Thanks DadDude,

Unless I am wrong - I believe we have a consensus that encyclopedic knowledge is possible.  Moving on to what order of information we should teach and how seems appropriate.
I have made the case for reading and math skills being the top two blocks on the organizational pyramid.  Many of the others will tend to follow basic curriculum prescriptions.
Not that we shouldn't enumerate them but they will differ depending...  Then it becomes a question of how to do it all effectively, something we are all neck deep in anyway.

However, I have skipped the top block on the pyramid.  If we were teaching a class this top rung, sine qua non, subject to be taught would be called "classroom management".
At home this top block on the pyramid I suppose should be tagged spiritual and/or behavioral values.  I have learned, the hard way, that unless children begin to learn self discipline
from their parents, or teachers, little in the way of education is going to happen.  Teaching self discipline translates into the ability to concentrate.  Concentration, the ability to
focus on a task until completion, is the major factor in accomplishing anything in learning, or life for that matter.  Learning to concentrate is more important than any other individual skill.
Anyway, this may all seem quite obvious to you and I don't know where I am going with this thread of thought but it has always been the first consideration to me over the years. 

I personally neglected it at first because my daughter made it seem so easy.  She was an intelligent cooperative child and because I had wide ranging interests and provided her lots of opportunities to share them with me she naturally picked up on them.  I would suspect many of you are in the same situation so you may never have paused to think about it either.

So let's assume you have an intelligent cooperative child, rather than a spoiled uncooperative child, what should we be doing in this first rung along the way to EK?  Again, since this seems to have developed naturally with activities that I engaged in with my daughter so that I have never paused to develop specific concentration games.  An important aspect of concentration is motivation.  Motivation is not necessarily enough to create concentration but without it there won't be any.  It is a skill (rather than a data base) but every skill has an informational content. 
How to do it, for example. 

Have you done anything specific to practice or develop skill at concentration?  This would differ widely depending upon age but any thoughts would be appreciated.

That is a good idea.  Those harnesses that go with a retractable rein for toddlers are really perfect. 
 Anyone know where you can get one online? 
A baby carrier sling would not really work I don't think.

Sixtine Charlotte,

I am doing a free online seminar on "Natural Memory Versus Trained Memory" Friday March 28 from 1-2 pm CST.  Email [email protected] to register. 
I am preparing a free eBook on the topic to give away to participants.  I hope you can participate.  It is open to anyone.

Sixtine Charlotte,

I have always been fascinated by your posts.  I firmly believe photographic memory can be taught.  I have a good memory but I am slow because I am so thorough.
Once I understand something and put it into a Trained Memory format for my students they can learn it lickedy split.  That is the hope of humankind, I think,
 the work of a lifetime can be passed on to a willing student in a heartbeat.

Mandab,

Actually reading at a 3-5 grade level is the point at which speed reading should be introduced.  By this time they have mastered and automatized their basic reading skills and are ready to expand them.  They don't have to be 3rd to 5th grade age just at that ability level.  Yes, when you read you subvocalize.  It is a fact.  That need not slow you down.  We train the brain to speed up the subvocalization process which works marvelously.  We do this by practicing following text accompanied by speeded speech.  Then we teach how to abstract information from a text without reading every word.  This takes some practice and a high level of comprehension.  If I highlighted the most relevant parts of a book for you then you could read it much faster with a high level of understanding.  That is the basic idea behind speed reading. 

That is actually a good topic for an online seminar.  I am starting to give these free seminars and usually put together a free eBook about the topic to go with it to give to the participants. I have two scheduled right now.  Friday March 22 from 1-2 pm CST we are doing "Formula for Guaranteed Success in any Subject".  Great insight into what guarantees learning. 

The following Friday March 29 from 1-2 pm CST I am doing "Natural Memory Versus Trained Memory".  You can memorize large amounts of information.  I go over the various systems and their pros and cons and how to get started.  If you want to register for either of these call 817 718 8822 or email [email protected].  There is no charge for the seminar or the eBook.

Speed Reading sounds like a really good topic to do after that.  What do you think?  I like topics where, in an hour, you can definitely give parents something they can implement.

Rivka,

Good for you!  I agree that all children can do this early reading and math.  Not all parents can teach it however.  So my hat is off to you. 
One thing I find neglected is that having achieved early reading and math and a child way ahead of others his age some parents hit the cruise control and just coast.
Reading and math are only the first square on the game board.  Very few materials will effectively tend to the needs of a kid way ahead of the curve. 
They are all designed for much older learners.  Also you get so much flack from the traditional education crowd. 
Have you had any run ins with those folks yet issuing dire warnings to you about teaching your child so early?

I really like what Cammie is doing with strings of operations.  She seems to be imaging with her fingers to some degree, do you think?

I have always wanted to learn calculation with the abacus.  I bought one but really haven't dedicated myself to master it.

That's why your experience is so invaluable.

