Krista - If you do check out some of these books. let me know what you think of them. I am interested. And maybe we can just extend this discussion when done.

Andrea - I said this book can be hard slogging. That is why i put two weeks between chapters. For me, I have to read a few paragraphs and then go think about it and come back later for a few more.And I have read this book before....

@ Wolfwind, I was looking at reading "What Rohin Knows." Is it as good as the reviews?

Wolfwind,

I think you bring up a valid point in that people are built a certain way. I hesitate to go into this too deeply until you have read the book. My post from Capon has to be understood in the context of the first chapter of Poetic Knowledge. There is a quote in there from "Hard Times" by Dickens, and my post was in that context as both authors are talking about the same type of thing. You may certainly not be inclined to look at a flower for an hour. But if you had in informed guide to take you on a journey that would allow you to get to know that flower, I suspect that you would change your mind.    But to stare at it and not know what you are looking for is not up my alley either.

I think applying what we learn to our lives will come later in this discussion. The issue for now is to get our minds wrapped around what "Poetic Knowledge" is. And one can't use a simple definition to get you there. It really is a way of understanding the world that has been lost on most of us. But not on everyone. Here is a list of books that I think are worthy to throw into this category of "Poetic Knowledge". Not all of these are academic treatments of the subject, but they embody this kind of knowing. This is my short list and not in any particular order:

Robert Capon - nearly everything he writes and geared for me - a person of low academic credentials.
Peter Reinhart - Brother Juniper's Bread Book and Sacramental Magic in a Small Town Cafe: Recipes and stories from Brother Junipers cafe.
Vigen Guroian - Tending the Heart of Virtue: How Classic Stories Awaken a Child Moral Imagination and Inheriting Paradise: Meditations on Gardening
Douglas Wilson - Angles In the Architecture
David Hicks - Norms and Nobility
Joseph Pieper - Leisure the Basis of Culture, Only the Lover Sings: Art and Contemplation and In Tune With The World
Mortimer Adler - Six Great Ideas
Matther Crawford - Shop Class as Soulcraft: An Inquiry into the Value of Work 
Robert Persig - Zen an the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
Fairy Tales, Folk Tales, the Brothers Grimm, and many others - I firmly believe that reading fairy tales for yourself and to your children is nearly the most humanizing thing you can do for them.
George MacDonald - All of his best known works(they are the best known for a reason). No one should live this life and not read "The Princess and Curdie" or "At the Back of the North Wind"
CS Lewis - The Discarded Image and Abolition of Man, and of course his stories. All of his stories.
JRR Tolkien - LOTR series well, anything.

One last one on developing a love for numbers because they really are beautiful and math is not just drill and kill:

The Joy of Mathematics by The Teaching Company lecturer is none other than my favorite mental math giant Arthur Benjamin.

[I am an amateur. If that strikes you as disappointing, consider how much in error you are, and how the error is entirely of your own deciding. At its root lies an objection to cookbooks written by non-professionals (an objection, by the way, which I consider perfectly valid, and congratulate you upon). It does not, however, apply here. Amateur and nonprofessional are not synonyms. The world may or may not need another cookbook, but it needs all the lovers -- amateurs -- it can get. It is a gorgeous old place, full of clownish graces and beautiful drolleries, and it has enough textures, tastes and smells to keep us intrigued for more time than we have. Unfortunately, however, our response to its loveliness is not always delight: It is, far more often than it should be, boredom. And that is not only odd, it is tragic; for boredom is not neutral - it is the fertilizing principle of unloveliness.....A man's real work is to look at the things of the world and to love them for what they are. That is, after all, what God does, and man was not made in God's image for nothing. The fruits of his attention can me seen in all the arts, crafts, and sciences. It can cost him time and effort, but it pays handsomely. If an hour can be spent looking at one onion, think how much regarding it took on the part of that old Russian who looked at onions and church spires long enough to come up with St. Basil's Cathedral. Or how much curious and loving attention was expended by the first man who looked hard enough at the insides of trees, the entrails of cats, and the hind ends of horses and the juice of pine trees to realize he could turn them all into the first fiddle. No doubt his wife urged him to get up and do something useful. I am sure that he was a stalwart enough lover of things to pay no attention at all to her nagging; but how wonderful it would have been if he had know what we know now about his dawdling. He could have silenced her with the greatest riposte of all time: Don't bother me, I am creating the possibility of the Bach unaccompanied sonatas. But if a man's attention is repaid so handsomely, his inattention costs him dearly. Every time he diagrams something instead of looking at it, every time he regards not what a thing is, but what it can be made to mean to him - every time he substitutes a conceit for a fact - he gets grease all over the kitchen of the world. Reality slips away from him; and he is left with the oldest monstrosity in the world: an idol. Things must be met for themselves....One real thing is closer to God than all the diagrams in the world."]

