Sorry, Robert wasn't saying that you were implying anyone was unschooling    Just wondering if anyone considers themselves an unschooler here as I would consider brillkids and unschooling mutually exclusive.

Being that we are in an early learning forum where the emphasis is on teaching (in a fun and unpressured way but still teaching) babies and young children to read, do math, learn perfect pitch and so much more I seriously doubt that any of us would actually be unschoolers.  I'm sure we may follow the child's lead to a degree and expose them to the things that interest them but I imagine that there are still expectations and structure within this.  And it seems that those of us with older children tend to start imposing/expecting more structure as they grow older and get closer to the more formal schooling years.  To me when you see what a little structure and routine can do (have a BABY reading/counting etc...) then you are more encouraged to expose your child to good curriculum, books etc... With a structure and expectations of outcomes and not just let them decide what to do/learn and hope it works out.

From what I have read most children who are unschooled learn to read by themselves usually around age 7.  I just can't see that brillkids/Little Reader and unschooling can work together.

Are there any unschoolers here??  Any thoughts??

It may have been this board
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RobinsonUsers4Christ/
As the name makes clear this is a Christian board.  It is not a particularly active board and it tends to repeat a lot of the same things.

I saw URthemom recommended on one of the Robinson boards a few weeks ago but didn't buy the book.  Would love to know what you think of it when you have read it. 

Nice to have you back Robert.  I know I enjoy reading what you have to say.  Glad to see you have read the other thread and like what Dr Robinson has to say.  The independence in learning that is fostered in the families that we are discussing is very much within a structured framework (curriculum and schedule).

Mandabplus3, I know this question was directed to Robert but I just thought I would share my plan for self-marking.  (And I reserve the right to change my mind on this at any stage in the next 10 years or so!)  I agree completely that a child who has no accountability in marking their own work is quickly going to discover that they can 'get it all right' and move on to the more fun things as Robert says.  For those of us who do want to work toward independence (which I think becomes more important to us the more children that we have  ) than we have to work out how to work in accountability while still having the child work as independently as possible.

At this stage as my son is not yet 6 years old, I do spend a majority of the lesson/marking sitting with him.  Not so much to help him as to simply keep him on track     By the end of 5/4 he was getting much more independent/focuses but then we had a 3 week break .... .... and we begin again....  Anyway, my ultimate goal is for him to work mostly indpendently including correcting for a lesson per day and then on Saturdays he will do the test that is available (we have the 3 book set).  I will then mark this test.  I hope that this will give me a good idea of idea of how he is really going.  Obviously, I will also be around during the week while he is doing his lesson and (silently) checking random questions as he works/marks.  Now, if there is an issue with honesty with marking things would change very quickly and some type of 'incentive' to work properly would need to be discussed.

I did BLW though didn't follow any strict schedult/guidelines with 2 of mine.  I found it so much easier to wait to introduce solids.  My 2 didn't have anything other than breastmilk for about the first 8 or 9 months and then they would just have a taste of fruit/vegetable/soup that I was eating.  I never pureed and made up food just for them.  At the most I would cook a few vegetables for them if we were having something I didn't want them to eat.  They really didn't eat full meals until around a year and even then not 3 meals per day.  But for my 2 this has definitely not affected their weight/height.  They have always been above the 95th percentile since the day they were born and never dropped down.  Definitely would be an issue if you didn't have enough milk though.

My son weaned at 6 weeks before 3 years old but I was 8 1/2 months pregnant with the next one and assuming I had no/very little milk.  My daughter I have just 'encouraged' to wean at 3 years.  She would still be breastfeeding if she could.  But considering she happily goes off for the weekend to my sister's without me I figured she was ok to wean although I do wish I could have done the whole self weaning thing. And after 6 years of breastfeeding with only a 3 week break between and waking up every night I'm beginning to get run down (and I have an older child with special needs who doesn't sleep well also).  Unfortunately although I was careful with my children's diets I wasn't so good about mine and didn't look after myself as well as I should have.  So that would be another piece of advice I would give

My children didn't sleep through the night though until about 2 1/2 years old or later.  Not sure whether that was because I breastfed them exclusively for so long and they were used to waking up to feed or because I'm so soft and found it easier just to feed them in the middle of the night than try to settle them without feeding. 

I also didn't introduce dairy/gluten until after 2 years old.  They really just had vegetables, fruit and meat for the first year.

