nelson Mendela, for starters).  They fought tooth and nail to keep them from taking hold.  John Saxon, the founder, fought them right back, using test scores to make his points.  Homeschoolers used Saxon in droves, they knew a good thing and had no political forces involved in their curriculum selection.  But in the end, Mr. Saxon died.  The company went to his kids.  The kids sold it to a big textbook company, which then took it upon themselves to re-position the brand to “remedial” students.  They did a few things that worry people, such as getting rid of hardcover books and going to “consumable” books – and, I think, significantly changing content, at least in some cases.  They’ve been doing this for about a decade and they are still doing it.  So are they worse now?  I can’t say because I haven’t seen the new additions (and I have to be careful what I say).  But I will say, for certain, that there was absolutely no room for improvement with the original version – they were perfect.
So my recommendation is to get what was called the “Home School Kit”, which consisted of the hardcover books, the solutions manual, and a test book with solutions (which we never used).

To MummyRoo,

“This is so true! My brother is 11 and just started high school. His middle school was very good - they got top marks on all the government check-ups and they had a high percentage of kids doing really well. BUT my mum complained most weeks about one or more pieces of homework where he had to essentially learn the material at home to review in class time! Now, we live in a good area and most of the parents are bothered about their children's education (though the majority seem content to pay for after-school tutors and Kumon rather than sit down with the kids themselves). I am sure that is the sole reason that "teaching" in this way is of any use.”
That’s basically it, and sad to say, it’s political.  It is their dream to equalize things, among genders, races, and whatever.  Once you accept that, things make sense.  Why teach multiplication tables if some kids (of certain races) will have trouble learning it?  Easier instead just to give all the kids calculators – nothing can equalize things more than having every kid using the same calculator.  Just keep that in mind, and you’re fine.  I looked at David’s schooling for two things:  (1) Day care – to give my wife a break;  (2) To fill in the gaps in stuff like science and history.  School worked fine there.  But I was not about to ever trust them with teaching him reading or maths.

“I am teaching my son to read, but I am not really worried about it. He is interested and even with little help should be reading long before he's due for school.”
Keep that up, and don’t let off.  It only took David 6 weeks to learn to read (at age 3.5) – and then I worked with him for another 6 months or so to get him near adult level.  Once you’re there, you’re done.  So just get it out of the way and you won’t have to think about it anymore.

“There is very little that will encourage a weak mathematician to become a strong one. The schools won't help - they teach twenty different ways to add up, not one of them being in any way efficient! That is something that really worries me. I tutor a little boy who is not great at maths. It would be immensely helpful if his parents would work with him to learn his times tables, but I guess that is what they want me for. What really bothers me is that he gets really nervous if I try to show him the (more efficient) way that I work out the sums. He spends most of the lesson trying to explain how he has been taught (and it is usually a different way each week), because he doesn't understand how to add in columns and won't try since he'll never need it at school!”
I’m sorry to hear all that – I sure hope the parents with younger kids are reading this.  He basically needs to be deprogrammed now and that is not easy, nor 100% effective.  That’s why I was dead-set to not only keep my kid up, but to get him 2 years ahead.  That was my initial goal in maths, and it was based on him being far enough ahead that no matter what the schools tried to teach him, he already knew the right way, and would be proficient at it.  Obviously, David got much further ahead than that, but the concept was still there – I taught him everything (through pre-Calc) and did it before anyone could screw with his brain.

“Whether I send my son to school or not, he will be learning maths from me.”
I love it!!  Music to my ears.

“I expect he will be many years ahead of his peers, who will spend the first term of school learning to add the numbers 1-5. I am determined that he will enjoy maths. I have been at a point were doing maths was painful.”
I don’t know how well I’ve come across before, but David absolutely hated doing maths.  But the point is that it didn’t matter to me.  Maths was simply too important.  It’s not even close to being debatable – so as  a parent you have to state to yourself (and it’s not easy):  “I DON’T CARE IF YOU HATE MATHS, YOU ARE GOING TO DO IT, BECAUSE IT IS THAT IMPORTANT !!!!”  Once you have that mindset, which you seem to, then everything else will fall into place.  And, by the way, one of his BS degrees is in Maths.  He does love it now.

“I was told by my maths teachers that I was useless and a failure. Three years out of school, I took a psychological test that told me I was actually very mathematically-minded and I re-learned my past enjoyment of maths. I am now capable to pre-university level and actually find complex algebra problems fun (much the same way others enjoy a crossword). I never want my son to go through that.”
Join the club.  I went through exactly the same.  You should never permit your son’s success in life (which is more determined by reading and maths than everything else combined) to be in the hands of people that you barely know, who likely hated maths (at least in the States), and who could really care less where your kid is in 20 years.  You are his parent, you are the only person that cares (along with some others, especially relatives – but you get my point).

Mandabplus3,

"I wont  ignore you, or get mad at your advice. I like to keep an open mind. For this kid at this time I have no concerns but I am not stupid or naive and I know at some point in the future the lure of Facebook will win out. College is a few years off but puberty isn't nearly far enough away! I will take the warning and remember the wise words of Robert”
Thank you very much.  Believe it or not, I was worried most of the day how you would take it.  I hit you very, very, hard, but you can see it was from the heart, based on what I went through.  Even David wasn’t very happy to have that portion of his life put out in public.  You’ve been warned, and you’re not showing any signing of dismissing it – so you will do great with your kids.

