Hi Joha

Yes, LM is out of the question for us too.  DD also says no as soon as we start.  I am missing the structure of being able to work through both programmes during breakfast and finding it more difficult to get into a regular maths routine now.

I think it sounds like you are doing great - I would not worry too much as your daughter seems to be making lots of progress!  Counting in two languages is really impressive.  I agree it is hard to move up to numbers over 20 - the youtube videos are not so fun after 20 - I find them quite uninspiring for the higher numbers. I might start trying to teach her some skip counting next, using beads on the numicon board.

I have been quite inspired by the recent thread about teaching via the RightStart Abacus method and I'm now swaying towards this as our next step (of course it will not be for some time yet - maybe even a year away).  I liked the idea that actually needing to count too much is not necessarily an advantage in maths, and it is more important to be able to conceptualise numbers in blocks of 5 and 10 and that this enables highly complex calculations of much larger numbers. 

Anyway, whether we do go down this route or not, it has helped me to de-stress a bit about our counting progress!

The numicon that i bought was the first steps at home package:  http://www.numicon.com/resource_overview/numicon-kits/1st_steps_with_numicon_at_home_kit.html

We only have one dice so far (it's really big!) with dots - I might buy one or two more.  Because it's about the size of a football, we tend to just throw or kick it around the room!!  I'll be interested to hear how you get on with yours.  Also, i like the sound of the matching game that you mentioned - I might be able to make something similar.

Let me know how your progress goes.  I hope you are feeling well and not too tired.

Hi Momtobaby

I think we are at a very similar place!  Sorry, I probably should have put a bit more detail in my original post.  We do have the Classical baby 3-pack and I also really strongly recommend it.  My DD and I both love it.  The music and the animations are really lovely. 

We also work on the brillkids basic music lesson and musical instruments.  We started using them a few weeks ago.  She loves these so much and always asks for "music" as soon as I turn on the computer.  She's started singing along to some of these and I've noticed that she is more and more in tune recently when singing other songs (e.g. twinkle twinkle little star - I got up this morning and could hear her singing to herself in her bedroom this morning - so cute!)  So we cannot wait until Little Musician comes out.... (we are hoping soon please please please  )

We have the Trebellina DVD as well which is great.

I will have a look at Mozart for accelerated learning - sounds interesting!  And I love the sound of the Tune Toddlers - it's just is is so expensive @ $30 for one CD

I did try listening to background classical radio but found that we both tended to just tune it out as just that - background.  I was never sure if that was all that helpful or not.  I'd really like to play a few classical pieces to help us both to get to know the structure of the music and improve our listening abilities.  We have music time in the car when going from place to place.  So any advice on some easy 'starter' composers and pieces by anyone who is knowledgeable about classical music would be great.

Like you, our future plans are also Suzuki classes or maybe PW / SM too.  But I'd like to focus on developing her ear and rhythm first, before she needs to worry about coordination of an instrument as well.

Hi Mum

Thanks so much for your helpful reply.  I had a look at the RightStart program and it looks GREAT!!  It is still a little way off for us but I actually really enjoy planning ahead and thinking what our learning methods will be over the next 12 months or so.  I definitely think we will give this a try.  I have been looking for more physical methods of teaching maths and this looks like a very accessible and straightforward start to the abacus, which will suit us both (as I know nothing about the abacus either).  I am very convinced!!

I was really struck reading the background information about how the Japanese teaching methods put far less emphasis on counting.  It mentioned that when you ask a Western child to add 9 and 4 that they will often start to count from 9 upwards.  I noticed that is exactly what I was doing in my own mind!!  Whereas a Japanese child would use a mental abacus to group the numbers into 5s and 10s to make it easier (add a 1 to the 9 and deduct a 1 from the four so that you have 10 plus 3 which is much easier to calculate without needing to count).

This also makes me feel more relaxed about needing to worry so much about constantly working on counting.  Of course it is important, but maybe we focus on this too much in the West in some ways.

Thanks again - I'm really sold by this idea and looking forward to starting working with it when the right time comes 

Has anyone used this program?  http://www.mathabacus.com/index.html

The books look very interesting (although a bit too advanced for my DD who is almost 2).  Any feedback would be great!

We mainly listen to TMBG in the car - really great fun.

