This is lovely! Thanks a lot Tonya! xx

[strongly]

I read somewhere (I think it was John Holt's How Children Learn) that a child that knows how to do something  independently physically or intellectually, may go through periods EMOTIONALLY where they want/need reassurance that they can still depend on their parents to do that thing for them. It's the whole theory about how children (toddlers and preschoolers in particular) develop independence - not in a steady linear fashion, but in peaks and dips. It is (I believe this and practice is myself at home) important to support BOTH peaks and dips of independence in a child. Take swimming (or in your case reading), some days the LO may not want you to be even near and will swim off independently or refuse for you to even touch the book much less read it to them. Other days they may cling to you in the pool and refuse to get in independently when they didn't seem to have a problem last week. You can apply this to dressing, feeding, anything that was previously done by you for them or as a team. Sometimes they will need the emotional reassurance of doing things with you or you babying them for a bit. In my experience it strongly fosters independence to meet the child's peaks and dips. I have so deeply buried this in my heart that I don't even blink at the idea of meeting my son's needs (still breastfeeding and cosleeping at 2yrs for e.g.) and you really could not meet a more independent and resilient child. Let them take independence at their own rate, let it be an adventure they are in control of  and they will embrace it warmly.

I sometimes imagine a child being like a disabled adult, whether because they cannot communicate in words or have full physical dexterity and I feel a respect for their needs and opinions that I might not, if I didn't truly consider the child's personhood, only their youth. Sorry, I wondered off a bit there but hope you find something in this reassuring and helpful.

So I am hoping to homeschool DS at least through the primary years, however I have got him booked to start preschool this September for a few hours (3hrs, 2 days a week), by Jan 2014 if all is going well he'll go 9am  12pm 4/5 days a week (if I and he can handle the separation  ). Like TmT said, its not for academic reasons but for socialization (homeschool network activities tend to start from 5yrs old), and for me to have time to plan his learning, sort the house, and some me time. It's also to give me a feel of what 'school' might be like especially with regards to any negative socialization concerns. I think if he was going full time it would have to be a pretty amazing preschool.

I have to say though that DS is not shy at all even though is has never be cared for by anyone else other than his two parents, during church, swimming or toddler group, he is off like a shot, making friends (young and old) and only occassionally checking in with me for a quick kiss before he's off again. I am fairly Montessorian about him being independent so I doubt that I unwittingly mollycoddle/undermine his efforts to be independent. It is very hard to see another child playing roughly with your own, but unless it was dangerous I wouldn't remove Douglas from the situation, I might make a suggestion to him or the child about  how to approach their interaction but it's up to them. Importantly it's up to my son to learn how to say no or walk away or that's not nice or wait or be patient (all of which I have observed him say) that's an important part of developing emotional intelligence. But he learns how to interact in an intelligent way with people of all ages - preschool isn't necessary in my opinion but can serve various needs for parent and child. Be flexible about how you can make it work for you and your child. No need to be stressed all day every day with an active toddler while your pregnant ((hugs))

So Jim Trelease author of The Read Aloud Handbook has some interesting thoughts on this. Here is a quote from his website (which is excellent by the way if you don't have the book)

I recall two complaints given to me at seminars: A mother arguing that Gone With the Wind should not be included in a fourth-grade classroom and another who urged that Snow Falling on Cedars should not be made part of the eighth-grade core curriculum. I agreed with both parties, not from a moral standpoint but from a curriculum standpoint. Both books were written with adult audiences in mind, including a writing structure, historic perspective, and subject matter that are not within the normal range of development for children in those respective grades. By heaping those books on children at those ages, we run the risk of boring or drowning them with the book, neither of which helps us raise lifetime readers—the ultimate objective of schooling.

It has been made more than obvious that exposing children to the classics before they can handle them has NOT resulted in either higher reading scores or higher sales for classics, so why would someone think these two adult novels will do that? There's more than enough room for these books in the home or the school/public library. (The eighth-grade Cedars choice smacks of secondary teachers who personally prefer reading "adult" over "young adult" literature and probably would opt to teach on the college level anyway.)