“For the record she is getting her 2 lessons a day done no problem. Some days she does more. It is eating into her reading time. But to be honest she can't get much better at that anyway.”
Exactly, and I know the feeling.  Not long ago, based on this thread, I asked myself and David what I could have done differently, in the context of sight words, to even get him further ahead.  We both came up totally blank.  His reading was approaching a decade ahead of his age level – there was nothing left that could have made it better.  So I agree, you’re done with reading and she, like David, will take it from there – and she will find her own time – don’t worry about it – your job is done here.  It’s also awesome that you’re getting the two lessons per day.  As I’ve said, be sure to do every, single problem, and make sure she’s finally able to do every one, before advancing to the next section.

“The reading time is just for story exposure and we still find some time each day to read the classics together, just a bit less time than previously. I am happy with this trade off as I think math is more important to her, both now and long term.”
And it’s not a tradeoff.  I’m convinced that the later a kid learns math, the slower it comes.  So it’s a no-brainer, you do the math, just like you say.  She’ll have more than enough time to pick up the classics or anything else she wants to read.  And she will lots and lots and lots of time to do so, with math effectively out of the way.

“We ( her and I) arnt prepared to drop the gymnastics as she is good enough to go all the way. Gymnastics is what makes her heart sing. So the math just has to fitin around it. She is too bright to just be a gymnastics coach for life so the math is to open other doors and opportunities.”
Exactly.  And if she can keep up two Saxon sections a day with gymnastics, then you’re all set.  David didn’t just do math, he did Karate, baseball, being with friends (including sleepovers), violin and piano (of which he hated – he got that from me, LOL).  As long as she’s not booked solid in her afternoons and weekends, she’ll be fine for math.

“It's been really great reading through and getting all the details of how and why you did it Robert. I shall probably refer back here for years to come! Thanks"
Thank you also.  I really appreciate your class, considering what I had written.  You will have a very happy parenthood, at least we have.  Our kid is crazy about us, both because of his early learning and because we gave him clear rules all the way through - he knows enough kids (and adults) that weren't that lucky.

To Nee1,

“Thanks for the insights, Robert, especially the one on homework. Like you,  I believe in real solid academic work, not busy work. And I also strongly believe that a parent should be in charge of his/her child's education, whether the kids are enrolled in school or not. Don't leave it entirely to the schools, you may be shocked at the outcome.”
You're welcome.  Later on you have a quote from Sykes that mentions parents doing their kid’s homework.  Well guess what – if my kid could get another section of Saxon Math done in lieu of doing some useless homework project, guess who does the math and guess who does the ‘project’.  I’ll make the call as to whether the homework is helping my kid, and if it’s not, I’ll do it for him.  To do otherwise is to have blind faith in the same teachers that are part of this country’s decline.  To me, that’s part of taking charge of your kid’s education.

“Most parents, when advised to read aloud to their kids and teach them stuff at home, ask  'what is the job of the schools then?’ and refuse to do it.  Soon, the kids start having problems in school and start failing.  The parents now start undertaking remedial work to get the kids to catch up.”
So true, but here’s the fallacy:  You have to learn the code words.  When a teacher asks for parents to “be involved” at least these days, it means that they expect the parent to teach the material to the kid, because the teacher (for whatever reason) is not doing so.  If parents understood that, there would a lot less kids that are “behind”.  So yes, I suspect that something like 80% of the kids that are “having problems” learning are only having the problems because they are neither being taught in school, nor taught at home.  Asian (including Indian) parents figured this out long ago and thus have zero expectations for their schools and, instead, take care of getting their kids educated outside of school.  That is the primary reason they do so well (having higher than average IQs helps too, but the kids still need an education, somewhere).

“ Oh well. I wish that had been done from the start, it would have saved the poor kids so much trauma.”
Precisely, and you hit my biggest fear as a parent.  I was scared to death of my kid getting behind – because I know what that’s like and it’s not fun and it take probably 10 times as much effort to catch back up, as it would have taken just to keep up.  Parents must, never, ever, let their kids fall behind.  But don’t take this personal – because there are very few people in this country that will tell you that your kid is almost certain to fall behind if he doesn’t get educated outside of what we call “school”.

“ Dr Richard Gentry, an expert on childhood literacy makes the same point in his blog article titled 'A Lack of Parent Engagement Helps Create Failing Schools'.”
I have mixed feelings on this.  I think we spend more than enough money on education such that parents should not have to do anything.  But that is not the case, as I’ve mentioned in the earlier post.  I also have trouble understanding how “parental engagement” can overcome curricula that is design to fail the kids.  The only way parental engagement can work is if parents take the approach that I took, and that home schoolers take, which is to assume that no one, other than them, will be educating their kids – because they are about 80% right if they believe that.

“And yes, I like your attitude that study time is study time, not play time. Once you finish with your work, you can go and play. My son is very young, and I use the same approach with him. Why? Because I’m trying to inculcate good habits of perseverance and concentration when working. Don’t confuse work with play, son. We work, and if you can sit still, we’ll finish the work in very little time, and you’ll have the rest of the day to play. Especially in this era of ADHD, it is very important for a child to be able to sit still for several minutes or even hours to do work.”
Sounds good there.  If you have the priorities right, your kids will get the education they need, and will still have a good deal of free time.  It just has to be set up right.  If the kid is running around playing all afternoon (not that they do that anymore, but hypothetically), it’s not really fair to hit up with two rounds of Saxon in the evening.  In other words, do the math first, then the other stuff.
 
" American parents do not like what they regard as excessive homework and frequently express distaste for schoolwork if it interferes with other activities they think should be given equal or even  greater value.
Homework aside, I even see Saxon parents trading off things like dancing and figure skating against learning math.  That is the right of the parents, but, in my opinion, they’re taking some risk.  Not knowing how to dance will not cripple a kid’s future (as I can attest to), but not knowing reading and math will.  It makes me cringe.  I was teaching reading to some 4 year old friends of David.  But they couldn’t make it over much, because of other things, like violin (believe it or not) and gymnastics.  They never had a chance to match David…and only because of that (they were actually smarter than him).