We are having fun with throwing the foam dice and shouting out the number (although DD tends to shout random numbers for fun!).  Also Cheerio maths has proved extremely popular  We have a mat with numbers and animals on at the dinner table and we use cheerios to feed the different animals (e.g. 5 ducks -so we feed them one Cheerio each and then she can eat them).

Numicon arrived last week so it's a bit early to give much of a review but DD really seems interested in it.  In fact she keeps getting it out and asking to play with the board, pieces and beads.  I was impressed with the kit so far, it seems very relaxed and there are lots of ideas for games and progressive activities and how to take things forwards over time.  We are starting just by playing with the different shapes and placing them on the board.  She can only concentrate for a few minutes but I'm sure we will be able to build this up and then be able to start to work on patterns and more complex shapes.She also enjoyed the beads, which come with several threads and you can also use them on the board.  Although DD is probably more enthusiastic at the moment about throwing them all around the kitchen (we already have quite a few under the kitchen cabinet) than being particularly constructive - I'm hoping this phase will pass. There is also a CD of music songs, I was not so impressed by this - I found it a bit annoying to be honest, but we will see how DD likes it.  I think there will be enough here to keep us going for a long time and it would compliment other approaches later on (e.g. when she becomes ready for workbooks, although I don't think this will be very soon).

I also noticed from another thread that some people are using the site http://www.ixl.com/  This might be the next step for us to try but again not for another few months (there is a free version if you only do a few questions each day).  If anyone has tried this, I'm interested in how their little ones actually used the site - it seems like you need quite sophisticated mouse / keyboard skills?

Joha - how are you getting along?

My DD has become so excited by music in the last few months.  It is so wonderful to see her getting so enthusiastic and she really enjoys all kinds of different music.  I play all types of music, from world music to classical. 

Unfortunately I know very little about classical music and I'm reaching the limits of my knowledge already!!  We've been playing all four of the Beethoven's Wig CDs, and I also play various best of classical CDs (which are not always very inspiring). We worked our way through all four movements of Vivaldi's four seasons and she loves that, especially now after she has heard it many times.

Can anyone recommend any other classical pieces that are quite accessible (both for me and DD!).  There is so much music out there - I just don't know where to start!

Thanks for all this information about the Tune Toddlers CDs, teachingmytoddlers, I am really interested in them although they are quite expensive!  I hope there's a possibility of a group discount for members of the forum!

thanks lzp11 for the input.  It is definately nice to see domanbabies come back.  It is true that you can't credit all the success to one program but every little bit helps and more importantly its parents progressive and continous involvement with their child throughout their education that helps a lot. 

Ariel I completely agree with you.  I hope I did not sound too negative about Doman - I try to be balanced and look at all sides / possibilities - but I do believe in the approach very much (hence I am here and working with my daughter using LR!).  I  I think I wanted to just emphasize that I believe it is so much more than the programme itself that is important.  I believe that we as parents are the real key, in our attitudes and enthusiasm towards learning, and that this has as much, if not more value than individual techniques, particularly in how our children decide to use their new skills and knowledge.  Programmes like LR, offer a great opportunity to talk and learn together with children, and I love this.  Teaching to read is the first key step, but then of course sharing an interest in literature and knowledge that you can then gain through reading is how that translates to lifelong learning.

Oh, I forgot to mention, I also found this site which might help with perfect pitch training.  It is a bit advanced for us but I'm hoping to start using it soon.  It is a Montessori Bells free internet based program for discrimination of musical sounds by pairing and ordering, developing pitch identification:

Montessori bells online: http://mbells.sourceforge.net/

I am not a very musical person but I am totally convinced of the benefits of early music teaching!  My dd is 22 months now and we are not doing any formal music programmes so far (but we are waiting with baited breath for Little Musician...!!!)