Sorry, Tamsyn, for the incorrect spelling.    Should have checked that before pressing send.

Tasmyn,

I have never heard that baby wearing counts as tummy time.  My children didn't spend much time at all on the floor doing tummy time but I did wear them a lot.  Interesting....

Jenene

NPLight I have send you a personal message.

I do have the PDFs saved if anyone else needs them.  Although after using the PDF for 5/4 I did end up buying a second hand set of 6/5 as I decided it was worth it to have the solution manual.

My son likes The Littles series at the moment. 

I've been away from the forum for a couple of days and I missed so much discussion    I haven't looked at the last couple of links posted but I hope to do so later tonight.

First let me say I am far, far, far from the ideal in any of these areas.  That is the reason I like some of the threads that come up on this forum.  They convict me  and hopefully inspire me to do better in some way.

My kids have lots of 'twaddle' in their books and honestly, I doubt that I would do a very good job of keeping it all out/censoring every book that they read especially as they get older and read more/faster.  But, I do wonder about the idea of having them read good literature but then in their 'free' time allowing them to read twaddle (I really like that word by the way - sums things up in such a polite way).  To me it is a bit like the tv debate (again I fall far from my ideal in this area).  We all know how the children (and us!) can get sucked in by the television.  Allow a little here and there and it slowly starts becoming longer/more often until we realise that we have gone beyond our boundaries and we have to take 'drastic' measures to get back on track.  Would the same happen with books?  My guess is yes it is just that we see reading as a better past time than tv and when we compare ourselves to the average family our children are making better use of their time.  But if we compare our children to those of a few generations ago or those that have achieved an excellent education are they spending their time in a more quality way?  And I think that we can all agree that the average child is not what we want to aim for otherwise we wouldn't be spending so much time discussing these types of issues.  We would all be off watching whatever the latest series on tv is. 

And, I think the same is true with sugar.  I wish I could be as strict as Dr Robinson (although he does admit to his own sugar addiction  )  We have done both ways.  We have a daughter with autism so we have done the strict diet (with all the family) as well as had the usual amount of bread, dairy and sugar etc...  I find when we start allowing 'just a little bit' of rubbish or 'just for special occassions' things start quickly going down hill and we end up with more and more.   Because like entertainment and simple books it is easier.  I love being able to feed my children a toasted cheese sandwich (or yoghurt and muesli which is their current love) for lunch rather than cooking some type of meat and vegetables for every meal.  Is a sandwich bad?  Well, no not when I compare it to the meals most of the other children around eat.  But compared to what I know about good nutrition and excellence in nutrition than it falls short.

But, maybe the problem actually lies with me and my lack of will power.  Maybe if I had more self-control in some of these areas I would be able to regulate my children's tv viewing or sugar intake better.  Maybe we could have a little bit and stick to the little bit.  But sugar is an area I really struggle with.  TV viewing no but internet yes which really isn't that much better in a lot of ways.  But I also know that having just a little bit of sugar makes the body crave it more and it is actually easier for most people to give up sugar in all forms so that the taste buds acclimatise to foods without the sweetness than to try to control their intake.  And I wonder if the same is true for books (or DVDs etc..).  By allowing a little bit do we then just set up the child to want more. 

As to Dr Robinson's no electronics.  I would be interested to know whether he would still have that rule today?  I think in a lot of ways it is probably a good rule but I'm just not sure how practicle it is nowdays when so much of what we do is based in technology.  It definitely is hard to control though as we all know 

Tamsyn, I visit your blog every so often and find much of interest.  But, yes, I definitely spend too much time on line - particularly when a thread gets interesting as this one has! 

Nee1,

I totally agree with you. I guess I wasn't very clear.  What I was saying is that it is a strong program combined with diligence (or hours of practice) that creates success and that it can happen at any age.  Even as adults if we were willing to put in the hours I'm sure we too would be able to achieve at a much higher level than where ever we currently are.  Our kids are however getting an early start but we still have to ensure they continue.  I guess I was just saying that it is quite possible to achieve success even starting later without the advantage of EL and that it really does come down to putting in the hours/effort whether it is when they are 5 months or 5 years.  