“Asian parents regard children under the age of six as enjoying an "age of innocence"…But when children turn six and enter first grade, there is a dramatic change. For the Japanese and Chinese parents, the age of innocence is replaced by the "age of reason," when a child enters elementary school. Parents who were previously "nurturant and permissive become authorities who demand obedience, respect, and adherence to their rules and goals (20) ".
This was interesting.  One of the things that confused me, believe it or not, was why David was able to run circles not just around American kids (which doesn’t take much), but around kids all over the world.  This helps explain it.  By the time David was 6 years old, he was reading at an adult level and was years and years ahead in math.  I had him learning during those 2.5 years, from Age 3.5 until Age 6, while Asian countries don’t do that.   Good to know.

“For too many Americans, Stevenson found, "schoolwork is considered to be the responsibility of teachers and students, rather than a major concern for parents."
That’s it.  Put junior on that big, yellow, bus and never have to worry about him.  That may have worked 40 years ago, but the schools are run and taught by a different bunch now.

“This perhaps explains the story one mother told me as I was working on this book: She had attended a parents meeting at her child's elementary school. At the meeting some of the other parents complained that their children were being given too much homework and that it was interfering with their sports, and even cutting into the time they had for watching, television.”
Look at this as an opportunity – if parents have this attitude, then it’s that much easier for your kids to get a high score on the SAT or Medical Board Exam, since they grade on a curve.  Don’t worry about other parents, and certainly don’t let their problems bring your kids down.

“Other mothers admitted-apparently without embarrassment-that they had done their children's homework for them, to spare them both time and anxiety.”}
I freely admit that too.  If the homework is useless, and my kid could otherwise be learning, then I did his homework.

Bottom line here – none of this matters when one takes the education of their kids into their own hands.

To Mandabplus3,

“You know I am not game to read any of those books! I work in education, I see it every day. If I read anymore I might just quit, give up and teach my kids gardening instead!”
So you’re already there.  I agree – no need for the books.  The books are more for people who need some support, because going against “the system” is not a lot different than that guy in Tiananmen Square who stood in front of the tank.  You know that you’re putting everything you have on the line, so you need to be ready to make your case.  But if you’re there, already, then no problem.

“In all fairness Australia isn't as bad as other places. My kids get a good education, not good enough for me but EVERY kid in their year can read at least.”
That is impressive.  Being able to read seems to be an afterthought now in our system.

“ I also pay for private schooling for a reason. Same one as you did Robert.”
Yep, you must fill in the holes, and do it before the kid is behind.  You are doing great here.

“ Yes there are all types in the world but that doesn't mean I want my kids mixing with them! I choose my friends wisely ( and my work environment for that matter) and I expect my kids to choose their friends wisely too. I will help them learn to do that by paying to get a better melting pot to choose from. To ensure you all know I am not racist both of my girls have "coloured"  best friends. It's not the ethnicity I am avoiding, it's mostly the parents empossed attitudes towards education and self discipline.”
I doubt anyone on this site has any problems with anyone based on skin color.  Obviously that’s not the point.  There are plenty of crappy white people and there are plenty of very classy blacks, Hispanics, etc.  We (thankfully) still get to choose who we associate with – there really isn’t a reason for any of us to force our kids to associate with drug dealers and other losers…just to be able to say that they understand ‘diversity’.

“Sadly I can clearly see many of the people I work with would be better teachers with more training and flexibility with reporting. I think the training they get is pathetic at best.”
That’s only part of it.  The biggest problem, at least here, is that they are “education” majors.  They chose education because they hated math, and probably hated science too.  Yet they are forced to teach it.  It would be unreasonable to expect decent results from people that hate what they’re doing (at least regarding math, and probably science).  One must take that into account when you put your precious child on that big yellow bus.

“ Any of the good teachers do their research elsewhere OUTSIDE of their degree. ( places like here are a great start  big grin)”
Yes, but at least here, they have zero interest in us.  They are absolutely convinced that they know everything necessary to ‘educate’ a child.  Dr. Sowell makes that quite clear.  The ones that actually do a good job are either about to retire or about to get fired.  The system is rigged against them, and it gets worse, almost by the day (with the latest being the “Common Core Curriculum”, that nearly all schools will adopt).

“Anyway, yep I have the iPod covered.  we have no concerns about her having access to the wifi, she is honest and good right to the heart.”
Sorry, but that worries me.  When my kid spent a college semester playing video games, rather than studying, to the point of lying to me about never get his crappy test scores back and nearly flunking out of school  (he had complained and complained that we didn’t give him enough freedom, and we didn’t trust him – so we let him go that semester), I didn’t get mad at him, I just explained to him that he was powerless to prevent the people that designed these games from taking over his brain.  They are experts at it.  There was absolutely nothing he could do.  It was, literally, no different from heroin. 
Do not ever think that you come first, because you don’t.  Facebook will always win.  Video games will always win.  Now, as I said at the beginning, you paid nothing for my advice, and you are welcome to ignore me (or get mad at me) – but I will give my advice (for others, at least) based on exactly what I’ve experienced, and it was rough because it dragged down his GPA and I never had a chance to do anything about it (i.e., I had no clue since I was lied to – the only time).  So when she goes to bed with the IPOD in her hands, it might be a good idea to shut off the wifi, or better yet, to have that IPOD in your possession.

“ And too busy to waste time online anyway. Now the second child? Well it'll be years before she gets access to the wifi!  LOL”
Now that one I can agree with.