 The things we have done so far (as well as a few things that have already been mentioned):

- Going to a weekly “sing and sign” and class that I think is based on Kindermusik.  We’ve been going since DD was only 4 months and she LOVES it!  I find it great because the teacher is amazing – really enthusiastic.  We have different instruments to play every week, as well as dancing, singing and sign language.  The real benefit of this was that I learned a range of great songs that were really relevant to day to day life and things that she thought were important e.g. about changing nappies (diapers), getting clean and dirty, different food and milk.  I used the signing as well and that was also really great way for communicating.  As time has progressed, we have moved on to more complex songs and signs.  I’m sure you could also find this on DVD but I would recommend going to a group class if you can - it has also built her confidence in playing with other children and is a really fun part of our week.
- Beethoven’s wig CDs – we love these and play them in the car along with a whole range of other classical and other types of music.  I found that she prefers music that she’s been able to get to know well.  So I chose one track from Beethoven’s wig and played it three times a day for a week or so (alternating the track with the words with the one without words).  We would get out a drum and beat the rhythm, or clap or dance – getting really excited about it.  This idea is not mine – I got it from this great blog website:  http://www.childandme.com/ideas/teach-your-child/music/
- Putamayo kids CDs  - I love this range of world music children’s songs and exposing her to music from Latin America, Africa and the Caribbean.  These are all really lovely CDs.
- Singing all the time, including making up songs to fit day to day situations with silly words
- Steady beat – playing percussion instruments along to various music tracks, or even tapping her
- In the car we get to know a wide range of music by listening to each Cd several times (e.g. we’ve listened to opera, classical, salsa, etc etc)
- Dancing together to different types of music
- Classical baby DVDs – these are not formal music training but they have a great soundtrack and some nice gentle animations showing babies and other animals dancing, really clever and I enjoy watching as well!   I was way more impressed than with any of the baby Einstein DVDs  http://www.amazon.co.uk/Classical-Baby-Pack-Region-NTSC/dp/B0009WPKYA/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1297628882&sr=8-2
- Playing with her toy piano and xylophone
- I play basic piano but really badly - I know I should re-start learning as a good example but I'm always so short of time.  In the meantime, I have dug out my old guitar and play this to her quite often.  I'm pretty useless with this too but the good thing is that you can use a guitar as an accompaniment to many many songs.  In fact, most nursery rhymes only need about 3 chords so you do not have to be particularly proficient to have fun.  I just think any kind of live music is great.
- I record some classical music programmes from the TV (e.g. various operas and concerts) and play in the background when we are playing at home.  She often looks at the different solo instruments and we talk about which ones they are.  This sometimes makes her go across to the guitar and ask me to get it out.

DD  has certainly seemed to have developed a love of music.  She often sings to herself or asks for music (either by signing or saying the word).
But I’m a bit unsure now about the next steps.  I don’t think she is ready for formal instruments yet.  I would like to sing solfege and show the hand signals but I’m not confident and don’t want to get it wrong.  Can anyone recommend a good youtube video that might help?

For medical reasons I had to have a planned caesarian delivery but I still had skin to skin contact with my baby almost immediately after birth and was breast feeding her within 30 minutes.  The paediatrician took her for about maybe 3-4 minutes (but in the same room) to check she was breathing well and had no other problems.  They then brought her straight back to me to hold.  I was feeling tired but not so drowsy that I could not hold her.  Having an epidural and not a general anaesthetic helped with this.  There was a moment or two that I felt a bit light-headed and shaky and I was scared I would drop her so my husband held her for a couple of minutes until I felt better (I thought this was really great for early bonding for them too).

She stayed with me from that point onwards all the time until I left hospital after 3 days.  The hospital had a great cot which attached to the side of my hospital bed and meant that I could pull her gently towards me and pick her up to feed her for myself, even after having had an operation.  It also helped to have a breast feeding specialist nurse in the ward who helped us overcome a few early problems.

I am from the UK and I think nowadays it is very rare for babies to be taken away from mum unless they are really poorly.  I'm not even sure they have nurseries any more, just the special care units for very ill babies.  One thing that can help is to plan beforehand what you would like and just insist on it throughout being really clear about what is important for you.  Do you have birth plans as a routine?  This can be a great way of thinking about what different issues might arise and how your daughter would prefer to deal with them.  Because people are so exhausted during the delivery, it can be difficult to think clearly so can be good to plan in advance.  For example here is a UK birth plan site:
http://www.nhs.uk/Planners/pregnancycareplanner/Pages/BirthPlan.aspx  But I would also recommend thinking about a range of different possibilities, because of course, you can never be 100% certain what issues might arise during a delivery, and need some flexibility / being prepared for the unexpected. 