From this link http://www.trelease-on-reading.com/censor_entry.html

He writes a lot in his book about growing male readers (tips like they should if possible see their fathers reading) and other tips like using teletex when the tv is on, and importance of comics and series like Enid Blyton books in creating people who see themselves as life long readers. It all made sense to me. Yes, I am currently trying to introduce Douglas to Beatrix Potter and Winnie the Pooh (original AA Milne version) and after months of looking at the pictures with him he's starting to be interested in the stories, but I wouldn't be put off letting him read TinTin comics or anything by Enid Blyton whose books I loved as a child. Seeing yourself as someone who loves to read is not just about your ability to comprehend more complex language structures in classics, it's about having a burning desire for a good book! And that should not be sensored at all I don't believe, maybe managed in terms of quantity (e.g. by having a rich library and fixed selections for home/after school reading), but not sensored. An extension of loving books could be wanting to write your own, and if a child is going to be a young author they are unlikely to write a classic novel, but a highly imaginative children's book/play, so reading widely is helpful in exposing them to differently types of stories.

About TV, we only have a DVD player at home, but we certainly as parents consume a lot of tv on the internet. I do especially, but I really am interested in the script, the cinematography sometimes, and even in analyzing the breadth of programming on the BBC sometimes  I used to love deconstructing adverts from a psychological perspective. I think film can be very interesting and used to tell very interesting stories in very interesting ways. Yes this includes cartoons (hello Pixar!) and foreign film (I don't even always need subtitles!). So whilst I am not against film, I do agree that screen technology can have an addictive effect on children so I rather Douglas did other things with his time than stick his nose in a screen at the tender age of 2. As he gets older I won't restrict what he wants to see in a cinema or family film night as long as its age appropriate.

I searched the word Soroban on the forum and have been getting a deep education from Tom (user Soroban), Chris1, Pokerdad (amazing book review) and others. Any parent relatively new to the topic NEED to do this!

I have found a few soroban schools within driving distance in the UK (franchises though), this one in particular looks interesting http://www.ucmasuk.info/Contact/centres.aspx they accept student from 4years old, the other previously mentioned here was Aloha but I wasn't too impressed by the one example they showed. Any feedback from those more experienced on the curriculum used by ucmas uk would be much appreciated!

I remember aangeles and her DD making very good progress with Anzan. Just wondering TmT what your ideal path to math would be, I mean would you start with RS Math / Miquon / Mathtacular/ JG  and then transition to Abacus, THEN after the 2/3 years to fully visualise the abacus move on to Saxon math? I wonder 1) because of the cost  would be great to cut out some expense if possible and 2) age of readiness - would the aforementioned programs help get the child ready for the abacus training?

Thanks for the links, it reawakened my interest in the abacus esp reading the broader benefits it gives kids mentally.

Sorry to hear you and the LOs are poorly    Hope you all get better soon ((((hugs))))

Big thanks for the videos! If that's what they call right brain flashing then WOW, and Shichida are the experts at this stuff. I try to use flashing with LM but way slower than this. And it can be a bit of a challenge keeping Dougie engaged although at the minute he's into it because he's trying to teach himself math addition/subtraction facts, with a little help from me   Would you suggest speeding up the flash rate and see how he responds? His frustration with it seems to be that he hasn't enough time to proces at the current speed so not sure how he'll feel about lightening fast  no harm in trying I suppose.

That final scene in The War on Kids has me really upset. Just why on earth...

Was nice seeing Gatto and Holt.

Nee1 have you read this?:

http://www.channel4.com/programmes/child-genius/articles/testimonial-from-williams-mother

Here is a quote:

Lynn Goldstraw writes about her four-year-old son, William, recalling the early signs of his sharp mental ability and her decision to move him out of the state sector and into private education.

I used to read to William from when he was just a few months old. As he got older, I would point at the words as I read to him. From an early age way before he could talk, I could go through an ABC 123 book and ask William where items were and he would point to the picture, which I thought was quite amazing. When he was one, he could easily count to 20 and he knew his alphabet.

From 18 months at nursery, William 'could read all the children's names on the pegs'

When he had his three-year assessment instead of playing with the baby toys that were given to him, William was reading the posters on the wall. The assessor could not believe it, and said that what William already knew was being taught to six and seven-year-olds. She considered William to be a gifted child. This was the first time I'd heard this term used to describe William.

William did enjoy being in reception for a couple of weeks but then was bored again. Even the teacher said that she did not think he was getting anything out of it anymore.