To A_BC,

"I can see his hobby is still related to learning. Enjoying programming at 8 is impressive as most children at that age would spend their time on video games.  Programming looks like just the right alternative to this unwanted behavior. It simply makes computer time more productive."

Yes, and to be honest, it seems to be a push for him between programming and video games - he loves both.  But he's impressed some real hard-hitters with his programming (i.e., he's good at it and may start his career there, rather than in engineering).  He just loves computers.


"Now to define what "neighbor" is in our case, I'd say it's just at the city level."

Ok, thanks.  It wouldn't be fair if you knew me personally, but I didn't know who you were.  Being a non-acquaintance on these terms is fine with me.


"The reason I mentioned that was because I read about the community college hints with big interest. Sharing how you worked with the educational system in Texas helped me shape my vision."

Yes, it's doable.  The Community Colleges here like having advanced kids.  But, unfortunately, the kid who followed David, at his school, was a bit full of himself, from what I've heard.  So the person there who went out of her way for both David and his successor is going to be more careful (and selective) in the future.  As I've said before, there's a good reason why I (figuratively) beat it into him that he was nothing special, instead just a kid who started early.  It's critical that any kid in his situation understand it.  But yes (to all of you out there) he does know he's special - once in a while I'll show him an article about a kid starting college at Age 14 (for example) and we'll both laugh and call him a "slacker" and wonder why they're wasting ink on him (since David started at 11).  It's a lot of fun.  I got him to the point where he can have fun making jokes about others, but never in a situation where it might hurt them (and thus hurt or embarrass himself).


"Even though my son may take a different path from yours, I know at least that there are ways to accommodate his educational needs."

There are, but always remember they, the college, is doing you the favor.  It's a lot easier to get arrogant and say that "My kid is special !!!"   Well guess what - to a parent EVERY kid is special, and teachers and others have heard it over and over again.  In one of David's classes when he was young (before college), my wife politely asked the teacher to try to give David some work that would challenge him, rather than grade-level work.  The teacher basically told her to shove it.  She was upset, and I told her exactly what I just wrote, above.  The teacher likely had heard it all from parents and was not about to get pushed around by another doting parent.  I told my wife to forget it.  Needless to say, my wife was right, and a week later a freaked-out teacher was very nice to her (after getting to know David).   In another case, at the Community College, David wiped out on some stairs and broke some teeth.  It was slippery, he was in a hurry to get to class, and he had a heavy backpack on.   We asked for the police report - they hesitated on giving to us, because they thought we'd sue them.  Heck, I was afraid he'd be kicked out of school there for being too little to navigate the campus (at that time he was very small for his age...now he's normal sized).  I promised them it was just for insurance and they were relieved.  How the heck could I think of suing them, after what they did for him?   But their fear was understandable - but as parents, we have to do everything possible for the school to feel comfortable with our little guys.  Remember, it is much, much, easier for them to say "sorry, too young".


"BTW, he loves math and we are doing simple addition and subtraction using RightStart Math and other programs and manipulatives (especially dominoes). Still a long way to go and we are progressing slowly, but what matters the most to me is to make math part of his daily life, sth that he will do naturally... Well, I hope so!""

No comment on that curriculum, either way.  I've posted my approach.  The only thing to remember is that math is not something a little kid runs into much, outside of an academic environment, so the learning must be maintained there.  Reading is just the opposite - it's everywhere.

Hi again Nee1,

I'm reading the first link you posted and they pretty much spelled out why David got so far ahead:

"American mothers estimated that on weekdays their first-graders spent  an average of 14 minutes a day on  homework;  the  daily average for Chinese first- graders was  77  minutes,  and for Japanese, 37  minutes."

My first response, to myself was "I guess this is the difference".  And it really is.  The question being when a kid gets home at 3:30 in the afternoon, and does not go to bed for another 5 to 6 hours, is taking 2 hours or so of that time to actually educate him all that bad?  Or should that time be spent watching TV or playing video games?

"For fifth- graders, the  estimate for the American children was 46  minutes a day..."

I also noticed this.  As David moved up in grade level, he would get homework, but much of it was simply useless.  It was art projects and science projects.  The damn things took a lot of time, and most of the time I would do it myself (and pretty lousy, by the way).  They accomplished nothing, but I suspect they were meant to "keep the kids occupied" or something.  In any case, I bring this up because at the younger ages, before, probably 4th grade, kids have a boatload of free time, during which they can learn reading and math, as David did.  But as they get older, if they're in just about any school, they will start getting hit-up with "busy-work" which will really cut down on that time.

Hi Nee1,

"Apart from Sowell's 'Inside American Education', what other 5-6 books did you read? Can you paste their titles? I've read `Dumbing Us Down' by John Gatto and `Dumbing Down Our Kids - Why American Kids Feel Good About Themselves but Can't Read, Write, or Add'  by Charles Sykes."

That's a good set of books you list up there.  Sykes was the second name that came to my mind.  To be honest, I don't remember the others, and I've long since given them away.  If I were doing it now, though, I'd go to amazon, look up "Inside American Education" and then see the books they suggest, which are typically similar in philosophy - also read the comments, as they often point you to good stuff.  But given the above books, I think you're about set.  You'll see that these books are very good in getting you in right mindset to go against 90% plus of the country and educate your child outside of "the system".  The actual instruction, however, is not covered in those books.  For that I'm not as sure, as I basically winged it, and didn't have a manual to go by.