I was always very clear in my own mind that I wanted skin to skin contact as early as possible and to try to breast feed as soon as possible.  I thinkthey'd have had to drag my dd away from me if they'd tried to put her in a nursery   

Wow! A doman-baby! You're probably about to become something of a celebrity on these boards, because a lot of the parents are anxious to hear from someone who's been "through ALL the paces".

Would you mind telling us a bit more about your school days? Do you feel like you benefited from early reading in any special way?
Where you "advanced" or "ahead" in school? What was the transition like for you when you went to school?
Did your mom do other programs with you and if so which ones?
Do you plan to do more with your daughter than your mom did? (ie reading AND math or reading AND EK)

I’m not sure I’m quite so interesting as all that!!    Plus I don’t suppose it’s possible to generalise too much from one child to another.   

My mum did Doman reading in quite a relaxed way with me – it was all about fun and spending time together really.  I don’t remember any sense of ‘learning’.  We didn’t do anything other than the reading and some maths books later (but nothing to do with Doman style teaching).

I think probably the biggest impact was that I was a reading addict for most of my childhood (but I’m sure many children are).   I read very fast (and still do) – I was allowed double the quota of books from our local library because I went so often!  I remember reading quite a range of literature – I remember several times the librarian checked that my mum was happy for me to take out certain books because of my age.   I think this gave me a strong feel for the English language, and I learned a lot through reading fact and fiction books.   I probably had a better vocabulary than a lot of my friends (but I also had two brothers who were a lot older than me and I spent a lot of time talking to them).   I should add that I was not stuck at home all day reading - I still did lots of other activities / sports as well!

In my primary school, the other children took it for granted that I was ahead in reading, but I’m not sure the teachers really noticed!  It didn’t seem to make much difference, or at least I didn’t notice.  I suppose I was in the advanced English group, but it was all very low key. 

I guess I did quite well at school, I became a medical doctor in the end.  But I’m not sure you could give Doman the credit as so did my older brother, who did not do any early reading programme.  It is quite difficult to filter out the impact of having parents who valued education, reading and learning, against that of the reading programme itself.

As an aside, I remember reading in Freakonomics that the children of people who have a lot of books in their home tend to read better and have higher scores, even if you control for socio-economic status, but there was little evidence of benefit of purely reading to a child every day (e.g. at the library).  I thought that was really interesting (although how true it is, I am not certain).  But if so, perhaps it is something to do with the fact that our kids will mimic us and learn from what we do as much as what we say or try to teach them.  So on this basis, I personally try to read as much as I have time for (not so much these days) and talk to my dd about the books that I’m reading, whether it is a medical journal or a fiction book.  My parents both read a lot and had books piled everywhere!

Anyway, as I said, I’m as much motivated by building a bond with my dd through a shared love of reading, and learning, as much as any specific outcomes that may or may not arise for her.  I’m really cautious of not making any assumptions.  Because something worked a certain way for me – that is all very individual and I have no clue if it would be the same for her – she is a new person!  I am interested in reading, also maths, languages and music, which I believe are all so important to stimulate young children.   I’m less excited by EK, as I’m not entirely convinced by the benefits of memorizing information (never really worked for me).

I am an ex Doman baby!

My mum taught me to read many years ago (don't ask me the exact date!) using home-made flashcards.  I think it was quite an unusual thing to do in those days so I'm really proud of her as she had no online support like I do and yet she did it so well.  She made her own simple kit based on words I was interested in and she says I could pick out words before I could talk.  I think I was reading independently by about 3.  She is quite amazed by all the high-tech early learning options there are nowadays (YBCR, LR etc)!  When I think about that it reminds me to keep things simple and fun and not try to do too much all at once.

Anyway, I always had a huge love of reading throughout my childhood and I was inspired to do the same with my own daughter.  Particularly because I had such a great relationship with my mother.  We became really close and I'm sure that early education was part of that.  She always believed in me, encouraged and supported but never pushed me and I do my best to show these qualities to my family too.

Hi Joha, i think we have quite similar issues at the moment and rather than resurrecting another post, I’ll hop onto yours if that’s OK!  My daughter is a little younger than yours and maybe you have already tried many things that we have yet to try.  She does also know to count up to 10 and read the numerals also up to 10.  I’m worried I might make her bored if we go over it too many times.