'At three years of age he had the reading age of a seven-year-old'

I took it upon myself to get William tested to see if there was another problem that maybe I was not aware of. The tests showed that at three years of age he had the reading age of a seven-year-old and that he was two years above his age in other areas. The results put him in the top 2% which qualified him to join Mensa. I gave a copy of the report to the school and asked if William could join the reception class full time. They said no.

Yet they make it out to be a mystery why he is so advanced. I will so be considering having Douglas join Mensa in another year or so 

Absolutely second that Nee1, I am in the middle of that video on his website even though its like 1.30am - fascinating! Would love to know more from those who've more experience with RC.

I can't really add much more that the really good thoughts that have been contributed, but I guess I fall under the category of a teacher who wants to homeschool (only just qualified then stopped teaching to raise my son, so I don't have as much direct experience of the school system as a teacher who'd been in schools for years - but I did go through one of the best teaching programmes in the UK so I do have some exposure to the system at various levels). I am in the UK and I am sure there are differences, but my perspective on schooling was negatively impacted by the teaching strategies that I saw being used *especially* in Ofsted rated Outstanding schools - namely teaching to the test. So even in the best schools, that achieve excellent results, the very structure of school i.e. periodic tests that determine what set (higher ability, lower ability, average) and final certified grades at fixed times, means it is very difficult to use the most effective learning methods (I believe to be the didactic/socratic method or what Charlotte Mason calls narration) MOST of the time - because knowledge ultimately has to be graded, it needs to be packaged in a gradable format. This is where I suspect some of the best private schools may have a clear advantage to Outstanding state schools - they exist for a totally different reason. State schools outstanding or not, seem to exist to hand of pieces of paper students can then use to get hopefully better pieces of paper called certificates. Some of these elite private schools though, seem to me, to exist to imbue the learning that shapes 'natural' leaders in almost all fields. There is a very clear difference in the workings that take place in various educational institutions.

I do not want my son to see learning as being about qualifications. I want him to see life and beauty and wisdom of the ages, and connect in deep appreciation with the people that shared them with us. So that he too may connect with his inner creativity and learn how to bring his visions into reality. This is why I thought I wanted to be a teacher - but I was told that I'd have better chances of having this sort of teaching experience in private school than in state school  and they were right. That's not what state schools are about - they don't have the budget to measure how visionary their pupils are becoming 

So I am hoping to homeschool my son through the primary years, so I can share my way of seeing life with him, then he can choose what he wants to do after that. I have to say, I agree with other's suggestion to just EL as much as you can, it has worked for me too in getting my husband to even be open to me homeschooling - no one can really argue with results. It is like asking someone to imagine and have feelings about an alien - they cannot unless they've studied it like you've studied EL! I appreciate the challenges Linzy raised in afterschooling (I can see them being challenges for me personally) but if you are a Tiger Dad I'm sure you'll be fine 

PS Definitely stay breezy with PokerMom while discussing EL, use humour often, so when the time comes she has a comfortable way of changing her mind without feeling like she is losing face. Keep up the good work! You got me swimming with Dougie after we watched Pokercub's video together 

As usual responses that give me alot to think about. Tried to see if I could download it to upload on Youtube with no luck, will have to do a bit more digging, there might be an indirect way of getting it to work.

I do want a better (read more stable and more options) life for my son and I guess it would be naive not to acknowledge that this means him having access to people from wealthier backgrounds than I or my husband grew up in. I just don't want him to become a narrow-minded snob - but I guess that it down to my parenting as much as his educational environment. At this present time, I am thinking of homeschooling through the primary years (until 11/12 years of age) - maximizing on our EL gains and accelerating his education as much as I can (while developing individual skills and talent - this is really why I think HS would be good for these years - I can spend necessary amount of time on this without academics dropping behind), and then letting Douglas choose how he wants to complete the rest of his education (i.e. in private, boarding or homeschool), being at that age he should be able to give valuable input as to the best path and environment  to achieve his life goals as he perceives them.

Pokerdad, I'm quite intrigued as to why you feel its not usual for people to want to use their skills/resources to benefit those in their indigenous communities. Being African I suppose I know of quite a few people who leave excellent careers abroad to start social enterprises, schools, health initiatives etc back home. Granted its not always for purely altruistic reasons, I get that we all have needs that need to be met too. I guess I had hoped that if EL could be the source of a bit of social engineering, it might look like educated, whole hearted, extremely talented individuals putting the world to rights one community at a time If for no other reason, because the challenge is big enough to be really fun!