"I've also read a lot of Harold Stevenson's cross-cultural studies on academic performance between nations and I shared my insights on this thread  - http://forum.brillkids.com/general-discussion-b5/why-japanese-and-chinese-kids-outperform-american-children-(research-article)/.  And this one  http://forum.brillkids.com/teaching-your-child-math/proportion-of-el-time-devoted-to-math-(split-from-2-year-old-thread)/msg89195/"

Interesting, I'll check that out.


"I'm in Europe and I'm seeing the same trends in schools here - the 'feel good' and 'self-esteem' syndrome, the substitution of solid academic content for indoctrination, etc. At least by reading these books, I'll know what exactly is going on in those schools and how to prepare myself in case my kid ends up in one of them."

Awesome!  You're keeping ahead of these clowns - they all follow the same template.  Once you know that and understand that, they cannot defeat you.  They can defeat 99% of the other people, but not you.  So I need to warn you - you will be looked at as a total nutcase over there (it's bad enough here, but you guys are still decades behind us in the race to the bottom, so people there still respect schools).  You cannot, ever, let that get to you.  You also should not talk much about what you know, because you'll find yourself out of friends very quickly.  Nope...you're just a concerned parent with some spare time to help your children.

I remember the beginning of the self-esteem movement here very well.  Dr. Sowell used to always say: "Look at those thugs on the corner, the way they act, the sneakers they wear.  Do they look depressed and lacking self-esteem?  Heck no, they have plenty of it - all unearned, but plenty of it"  There never was a "self-esteem" problem with kids, but it was a great way for the education system to excuse failure.  After all, who wants to hurt a kid's self-esteem.

Hi A_BC,

"I am so thankful to Mr. Levy for sharing his valuable experience with us. Now my question is about David's leisure time. Does he have any hobbies he's doing "just for fun"?"

You're welcome, and I would say the hobby that he likes most is computer programming.  I had him take some pretty tough classes in "C" when he was, maybe, 8 years old - and like any kid who's actually learning something, he didn't enjoy it much.  But then he got the hang of it, and from what I can tell (I don't program), he's very, very, good, and just loves it.  Prior to that, about the only thing that he'd want to do was play with his toys.  I never enjoyed sports much, although he did the Karate thing and baseball (for very young types).  But programming was the only hobby that was really all his.  One thing that comes to mind that I haven't mentioned before, although it doesn't fit your question was that he would wiped out, because of doing the math, by 9:00 to 10:00 at night (depending on his age).  This worked great for all of us, because when hit the bed, he never, ever, had trouble sleeping, he was solid asleep - and as parents, that certainly made our lives easier.


"How much time does he spend on them and how do you let him know that "there is a time for playing and there is time for working""

That was very simple.  When it was time for working, I told him.  No negotiation - I simply told him.  When it wasn't time for working, then it was time for playing.


"P.S: BTW, I am a neighbor smile"

Please define what "neighbor" is - you know who I am.

That sounds fine, you seem to have a good plan.  I showed that line on the flash cards to my kid too.  As cynical as I was towards public education at the start with David, I only got worse as the years went by.  After all, like I say, I'm a  second-rate engineer with zero training on how kids learn, how to motivate them, and even what curriculum works.  But I followed my instincts based on my experiences and what I was hearing in the political world - which was completely different than what the experts insist on, and David (obviously) blew past their template.  It's hard to think of an analogy, but the one that comes to mind (to me) would be if my wife has surgery for something, and she improves, but not all that much - but the doctor says that the best that medicine can do.  So I (as a non-doctor) say, "I can do better", so I cut her open, do a few things, and she winds up much, much, better off.  If that happened, one could, I'm sure, then understand my cynicism towards the medical community.  But that would never happen (of course), I would never consider trying, and if I did, I'd be looking at decades in jail.  But that's my point - I shouldn't be able to do something better than a field that has millions and millions of workers and trillions of dollars of money to work with - but I did in education, and much, much, better.   So when I make my snide remark about flash cards, you know where I'm coming from - and what is true now, is that the flash cards actually have the answer (along with the problem) in small print on the back.  I suspect too many parents complained when they needed to have a calculator with them as they worked the problems (LOL).  Anyway, I bring this up to warn you (and others) that if you pull this off, you may wind up as a different person, even more polarized than you may have been when you started.

Just a bit of caution on the IPOD - they do have internet capability if you have a wireless system in your place (or a neighbor has an unlocked system).  I would strongly advise to keep that locked out as long as possible.  Listen to music - fine, surf the web, not so fine.  And be sure you understand it - I don't, I only know what David tells me, and he didn't get his until only a year ago (I got him MP3 players prior, but not an IPOD).

Anyway, your plan sounds great and please keep us all informed.

Mandabplus3
“Thanks to you all I have learnt MUCH reading this thread.  Robert THANKYOU so very much for jumping on here with us. I in particular have really enjoyed your contribution.”
You’re certainly welcome, and given all the kind responses, I won’t doubt you guys again.

“Did your son find Saxon 5/4 ridiculously easy when you first started?”
Yes and no.  Thanks to the number sheets he had no problems at all on the arithmetic end of it.  But much of the other stuff was very challenging, and forced him to think hard (he was 6 when he started on it).  The ones that I remember as  really challenging were problems such as having a block of cubes 3 x 4 x 5, and painting the outside of the block black.  What you had to do was figure out how many cubes had no paint on them, how many had one surface painted, two surfaces, and three surfaces.  It was a tough problem for a little guy.  So were time (i.e., clock) problems, where it’s 2 hrs. 40 minutes earlier…  I even struggled with some of them.

“ Based on your comments I can assume he had a really good basis in math and was probably pretty quick at basic calculations mentally.”
Yes and no mentally – he never really got the “feel of the numbers” as I call it until much later, but could always do the work on paper, and quickly.