By the way, when you reverse operations PokerDad, you don't have to rewrite the problem just start at the bottom and go back up.

Glad that helped.  So many of the most useful techniques are really simple.

 One reason I like this forum is that there are so many good ideas I haven't thought of or used.

Chris1,

You clearly have a lot of knowledge and experience with mnemonics and trained memory.  It works.

T Hen,

Thanks for the feedback on your success with the Jones Geniuses Math program.  Ultimately any program works only if the parent does a good job of implementing it so kudos to you for doing it so well.

The latest versions of JG Math, which came out in the past few months, especially Early Learning Matrix Math and Threshold to Reading, Math Three and Math Five are very professionally done, a big improvement. 

Speaking of math techniques it is true that some things make a better demonstration than others. You cannot have a lot of dead time in a public demonstration, people start looking out the window and lose interest.  Nonetheless, we do not neglect the less glamorous skills needed to master mathematics.

In Math Eight your kids will be introduced to Equation Master the test they have to pass to get their Equation Master ribbon.  They must solve 100 equations in 30 minutes, 45 minutes for pre-teens.  This test consists of mastering the ten basic types of equations in algebra and geometry and utilizes all of the rapid calculation skils they have learned.  An algebra teacher could not pass this test without being taught the rapid calculation skills your children have learned.  The criterion for passing is to get 100% correct twice within the time limit.  No electronic calculator is permitted.

I am always amazed that kids can actually do that!  I am also amazed at people who say that level of math skill is just a trick, or worse that it is not important.

Tanikit my heart goes out to you.  It is often a difficult decision to go the homeschooling route.  My input would be that schools, even many private schools although they are better, fall prey to the Social Suggestive Norm.  That means what they figure your child should learn at each stage of the game.  Normally the only thing lower than their objectives is the actual achievement resulting from their low expectations.  If you have 3 or 4 days a week you can do a much better job assuming you don't go by their methods, materials and objectives. 

We set up a non-profit institute for homeschoolers (jonesgeniuses.com) so they would have a transcript from a certified teacher the next time they have to go back into the system.  It helps.

Chris1,

It is totally appropriate to question whether the kids in the Jones Geniuses demo are a setup or not.  Number one we never claim the children can do any advanced calculation.  They can do the advanced calculations we teach them and we focus on the type of calculations they are most likely to use. 

Having said that, in every demonstration we allow the audience to choose numbers for the type of calculation problem we are demonstrating.   For example, if we are doing cube roots, a volunteer from the audience will be given a calculator and asked to multiply a two digit number to the third power.  They will give the six digit number and the children will (usually without pencil or paper) give the cube root, the number the audience member started with.

 Have they memorized all the cubes of the two digit numbers, about 100 six digit numbers?  I contend that is as fabulous a feat as being able to calculate them mentally but yhey have not memorized the answers and are actually calculating them.  It is fairly simple, obviously, if even a first grader can do it.  The real question is why cannot all children do this?   We are always careful to let people know what the children have memorized (a lot) and what they are calculating.  The fact is, the broader your foundation of known facts the more advanced calculations you can do with ease.

I would wager you cannot find anyone who has purchased our materials who thinks the demonstrations are staged because our materials teach their children how to do the same calculations you saw in the demo.  Any child who has worked with us can participate in a demo whether they have been with us two days or two years.  They are usually not specially selected.  Many are kids who have only a single semester of work with us.  The fact that they often make mistakes in a demo and are corrected by me is another means of knowing it is not faked.

Oftentimes in the demo we will explain or have a student explain exactly how they are able to do such a complicated calculation.  We also like to pose word problems so they can demonstrate the ability to use their mathematics ability in applications which demonstrate higher order thinking. 

In any case, I encourage you to question critically.  It leads to truth.  I have a lot of footage I need to put together and edit to give a more in-depth explanation of how we do what we do.  Your comments may have helped me to make that effort more of a priority.

I must protest the reference cited by Shichida, not the person who posted it just the path it proposes...

" Modern man is predominantly left brained; we use language and sequential learning to acquire knowledge. This is a tedious lengthy process. Left-brain based education clouds right-brain activity and the resultant student frustration contributes to dissatisfaction in the classroom." 

This is typical right-brain worship and it is predominant in the methods used in traditional education in the public schools which often demonize left-brain processes and exalt right-brain learning.  Left brain processing is equally crucial to thinking, reading, and learning as right brain processing.  If we changed the quotation to demonize the use of the right arm would it make sense to you to chop off your child's right arm?  Why would you want to excise half of your child's brain then?  If you think right-brain worship is the way to go just look at what it has done to public school achievement.

To continue, "Doctors and scientists became aware of the right brain through the emergence of people with ‘Savants’ syndrome. These people had tremendous memorization skills, generally termed photographic memory. Their ability to calculate complex equations was almost instant and correct. In short, they saw the world in terms of images and patterns. This is the domain of the right brain."