If I'm honest when I'm really busting my gut with EL (as I feel I am currently, trying to get a balance of finances and time management to provide Douglas with more structured Pre-K and Kindergarten homeschool experience) I think about him growing up to give all that back somehow. It kindda keeps me going, cos I feel like in parenting him so thoroughly I am doing my civic (not to mention spiritual) duty.


In case anyone doubted after some of the conversations we've had on this forum, maths is the single most consistent predictor of later academic achievement, according to recent research (Jan 2011) by Foundation for Child Development. It was found to have more impact in later years than antisocial behaviour and early reading (whether early readers or late readers):
http://fcd-us.org/sites/default/files/Brief%20on%20Academic%20Skills%20and%20School%20Readiness%20011311.pdf

Just as in the school-achievement analyses, math achievement emerged as the single most
powerful predictor of educational attainment. Children persistently scoring in the bottom end of
the math distribution were 13 percentage points less likely to graduate from high school and 29
percentage points less likely to attend college.  But while school-entry reports of anti-social
behavior problems were not predictive of later school achievement, Table 2 shows that persistent
behavior problems were indeed correlated with lower attainment. Surprisingly, persistent early
reading problems were not predictive, nor were persistent attention problems.

This is why EL is so important to understand properly. It's much more than helping your child read early. So if anyone needs encouragement on their EL journey, pls know that what you are doing is the best insurance against any negative influence derailing a child's chances of leading a successful life.

I took my son swimming today (inspired by Pokerdad to get going) and he had an absolute blast, refused to get out of the pool. Any way he had on arm discs and was really trying hard to swim after his lesson (during which he impressed the swimming instructor and other moms  ), we saw this little girl with no arm bands jumping into the water gleefully and I pointed out to him that she didn't have any arm bands on. I was in the middle of praising this young girl (almost three yrs old) to her and her mom, when Douglas started chanting "Effort! Effort! Effort!" while smiling and swimming hard. The mom and I burst into laughter and she said, "yes, well at least you're making a big effort." I couldn't have been any prouder! I've worked hard to develop Carol Dweck's growth mindset in my son, and I saw today that he got it! 

I have felt your pain too, and I applaud you for coming to the forum for support.  My oldest was a "late" reader at 3.5.  I have been on this forum for about 4 years now (weird, right?), starting when he was 1.5.  It almost hurt sometimes to see all the other tiny children reading.  I was so happy for them, but sad because I really wanted my son to be able to do that as well.  My difference was that I was trying to do a phonics-only approach, and it wasn't until I came out with it on the forum ( actually it was the yahoo group) that I finally realized I needed to shake things up.  "When in Rome", or in other words if you want an early reader, do what everyone else with an early reader is doing.  So I invested in YBCR and almost overnight he was reading.  He is now 5.5 and comfortably reading chapter books.  I do think that the reason it all came together so quickly is because of all of the other early learning stuff I had done.  It wasn't until my third child that I have had the chance to say, "My baby is reading!"  I'm more active on the forum now too.  I guess I'm more secure now.

Everything you are doing is making a difference.  There were times that I doubted myself, especially with my first.  My extended family was not as supportive then as they are now.  Then I was telling educational theories, now I'm showing them the results of it.  It's hard to argue against success.  Some day your family will see that.  Hang in there!

My oldest couldn't read, but he did have very precise diction.  He spoke remarkably well for a toddler, with a rich vocabulary.  I sloughed it off because I knew he could be reading and he wasn't.      But now, looking back, I recognize that I did give him all of the benefits of EL even though my 2nd and 3rd kids were earlier readers.  With Peter (oldest), I realize now that the reason he spoke so much clearer than the other two is because his phonic reading lessons were essentially diction classes.  As a vocal performance major (music), I took three semesters of diction, I know the International Phonetic Alphabet, and I tried to teach my son to read English the same way I learned to read German and Italian.  (I never did really get French).  Don't ask me to translate, but at least I can pronounce it!  Anyway, I did that with my oldest and I haven't with my second two.  I will do more of that in the future.  This is an "aha" moment I didn't have until a month ago.  His vocabulary was good because I read to him a lot and did bits of intelligence cards with him.  Those cards are getting dusty.      I just don't have as much one-on-one time with my younger kids as I did with my oldest. There aren't enough hours in the day, and I'm spread between 4 kids, but I do what I can and it will have to be good enough.  Luckily I have accumulated some products over the years to help me, especially the BK trio.