“ I am using 5/4 with my 3rd grade child and she is finding it easy. I skipped ahead to see if it gets harder and really it won't be much of a stretch for her at all. I am considering starting my grade 1 child on saxon 5/4 at a slower pace. It’s pretty much at her level now. I am reluctant to skip to the next book as I believe in a solid foundation and she doesn't have any math facts memorized, she is just pretty good at math overall.”
My first thought was “you’ll have to make that call, as  I’m just not privy enough to even know what’s being taught” – but now I’m thinking something else.  If she’s good at 54, then just have her breeze through the book nice and quick.  At worst she brushes up on her skills, but more likely she’ll plug some gaps.  With Saxon, if you do it all, you will have no gaps – none – that’s why I admire them so much.  For the younger one, I think she definitely needs her addition and multiplication facts memorized, as well as being able to do 2-digit addition and subtraction (division is dealt with in the 54 book).  I wouldn’t recommend starting on 54 until she’s at least there.  In other words, if she struggles with the basics, she really won’t be learning what they’re trying to teach in that book.  So sit her down with number sheets, until she’s at the level I suggested, and then go to 54.

“Based on your experience I have decided that she can do 2 lessons on most days ( probably one on her gymnastics days) and 6 over the weekend. The book will be finished in under 2 months at that rate so I am thinking we will stick with it.”
Exactly.  Perfect pace for the early books, just as we did.  She will be sharp as a nail finishing the book that quick.  Make sure you buy her a gift for finishing it.  And then right on to 65, maybe skipping the first 40 sections, as they’re basically catch-up for the summer break.  If you work that clip, or close to it, you can skip the exams they have, just do the problems.  Never skip a problem and never accept a mistake.  If she gets a problem wrong – tell her it’s wrong and to try again, then slowly give hints if she’s still struggling.  But 95% is not acceptable – she needs to be able to, eventually, answer each one.

“ I was only asking her for one lesson ,most days but decided to up the expectations after reading this thread.”
Concur – if she’s breezing through, then keep it going.  I’m convinced that the faster you’re able to go, the less time (in hours) will be spent on each book.

“I also offered her a reward for the completion of the book. ( don't know why I didn't think of that before!)”
(caution, political rant, LOL)  That’s because rewards don’t mean anything these days, since everyone gets one, for about anything.  Have her really feel she earned it, and it will mean a lot to her.

“In addition to all this I have decided that every time my kids argue or get sent to their rooms they have to complete a lesson in Saxon ( or a page of sums depending othe kid) I will have to carefully balance the rewards and punishments to keep a positive disposition towards math work.”
My answer:  "I won’t go there, other than to say you’re on track – you simply cannot let them run the show.  That’s the number one parenting problem today."
David's answer:  "Risky, you don't want to associate Saxon with punishment, and gives somewhat conflicting messages if there is a reward for completing the book.  I (David) recommend a swat instead.  But it is a delicate balance."
[[ so, tough one...you'll have to pick the approach you're comfortable with ]]

“I figure doing it this way they will either grow up to be nice people or smart enough that it won't matter!”
It always matters (and I know you know that).  The thing is, they will adore you for what you’re doing.  Not now…you’ll be the meanest mom in their video game group, but they’ll see other kids struggling with basic math concepts that they mastered years earlier, and they will know who to thank.

“Oh and it's so refreshing to "chat" with a parent who raised a advanced student with his feet obviously still firmly on solid grounding. Well done!”
Many thanks

Thanks Melanie,

Cayden looks great.

"I was also wondering if you could tell us your top books that you would recommend to help give us more insight."

Not much that I haven't mentioned.  I just figured out the phonics myself and used Saxon starting at their 54 book.  The hardest part, by far, was dealing with others, including the kid and wife, and I'll explain.

For the kid and wife:  No one wants a kid that's screaming and complaining, they want a happy kid - and one glued to video games and/or playing with toys fits that bill.  So my wife wasn't bad, but she's a mom, and when her kid is upset, it bothered her.  But we worked through it and she started seeing results.

For dealing with others:  This was the tough part for me.  I had no template.  I had to figure out whether I was pushing too hard, or in the wrong direction, or whether everything would backfire and maybe screw up his ability to learn later in life.  As I've said, the people that talked to, including my parents, at best thought it was odd, and many said it was simply too fast.  So being confident that it would work was very tough, and, at the beginning, progress is slow, and results are far between, so second thoughts are all over the place.

The reason that I bring that up is because it was books like "Inside American Education" by Thomas Sowell that kept me going - along with other books critiquing today's educational system (there are plenty out there, and I read maybe another 5 or 6).  And it was my political instincts - I simply was not going to let the same people that I didn't trust to run this country - educate my kids.  I just couldn't see how they would do that right, when they couldn't even figure out who the bad guys were during the Cold War (sorry for the politics, but it is part of what drove me).  All of that kept me going...and then things started dropping into place as he read quicker and started breezing through math.

But as far as curriculum was concerned.  It consisted of the following, and nothing else except:
1)  Flash Cards - for addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division - although you might need to buy them used.  I suspect if you buy them new and open the box, all you'll find is a cheap calculator.
2)  Marker Board - for teaching phonics, starting with the word "cat";  I would just write letters and words, obviously starting with the easiest first.  Then I used it for a number line, while doing plus and minus flash cards.
3)  Books to Read - Some easy, some tough.  "The Lion King" was a very tough one, but he wanted to read it.  We were lucky to get through one page a day, at times.
4)  Math number sheets - Addition, subtraction, multiplication, division, fractions, decimals.  Just made those up out of thin air and printed them out (he hated them...and so did I, thank God for Saxon).
5)  Saxon Math - Math 54 through Advanced Math (pre-calc), only use hardcover editions.  No calculators until near the very end.  I even printed up log and trig tables.