Savants are often extremely left-brained quite adept at memorizing bits of information or doing incredible calculations but less facile at putting the pieces of the puzzle together in a right-brained way.  I have done extensive study of savants over the years to glean their methods.  Many are quite unbalanced being intellectually compartmentalized in one area of skill or another.  Right brain processing would link up the information to allow higher order thinking to emerge from the foundation of facts learned.  Both the foundation of left-brain facts and the tip of the pyramid of right-brain higher order thinking are essential. 

Speed Reading is a great example.  Almost all extant methods will tell you to stop subvocalizing that this is a "bad" reading habit that adversely affects your reading.  This despite a mountain of data thqt early systematic phonics is the most effective way to teach reading.   Subvocalizing is hardwired into the nervous system, unless you are deaf.  By subvocalizing the words you access the sense of the word which is stored in your memory along with the sound of the word.  The sound and sense are linked in memory, find the one and you find the other.  A fair amount of experimental research has been done linking the sound and sense together.  Apparently you literally cannot avoid subvocalizing a word to access its meaning.  What you can do is sublimate the process so that you are no longer aware of it.

I developed Speed Reading materials in a project with World Book Encyclopedia.  We computer enhanced the spoken text of a story by taking out every other bit of sound which made it much more comprehensible at high speed.  Listeners who followed the text and speeded speech made incredible and immediate gains in their reading speed within minutes.  On average more than 100 wpm gain in speed even when reading material unassisted after the brief training.  Students who continued practice with the speeded speech increased their speed even more, generally two or three times what their beginning rate was and maintained that ability longterm. Keep in mind that is only the first level of speed reading not the final outcome. Later one learns to abstract information from the text without reading every word.  Abstracting information is a right-brained skill, with the mastery of that skill speed can be practically unlimited.  Two halves of the brain are better than one.

 I have done the subvocalization experiment with many hundreds of readers by now.   I have the data if you are interested. This proves that working with the way the brain actually works, training the brain to speed up the subvocalization process, produces results far superior to forcing the brain to sublimate sounding out.  Sounding out is very left-brained.  Absorbing knowledge from reading at a high rate of speed is very right-brained.  Please resist those who say you should throw away half your brain.

Mom2bee,

By the way I did teach my daughter French and Spanish at a very early age and she now speaks both languages fluently.  So I know this is a really valuable effort.  Just be regular.  Do some every day.  I wish you fabulous success.  Good luck!

Mom2bee,

I spent a lifetime working in bilingual education.  Only about half the people teaching ESL overseas are credentialed but it helps.  Good luck with your education.

 I too was an early advocate of Esperanto.  The movement itself basically caved when they decided to hold their international conference in Esperanto and discovered to their chagrin that no speaks Esperanto.  Yes, I do know the other reasons, because it combines the basic root vocabulary of the European languages and simplifies the grammar.  However, English does this just about as well.  We have half our wordstock from Germanic roots (via Old English) and half from Latin roots (via French).   You might note that Esperanto has more endings for verbs than English does. 

English is a great language to start with because you can so easily move to learning Germanic languages or Romance languages because of our wordstock.  My first recommendation is that if one or more parents are bilingual don't waste it.  By all means, teach that language to your child.  Second, all kids should at some point do some serious study of Latin and Greek roots which are used to formulate all new scientific terminology which are universally used in every country in the world.  Finally, numberswise, English, Spanish and French were the great colonial powers and each language is spoken in more than 40 countries in the world.  Therefore, with only three languages you can speak the official language of half the 240 some odd countries in the world.  Not bad.

The most important element one can gain from a language in early childhood is the music of it.  I mean the sounds and pronunciation.  Grammar and vocabulary are actually learned better at a latter age because of our better mastery of our native language.  But pronunciation is better learned young.   Learn lots of songs, along with what they mean of course, but learn to memorize and sing as many songs in the foreign language as you can.  Theoretically a whole method could be developed to learn a language solely by learning and singing songs.  With the internet this is so much easier today and you do not have to be a fluent speaker yourself just be willing to sing.

I think the exposure to multiple bits of learning definitely makes a difference.  Yes, they should be easier to relearn or recall later on.  Even more important, exposure to a subject area even via bits of information make it more familiar and less threatening when approached later.  I think DadDude is right that kids who are brainiacs are not necessarily so just because they did EK  flashcards when they were infants.  Probably the more relevant causal factor is having parents that are focused on your education in an intelligent fashion.

This dialog parallels the historical development and recording of knowledge.  Once you get to a certain level the most important factor becomes how it is organized and categorized so that you can locate it and use it effectively.  Imagine a huge library with no cataloging system, just lots of books on lots of shelves with no order to it.  Not very effective.

The organization of the presentation of information is critical here.  Does anyone doubt that dumping massive bits of relatively unrelated knowledge on a child is not nearly as effective as an organized, well thought out approach?  What that organization of information should be is what I think we should discuss.  Any ideas?