 If you have only two months to go before your next baby arrives, perhaps you are feeling a bit tired at the moment?  This can make it hard to remain relaxed and joyful about learning.  I am currently in early pregnancy (15 weeks) and feeling horrible!  This is making it quite tough for me to be relaxed and having fun with the learning programmes!  I’m sure my daughter picks up on this.

There are some really great suggestions here.  I have decided to try to relax and enjoy ourselves for a few months whilst looking for activities that spark an interest in maths.  I don’t think we are quite ready for worksheets yet.  Probably I’d personally love to follow a curriculum because it takes a bit of pressure off me to know what to do next when I feel unsure about what I’m doing / or “should” be doing (which is most of the time!) but I’ll try to let go of that for now!  I think I could end up spending a lot of money on something that we don’t really use.

My daughter loves music so I’m going to order a few musical maths DVDs.  I’ve ordered:
-  Here come the 123s by TMBG (Annisis – thanks for the post – I used to love these guys many years ago when I was at university and I remember seeing them live – I had no idea they produced kids music now – am REALLY excited to get the CD / DVD)
-  Fun with numbers: counting 1 to 10 http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1406650536/ref=oss_product
This is a BBC product – and was quite reasonably priced!  I also ordered their fun with phonics letter and reading packs.
-  Haven’t ordered yet but am thinking about Math to the moon

Other things I think I will try:
-   Counting food (always a good motivator).   I will probably try to just count it out as if that’s the normal thing to do (“OK, it’s time to count out the cheerios into your bowl...”) rather than highlight it as a learning activity.
-  Matching numbers of cheerios with dot cards / numerals (might be a way to move towards addition / subtraction).  A good breakfast game!
-  Counting my daughter’s fingers – she gets really excited about this!  We often sing the nursery rhyme 12345 once I caught a fish alive at the same time.  Think we might move onto her toes next
-  Counting as we walk up and down the stairs.  I might try to print out some numbers and bluetack them next to each step as we go up and down.  Counting backwards when we come back down might make it more interesting too.
-  I bought a big foam dice to see if she enjoys throwing it and looking at which number comes up (if so I’ll probably get another one).   Wasn’t entirely sure how to make it into a good game but maybe we’ll try jumping (whilst counting) out the number of dots that show on the dice.  We also have a mat with numbers on like hopscotch so could try running to the matching number on the mat?
-  Playing with our toy abacus.  It has numbers at the bottom and I sometimes ask her to choose a number that she likes.  I then count it out on one of the abacus rows as well (she gets to choose which colour row!).  I’m aware I’m not really using the full potential of an abacus here and wondering if we might be able to progress to simple addition and then subtraction. 
-  Using coloured cotton reels or beads: she enjoys playing with these in lots of ways (sorting into bowls by colour, threading onto a piece of string) and we can probably count as doing this.  I also thought about putting numbers into bowls and then counting out the correct number of beads on top.
-  I read that it’s a good idea to make different patterns with various identical objects and count each time so this might be fun (e.g. horizontally and then vertically and then in a cross shape) showing that the number stays the same
-  Bouncing a ball 1 to 5 times and counting each time (mixed in with general throwing rolling and other fun ball activities)

I still like a lot of the Montessori approach.  http://www.montessorimom.com/ has some good ideas.  Rather than buying a more expensive bundle, I’m wondering about getting a few key elements such as some number rods  although I’m not 100% sure what we’d do with them!  Maybe compare length, arrange into order (up and down).  I found a discount Montessori store (UK based) http://www.absorbentminds.co.uk/acatalog/Discount.html

Finally, as I am based in the UK, I am strongly thinking of getting the Numicon at home kit http://www.numicon.com/resource_overview/numicon-kits/1st_steps_with_numicon_at_home_kit.html  - it seems a very reasonable price and something we could work towards

This has made me very excited to get my daughter a balance bike for her 2nd birthday in a few months time.  Currently we have a skuttlebug which is a similar concept but with 3 wheels and she loves scooting around on it inside the house (great in winter to get some indoor activity), so I hope it will be a straightforward transition.
The Strider looks so lightweight and although expensive compared to some others, it looks great quality.
Also looking at some balance bike websites, I was some scary videos of toddlers crashing on tricycles so have certainly put off them!