That was it.  I looked at computer applications to teach kids phonics and math, and they simply didn't seem to be doing it - they seemed more concerned with keeping the kids entertained then having them learn (my opinion, of course), but that was how I saw it.

Thank you guys, all is well – appreciate the words.  I’ll reply to some specific comments, below, from the first of the true “rants” (LOL), above.
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To Queriquita,
“…especially since realizing that the masses really equate letters behind one's name to credibility!”
Unfortunately, that is the case in this country.  Yes, there are plenty of ways to be successful without college, but life comes down to a probability game, in the end, and college drastically raises the probability of a comfortable life.  For example, a kid who is good in football in junior high might make to the NFL, and thus make huge bucks, but what are really his odds – maybe 1000 to 1.  Likewise, a kid who is an auto mechanic or plumber may make it big in the business, own a large firm, and be all set, but the odds there are still very stacked – maybe 100 to 1 (or 20 to 1, at best).  My best friend in high school became an electrician, then a contractor, then had his own business.  He was busy as heck, so I told him to hire some high school kids.  He tried, offered twice minimum wage, no one wanted it (heck, I would have paid that, to learn those skills).  He ended up hiring a couple of other people (at different times).  One stole jewelry from a customer, and the other also didn’t work out.  He did that for 30 years, and was as  good as they come – at one point he was charging over $100 per hour.  But the money was in fits and starts, and then the jobs pretty much dried up completely and he, luckily, got himself a job for a big hospital group as their chief electrician.  He does great, loves it, but still only earns half as much as my kid will start out at (assuming he gets a job at market salary). 
But a kid who gets an MD is basically 100% set;  engineering, maybe 90% to 95%, and then it starts to drop for other majors, but their probability of having a comfortable life is still much, much, higher than non-college.  Is that fair, or just?  It depends whose side you’re on.  If I’m an employer and I have a job that requires reading, I’m going to want someone with a 2-year community college degree (minimum), simply because I wouldn’t trust high school graduates to have that skill (at least in a lot of cases).  If they’re expected to do some math, then I’d want to see college-level math completed.   Our schools have created this mess, not the people trying to stay in business, and not society as a whole.
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“granted, i can get my kids to bypass our wonderful educational system by having them go the early-admission-cc-to-4-yr-uni route with a masters by the time their peers are finishing up high schoo…but that still leaves my kids living in a country with peers who were severely failed.”
Yes and no.  You have to define peers.  People say that public schools are good, even for people that are on a high-achieving college track, since you get to understand all types of people, and that’s what’s out there in the real world.  I don’t buy that.  Yes, there are all types out there in the world, but unless I’m at Walmart or at the other end of a gun (or DMV), I don’t have to interact with them.  I don’t have to live in their neighborhoods, and I don’t have to invite them over to my house.  I can if I want, but I don’t have to.  Likewise, beating (figuratively, of course) into my kid that he’s nothing special allows him to not look down at  those Walmart workers, but to respect them for who they are.  At to the country as  whole, yes, it’s depressing to consider all of the young adults aimlessly trying to figure out what to do with their lives, when they spent their entire childhood dreaming of being a video game designer (and therefore trying to master every video game) just to find out that designing video games takes hard work for very few high-paying jobs, and they’re more likely to be a starter in the NFL then to get one of those jobs – but you cannot carry the country’s stupidity on your shoulders and you just have to live with it.  I take a lot of solace because I work with many well-educated, foreign-born people who do well, and keep coming in here and snapping up the good jobs, and really helping out the country.  Without them, we’d be doomed.
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“ and somehow, to me, not doing something about it means that i'm failing my kids, too. “
Other than running for office and then finding out just how well organized and nasty the people are that have given us (and maintain) this system, you can’t do much.  The best you can do is give your kids the tools they need to be successful, regardless of where this country goes.
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“i feel that i should be able to engage in thought-provoking dialogue with anyone in my community…until i'm certain that…offenses won't be taken”
Yep, and sorry.  My kid has some friends from the Middle East.  I warned him to never, ever, talk politics with them, no matter how nice they seem, because you don’t know what will set them off, and what will be the consequences of it (and yes, we found out later, sure enough, some things set them off).  I work with some really great Indians.  They always talk about being Indian, so I made the stupid mistake of also noticing they were Indians and talking.  My boss started investigating to see if I was racist.  Thankfully one of the Indians told me that he defended me when questioned – and to this day I have absolutely no clue what I said or did.  That is our country – the only way that changes is to clean the people out of office who gave us it, and the ones who support it.  Needless to say, a huge task, so don’t even bother thinking you can help there.  What you can do is make darn sure your kids understand the traps out there, particularly if they’re not a protected minority.
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“not only that, i am one of those 'one person can change the world' sort of people.  where would humanity be without people straying from the social herd and thinking they could make a positive difference?”
Yes, definitely, one person can change things.  But no, one little sqirt cannot.  Sorry.  That’s my point about telling my kid he’s nothing, until he earns his way to the level where he can make a difference.  Right now, he’s a kid finishing up college with an oversized head on his shoulders (hopefully not, though).  That’s it.  Maybe 20 years from now he’ll be somebody, or, in very, very rare cases, 10 years (Gates, Zuckerberg, etc.), but not now – he’s just another entry-level worker (hopefully soon) getting his footing.
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“and while i can garner merit from you bringing your kid to reality, possibly to keep him grounded in the worth of everyone and engaged within his surrounding social structure; i respectfully cringe at my interpretation of you drilling into your child that he isn't brilliant.”
Actually, you provided your own reply to the above later on, where you said that most (actually, nearly all) kids can be accelerated.  If that is the case, then there’s really nothing all that different about my kid.  He’s accelerated, not brilliant.  He becomes brilliant when he starts opening up new areas in science and engineering.  My mom knew a lady that won the Nobel Prize, for work she did in medicine at the sub-microscopic level.  She told me that they had to come up with new units of measurements because of her work.  That is groundbreaking and brilliant.  Getting through college 5 or 6 years ahead of others is not.  When I conclude my kid is actually brilliant, he’ll be the first to I know – you have my word.
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“ i do believe that relating to our peers is crucial.  after all, what's the point of having something to say/contribute, if no one is willing to listen/accept what you have to offer?”
Agree.  That’s the whole point of making sure his achievements don’t get to his head.  As long as he understands that there is nothing special about him making him superior to others, he will do fine with others.  I cringe at parents (my turn, but not at you) that think their kids will be scarred for life if they’re not told every day that the world revolves around them.  It doesn’t and it’s better for the kid to enter the world understanding that, then to have later shoved in his face when he’s not ready for it.