This week we are discussing the first chapter of Poetic Knowledge: The Recovery of Education by James Taylor.

I came across this whole idea of "Poetic Knowledge" by accident in my 20's, but that wasn't what I called it. There were several books, two of them were cookbooks, that kind of got me to thinking about what it is we are trying to do and why we are trying to do it. When I finally did pick up Taylor's book, it was only a confirmation of the things I had been internalizing the 7 years prior.

In order to sum up what Taylor introduces in the book is what many have called the "Pursuit of the Good, the True and the Beautiful."  One of the things I discovered from reading "A History of Education in Antiquity" http://www.amazon.com/History-Education-Antiquity-Wisconsin-Classics/dp/0299088146 was that that for much of the last 3000 years the purpose of education was not so that a person could get a good job, but rather to form a particular kind of person. I do not agree that the purpose of education is to pass along information. I also believe that I am attempt to form the a certain kind of person. A phrase I picked up long ago and that has stuck with me is that I am raising a child with a "fat soul."

In the past 20 years or so I have been thinking about this phrase our culture is apt to throw around without grasping the implications of what it means. That phrase is: "It works."  My thought has been to ask "Works for what?" To what end is this thing working. Ritalin works. "Works for what?" This math program works. "Works for what?" Antibiotics work. "Work for what?"  For many of us, we don't have a clearly defined end goal so we don't know to even ask the right questions. For many years I felt like I was fumbling around in a dark room, trying lead my son. The blind leading the naked...... We are such utilitarians and pragmatists. For most people the bottom line is, "Does it work?" and "How much does it cost?" 

One of my long term goals was not just to get a child who grasped a high standard of knowledge, a child who knows facts and things, but also a lover of those things. I don't want a child who can just add and subtract, I want a child who loves and adores numbers. I don't want just a child who can decode words, but a child who loves and adores them and the way they roll off the tongue. That requires a certain kind of knowing and a certain kind of education. I was never very successful the first time around in the math department. I am not so unfortunate that he is "bored" by math. However, our math experience still causes me to wince. I am sold on this idea of Poetic Knowledge, though I don't know that it is the "term" we must use describe this way of knowing the world. But it is a helpful term none-the-less.

The following is a long quote from my favorite rebel clergyman and theologian, Robert Capon. I recommend to you all of his books, but my favorite are: "The Supper of the Lamb", "An Offering of Uncles", and his books on the parables. The quote comes from his cookbook, "The Supper of the Lamb":

I am an amateur. If that strikes you as disappointing, consider how much in error you are, and how the error is entirely of your own deciding. At its root lies an objection to cookbooks written by non-professionals (an objection, by the way, which I consider perfectly valid, and congratulate you upon). It does not, however, apply here. Amateur and nonprofessional are not synonyms. The world may or may not need another cookbook, but it needs all the lovers -- amateurs -- it can get. It is a gorgeous old place, full of clownish graces and beautiful drolleries, and it has enough textures, tastes and smells to keep us intrigued for more time than we have. Unfortunately, however, our response to its loveliness is not always delight: It is, far more often than it should be, boredom. And that is not only odd, it is tragic; for boredom is not neutral - it is the fertilizing principle of unloveliness.....

A man's real work is to look at the things of the world and to love them for what they are. That is, after all, what God does, and man was not made in God's image for nothing. The fruits of his attention can me seen in all the arts, crafts, and sciences. It can cost him time and effort, but it pays handsomely. If an hour can be spent looking at one onion, think how much regarding it took on the part of that old Russian who looked at onions and church spires long enough to come up with St. Basil's Cathedral. Or how much curious and loving attention was expended by the first man who looked hard enough at the insides of trees, the entrails of cats, and the hind ends of horses and the juice of pine trees to realize he could turn them all into the first fiddle. No doubt his wife urged him to get up and do something useful. I am sure that he was a stalwart enough lover of things to pay no attention at all to her nagging; but how wonderful it would have been if he had know what we know now about his dawdling. He could have silenced her with the greatest riposte of all time: Don't bother me, I am creating the possibility of the Bach unaccompanied sonatas.
 