We do tend to report our successes more than what we aren't achieving.  Let me report what I'm not doing, that's a good idea.

My kids aren't bi-lingual.  My son loves telling people he can speak Spanish because he can say hola, no, and 1-6.    My kids aren't physically superb.  Sure we have a crawling track and brachiation ladder, but they are mostly just for play at this point.  My 7-month-old isn't traveling on her hands and knees yet.  My almost 4-year-old is having a l major lapse in her potty-training, even though it was my research into infant potty training that led me to do other early learning stuff.  She went in the potty the day she was born and has plenty of opportunities, but my oldest have "graduated" from diapers the same age, if not older, from their peers.  Like I said, she's having a lapse.  Frankly I don't care anymore.  Potty training is a skill that you get and then it's done, you don't really continue to progress.  I would rather spend my efforts teaching reading to my little ones than cleaning "misses" off the floor all day like I did with my first.  I still give regular "pottytunities" to my 7-month-old, but she's in diapers all of the time, and I don't do cloth all the time anymore either, only half the time if that.  My kids can't swim.  They don't color very well.  Peter writes poorly for a kindergartener.  My 2-year-old bites.  (Help!).  Luckily it has only been immediate family. 

There are plenty of things my kids can't do.  EL has given them a big leg up on the things I have done, and they are great kids.  My dad melted my heart during the holidays when he told me they are exceptional.  But I do understand that when we report our successes on this forum we are usually putting our best foot forward, which is totally understandable and just fine.  It's wonderful to be validated.  Lets support each other and rejoice in each others successes.  Raise the bar for ourselves.  But do it because you are inspired, and know that there are plenty of other kids who are right where your child is at, on this forum and even in your play ground.  It's not a competition, it's parenting.

Tamsyn, I want to put you in a drawer in my house and pull you out when I need advise/encouraging words. Like my own personal genie 

I went through a similar stage with my son, he loves reading and being read to now, though I'm still learning how best to introduce new books to him. At that age books are kinddda meant to be chewed in love  Try to get lots of touch and feel textured books, books with mirrors or finger puppet of flaps, book that do stuff basically. Wordless picture books are also good as well as single concept books for baby related images you can talk about. It' great if you can get them to see books as toys.

I like the idea of maybe doing a thread on all the stuff our kids AREN'T learning, because it can be overwhelming to only hear of successes. Give what a financial, emotional and time investment EL can be is it understandable to want so see some kind of evidence that what we have so lovingly put in is doing what it should.

Two things, for whatever they're worth ... we are ultimately teaching babies and so therefore they are going to take QUITE a long time to learn. Baby students need gentle handling so their baby egos are not hurt (I really believe they can sense our disappointment, I believe that's why my DS does not like being wrong - I've started teaching him to experiment/try again/be patient etc). Basically it's a long game we're playing, so ALWAYS think of your end goal - it's not to have a reading toddler - it's to have a young person who loves to learn and finds it easy to do so. My DS has completely gone of the WHOLE BK series  but I'm not worried. We're doing other bits and he should miss it if we take a long enough break that it feels like an old friend. I guess what I'm saying is enjoy your baby, enjoy yourself, and go with a bit of the unschooling philosophy - follow their interest, offer them various bits of knowledge and see which they go for, allow/encourage/join in with their obsessions and whet their appetite by giving them real life experiences that they'll later want to read about (although I appreciate this is not always possible).

My second and last point is a bit of a practical one, a tip that has worked for us, my son Douglas has not much else to compete for his attention. We do not have regular TV, so he only watches his DVDs or listens to music. He loves music and that is what he does on the ipad mostly (that youtube!) french comptines, nursery ryhmes, EL songs, African music, then he starts discovering stuff like Charlie and the numbers on his own    All books and toys are educational or musical (we have tried to go for a Montessori-esque setup) and now that he has learnt how to use the laptop he moves between Destination Math, Reading Eggs, Starfall and ABCMouse.com (though I don't like that last one so much and plan to let the subscription go in a month or so, but he loves it and learnt to use a trackpad because of it.) My point is I guess kids are human, and may gravitate towards comfort/ease if allowed. Just my thoughts pls take what is useful and disregard the rest.