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“rant aside (no offense intended!), i would love to see more kids exposed to accelerated learning.  so many, in fact, that it is no longer considered accelerated and just becomes the norm.   why?  because we're all capable of it!”
This is where you answered your (above) question – you’re basically saying that accelerated learning can be the norm.  I too would love to see it – just so there wouldn’t be so many empty lives in this country.
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“and as for whether i was offended by your comments: initially, yes, i was put off.  but i kept reading and could clearly understand how your passion was fueled.”
Thanks, appreciate the feedback, and appreciate that you see where I’m coming from.
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“i feel blessed each day for coming across this forum and its participants.  i know that without them, my kids would be that much farther from reaching their natural potential.”
Like I’ve said earlier, I too am happy to see a forum which respects accelerated learning, rather than thinking it’s just a poor kid who got stuck with a drill-sergeant for a dad.
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“ welcome, and feel free to share your opinions as they come.”
Thanks again, with your kind comments, and the others, I’ll keep replying when it makes sense to.
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To MummyRoo,
“YET I distinctly remember sitting through two years of maths and science where I completed the class work and homework in around 10 minutes and spent the next 45 minutes chatting with my equally capable friend. We *begged* our teachers for more work and were refused! We actually got told off for *doing* our homework because the teacher told the class "to continue from where we were in the textbook for 1/2 hour at home" and didn't tell us not to. She was fuming the next lesson when we were massively ahead of the rest of the class…”
Sorry to hear that.  It looks like you guys (i.e., Brits) are taking marching orders from the States.  Sorry to hear that.  From your description, it seems that the entire purpose of those schools, now, is to take out the high achievers, group them together, and bring them back in line with the ‘average’ students.  In the US, other than in a few cases, we don’t have those kinds of schools.  Instead we bring down the high-achievers in different ways (like not teaching phonics until 4th grade, or teaching maths in ways that don’t make any sense).  I think in your case, they didn’t want to take the political heat of having to explain that success was no longer desired, so they kept the schools open, but simply dumbed them way down.
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“Needless to say, pre-A level I breezed through maths with no effort, in two years I was deemed a failure and incapable of doing higher-level maths. I consider this to be down to three things: bad teaching, being given a calculator (I still have to skip-count through some of my times tables ) and wasting two years before being streamed into a group where we worked the full lesson, but still with no real effort and using a calculator for the next two years.”
That sounds an awful lot like my childhood – which is what drove me to make damn sure that my kid(s) did not have to go through the same.  Not my kids, not in my house.  We’re all a product of our past.  I suspect that when your parents grew up, you had a well-functioning educational system that honored achievement.  I know that was the case for my parents.  So what did our parents do?  They figured that things were essentially unchanged when it was time to send their kids (you and I) to school.  How wrong they were.  It’s difficult for many, if not most, people to accept, but the people who run today’s schools have absolutely nothing in common with the achievement-minded people that ran our parents schools.  It is this fundamental understanding that parents must accept, in order for their kids to have a chance to do well in this country.   Otherwise they’re just rolling the dice, in a probability game with very, very, long odds (as I’ve seen with the kids of my co-workers, other than the immigrants).
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“I wasn't pushed at all for four years, by which point I was hopelessly lazy and absolutely dependent on a calculator for all but the most basic of sums.”
I showed this line to my kid…it is profound.  Once the pressure is taken off, then people have trouble (and often cannot) respond quickly once the pressure is again applied.  Teaching my kid through Saxon kept a constant level of pressure on him.  No ups and down, just a steady progression through pre-Calc.

Hi Poker Dad,

Sorry for not replying sooner.  I stopped getting comments over Labor Day, and didn't check back after that.

As to your questions:  I was able to get through Math 54 and Math 65 without an solution manual, but after that it was very nice to have.  As to an instructor manual, I never had one, and don't even know if they exist.  The solution manuals worked well enough for me.

We only used the old hardcover books (rather than the newer ones, which are consumable), and no, he never wrote in them.  He just did his work on notebook paper.

Glad you're reading Dr. Sowell.  Two things to note:  (1)  The first is how thoroughly sourced his books are.  He doesn't make up stuff, like The Establishment does, and (2)  you'll see Columbine High School mentioned as a place where brainwashing takes place (Death Education, if you can believe it) - that was about 6 years before the shooting (when the book was first published)...were they messing with the kids' minds - who knows?

(p.s., my kid thinks that I turned people off here by coming out against Sight Words - if so, so be it - I'm not in this to make money or help others make money, I just state my observations, my methods, and my results)