But if a man's attention is repaid so handsomely, his inattention costs him dearly. Every time he diagrams something instead of looking at it, every time he regards not what a thing is, but what it can be made to mean to him - every time he substitutes a conceit for a fact - he gets grease all over the kitchen of the world. Reality slips away from him; and he is left with the oldest monstrosity in the world: an idol. Things must be met for themselves....

One real thing is closer to God than all the diagrams in the world."
 

Manda,


                                                      

Dear Ladies,

I am in the process of helping launch the new Soft Mozart Academy. It will tie me up for much of this week. I would like to start next week with the study. I have looked at our options. I think the easiet way to do this is actually in this forum. We are from such different locations and time zones that it is almost impossible to set and day and time. We can run the discussion on here. It gives more people a chance to participate even those who end up joining the conversation much later.

I will place the first post on Monday in a new thread. I am certainly game for someone else to lead the conversation for Chapter 2 a couple weeks later. Actually if you want to sign up for a chapter please post here which chapter you would like.

The other option is the move the discussion to a yahoo group. I am also willing to do that.

absolutely

I am open to whatever anyone wants to do. Depending on the time of day, my house can be very loud. I am willing to get up at 4am and stay up pretty late for this as well. I like the idea of taking turns moderating/leading the discussion. So, I will take whatever suggestions anyone has. I will checkout google hangout. I like skype because the typed discussion can be copy and pasted into something else.

Krista - Hey thanks for the ebook link. I didn't know it was even available in ebook format. This is great! The price isn't too bad either.

Krista,

The book is very meaty. My plan is to read a chapter and think about for 2 weeks and then come together to discuss it. It takes me awhile to mull things over and when things are dense with information, I have to read a paragraph or two, think about it and then come back. So I need two weeks in between meeting times. You don't need to read the whole book before hand, but you should buy it and then read it along with us.

Sonya

Manda, I have considered this problem. I think for whomever can make it we will do it on skype. And then I will create a yahoo group and post hte skype discussion and whoever would like to read and comment further can.

Just want to announce that a few Brillkids moms are going to be getting together to discuss the book Poetic Knowledge - The Recovery of Education found here http://www.amazon.com/Poetic-Knowledge-Education-James-Taylor/dp/0791435865/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1377458803&sr=1-1&keywords=poetic+knowledge

If you would like to join us you are more than welcome. Our first discussion will be held the week of September 16th. Final date and time will be determined by the group needs.

How do you know if this is something you want to participate in:

Do you wonder what Classical Education is and what it means to classically educate a child?

Have you wondered if there is a purpose for education beyond getting a good job?

Do you want to know what "getting an education" looks like?

Do all the methods of homeschooling confuse you? How do you pick the right one?


This is a disclaimer: This book is written from a distinctly Christian point of view. That doesn't mean someone who is not a Christian cannot benefit from it as the book draws from Plato. Socrates, and others but, you need to know that going in. Also, this is a fairly academic book. It is not dry, but it can be hard slogging sometimes.  I first read this book 5 or 6 years ago. As I am about to start my homeschooling years over, I thought I'd read it again. This time, maybe discuss it with friends who are just starting out as well. It is much easier to think about this stuff at the beginning than to realize you made some mistakes that must be undone later.

If you are interested, just post here and I will keep you informed.

See, this is why we need someone to help us! Thank you for posting robbyjo and perhaps Andrea's husband will be inclined to answer with his approach.

Here was my thinking when asking. It is important for children to hear conversation, just as in your home when you are teaching children to read, they also hear the words in context with conversation. I am not sure how Emanuel will do it, those are questions we can ask, but I think watching someone pronounce the words and speaking the language in sentences where a child can see the mouth is very important.

andreasro's husband is studying Chinese in China. This is his last year. I asked them if he'd be willing to teach a toddler
Chinese class. I am posting this to find out if there is anyone else interested in it as well. We probably won't start for a month or more. He needs to make lessons. Which brings me to another question. My thought was to base lessons off the LR Chinese content, or content from another program, so that the lessons would be a reinforcement of what the children are already working on. Does anyone have thoughts on this? If so, what program would you use?

Manda,

If you lose your link, we can send it to you again. I would like to pretend that I am this organized but I am not. It is a program that keeps track.....
Technology is very good.