My husband and I were just discussing the outlier's 10 000 hours concept again.  I really need to read that book.  As I said in the post quoted it is my own innate laziness that I struggle against the most.  I know success is 'simply' a matter of choosing a strong program and then ensuring our children spend the hours required to master it but it is so much easier to let ourselves get caught up in everything else that needs to be done as parents or reading for pleasure, getting the kids involved in extra curricular stuff etc...  None of which is 'bad' but it is not the best thing when it comes to our children's eventual success.  I need to create a routine/schedule and stick to it.  And that is what these parents did.  The Swann's had their mornings, the Robinson's their set 5 hours and the levy's their couple of hours after school.   Every day with very little breaks.  It isn't hard theoretically . Just wish my personality wasn't so laid back and that I was more driven to succeed even in my own personal life.

As to EL in these homes, again I totally agree with you.  I made a comment on another thread recently along the lines of I'm not convinced that it matters significantly whether or not you do a formal EL program with your child.  It is more about the general attitude and expectations etc... Of the home.  I may not have flashed dots like I should have when my son was a baby but his father and I both have degrees, he was always exposed to things considered 'advanced', not spoken to as a baby, extended and challenged and expected to succeed.  He will be 6 years old in a few weeks and we are just starting Saxon 6/5.  I think the same is true in these households.  We are only shown a very little glimpse into these children's education. As you said I'm sure a lot of EL stuff is happening without it being a formal program.  Just the fact that education is so highly thought of in the home is a huge advantage.  And often what happens is that the attitude/activities in our homes are what we consider normal and not worth mentioning.  I'm also sure a lot of learning is still happening outside of 'school' hours throughout their lives.  I can't imagine that families that put so much effort into their schooling hours would then park their kids in front of the tv for the rest of the day:)

Somewhat related to this - I was reading a couple of article's on Tamsyn's (I think) blog the other day and she mentions that entertainment was created to pacify the slaves and that basically the wealthy had much more useful ways to spend their time.   I'm not sure how true this is but it doesn't really matter.  It has made me think about those 'harmless' DVDs that I let the kids watch.  Or those dumbed down books that I let them read.  One of the strengths of the Robinson program is the high quality of books that the children read (and no tv except a movie on very rare occasions).  If I feed my children's minds 'junk' even a little bit how can I then expect them to love and seek out the good food.  As humans we tend to do what is easiest/of least resistance and reading some of today's mindless books with watered down plots and vocabulary is a lot easier than reading the type of books recommended by Robinson, ambleside, OFE etc.

Also agree with the 'your kids are so smart' or 'they were born gifted' type comments.  I do believe that there is some genetic tendencies to IQ but I think that the hours spent practicing far outweigh the natural ability (this is assuming 'normal' intelligence).  Yes, some children are born geniuses but that is by far the minority.  And even those that are born geniuses still spend countess hours working on whatever they are gifted in simply because they enjoy it or need to.

Anyway, a very long way of saying I agree with your comments  

This is a bit off-topic (and I'm sure it has already been discussed in those great math threads from earlier last year) but I'm wondering if some-one can give me a little more information on Life of Fred.  Wolf wind seeming you are currently planning to use it I'm assuming you have researched it well.  Anyway, Life of Fred has some very good reviews and I know lots of homeschoolers use it as their core curriculum.  From my very brief look at the earlier years I don't understand how it covers everything.  Admittedly I haven,t looked at the older years at all.  Now, for eg, one of the books mentioned that it covered time but it was only something like 2 o'clock.  So how then do you cover the rest of o'clock time.  Are you expected to supplement?  Or am I completely misreading it?   I'm only going on a brief look at the website so would be happy to be corrected.
From what I have heard Life of Fred is very engaging.  I have wondered about the ssibility of doing a Saxon book and then having a 'break' while doing a Life of Fred before moving on to the next Saxon.

So after sitting down and looking at the table of contents of Saxon 6/5 it seems that it is the first 40 lessons that are review.  What I have ended up deciding to do is take the first 2 weeks to go through those lessons.  Each day we will quickly read through the lesson and answer a few of the practice questions.  This will be done in groups of 5 lessons so lessons 1 - 5 today, 6 - 10 tomorrow etc...  I also have the test booklet so he will then do the appropriate test for each group of lessons ( Saxon tests in groups of 5 lessons) that day.  It is only 20 questions so very doable.  This will give us 2 days at the end of the fortnight to spend some time on anything that he may need to before moving on to lesson 41 where we will go back to 1 lesson per day. 

Just thought I would write that down our plan for anyone in a similar position.  If all the books follow this pattern it would mean that there are only 80 lessons per book and at one lesson per day 5 days per week it would be possible to get through 3 books per year.