Ok I think I wasn't clear enough.

The tradeoff I meant was between the understand I wanted the kids to have and what was possible given their level of understanding and skill. I don't think you can teach very deep understanding (the level that adults have) first.
Instead understanding and skill depend on each other. For instance when teaching addition, I don't start by trying to teach a deep understanding. Instead I start by getting a student to understand just enough to feel comfortable solving problems. The just enough would be to understand that addition is a story about how someone is giving you some amount of stuff, and you're trying to figure out how much stuff you have. This way they don't feel like they're memorizing random facts (ie 1+1 = 2) but don't feel overwhelmed by trying to over-understand addition (ie.  knowing that repeating addition would be multiplication)

As for what Chris is saying about the tricks leading to creativity is counter to my experiences. For most students I feel that the tricks create a belief that math is just a series of memorized facts. I know some students like yourself may become interested by the tricks, but I think you're in the minority. I think its much better to teach robust fundamental techniques that work across all numbers, so that students realize that nothing in math is arbitrary.

Tom

Hi Arvi,

Thanks for your reply.

So what I think you're saying is that the method for Soroban you learned was very formula baed. For example it was more similar to 5+5 = 10, not 5+5 has to be 10 because counting 5 more from 5 causes you to have 10.

Is that right?

Or, do you mean that Soroban practices the use of one method of solving problems?

If it's the Former, then it's just the way some Soroban programs are designed. I know that many Soroban programs don't emphasize understanding why calculations work, but that's simply the philosophy of the teachers. It's a more traditional approach to teaching that I think program like Kumon shares.

I know that as a Soroban teacher I've had to make tradeoffs in how much understanding I teach vs practice, not because of time constraints but because of a child's development. I've found that children just don't understand numbers the same way an adult does.

An example might be addition. As an adult we've seem how addition works through the context of arithmatic and algebra so that the concept of adding is fundamentally different from what a child might know. So, I think it's important to treat understanding as just part of the skill necessary for math. Almost like scaffolding that gives kids a starting point to build further math skills, but may eventually be replaced with better and deeper understanding as they grow up.

Let me know if that makes sense.

Tom

Hey Arvi,

I actually have a quick question for you.
What exactly do you mean when you said that Soroban felt mechanized?

I've heard this said a few times, but I'm still not 100% sure what people mean.

Thanks for your help.

Tom

Hey Chris,

Nee beat you to it, check the edit at the top.

Tom

Edit* Nee1 found an error I meant 1,000 hours of practice not 10,000. Friends don't let friends do math at 4 AM.

Hey Chris,

In my opinion, her level in the video is withen the reach of adults. I would estimate that it would take about 10,000 hours of practice to reach that level. It's a rough estimate I get from my own experiences. So, for an adult to reach her level in a year I would assume about the same amount of time is necessary. In a year, I would guess if a dedicated, motivated and well coached adult would need 3-4 hours of practice a day. (10,000 / 365 = 2.734 and I'm adding in an extra hour for the drop in neural plasticity)

But honestly, I've never done anything that intense for that long of a period. I feel like I'm guessing more than giving you an answer from my experience.

Please take it for what it is.

Nadia> I think you hit the nail on the head. She is probably one of the few kids who can keep their motivation up for such extended amounts of time. And her parents are very dedicated to her progress. I think if you want the best possible results from any student, those 2 are the more important factors in their education.

Tom

Hi Guys,

Interesting thread you guys having going here, thought I'd throw in my 2 cents.

So I know Pokerdad was talking about not memorizing math facts from a previous statement I made, and I think he really understands what I meant. The goal is to develop deep, powerful neural pathways for anzan by practicing Soroban. When you use memorization, it actually uses a different path, so it can weaken the anzan skills (similar to the way an unused muscle will atrophy).

I think what Nadia meant with mechanization is just the next step in the learning process I was talking about. Think about the lack of conscious thought you have when you get up and get a cup of water to drink. You don't have to think about moving your muscles to stand up, walk, grab a cup, turn the nozzle, balance the cup as water fills it, and on and on. The reason it's all so fluid and easy is because you've done it so often. But a baby learning to take his first step will struggle just to keep his balance as he stands. In anzan you really do start in the same way, first you have to really try just to stand but with practice it become automatic or "mechanized"

Finally as for the amount of time to spend practicing ... it's a really tough question to answer. The best answer I can give you is: generally more practice leads to better results.

I know Chris was mentioning that there's some level of optimal practice, and theoretically there probably is. But it's not determined by age group. I've seen kids who (in the beginning) can't practice for more than 45 seconds at a time, while other kids can practice 6+ hours a day when she's 3 years old. I know 6 hours seems like it would drive you crazy, but think about how much time your child might spend playing sports or a video game. If he or she can enjoy the activity 6 hours will really fly by.

What I can tell you is that most kids will go through some phases as they learn. First they will probably be excited as they learn new skills very rapidly and everything seems fun. Then they'll likely hit some challenges that take more time to overcome. It might be multiplication, or division, or sometimes just more challenging addition. If you as the parent stay firm, knowing that it's just the first of many challenges your child will face in their life times, they will get over the hump. Afterwards, your child will probably enjoy a stretch of time where everything feels fun and exciting again, which will inevitably be followed by another challenge that will take time to overcome. This crest and trough of learning will continue forever.

Hope this helps,
Tom

Hey Chris,

Thats pretty cool.

I got 94% after 37 tests.

Maybe I can credit Soroban (shameless self promotion here*) since I seem to be able to guess the right answer if I just follow my gut feeling. The 2 times I was wrong was when I ignored my intuition.

Thanks,
Tom

Hi guys,

PokerDad has the gist of it right. Trying to teach addition and subtraction beyond the "simple" (no carrying to 10's or 5's) will usually result in unneeded confusion for 95%+ of kids learning Soroban. I know it's a bit hard to visualize without a Soroban in front of you, but the problem Cammie does is the "simple" type of addition and subtraction.
Nadia - the real issue with confusion is that most students don't practice enough to fully internalize addition and subtraction and thats where they make mistakes. Think of it like a new driver who's still consciously thinking about pressing the brake and accelerator pedals. They can easily feel overwhelmed and press the wrong pedal if they get distracted or if someone suddenly runs into the street. In the same way most students take some time to learn to use the addition and subtraction "pedals" correctly. So, I simplify it to make sure they can master 1 skill at a time.

Jones - I know this is a bit pedantic, but most students at higher levels will notice a difference in the ability to do addition vs subtraction or multiplication vs division. It doesn't necessarily hold that Division will always be the weakest skill, such as in my case where I usually score highest in division followed by multiplication, I'm slightly more accurate in subtraction and then addition. Different people seem to excel in different calculations for what I call "innate talent" for the lack of a better description.

Edit - I just saw aangeles' explanation and I have to admit I was confused reading it!
It seems to be the "traditional" (textbook) method for teaching Soroban. My methods are significantly simplified so it's kind of a jolt to see the old method. Good for Ella for being able to keep it all straight! I'd love to see a new video of her progress!

Tom

Hi Nadia,

Congratulations!

I had a quick questions: Do they use the term "remove" for subtraction in the class? or something else?

Thanks,
Tom

Hi Marlita,

I know I'm a bit late with my response, but I wanted to confirm that I can make it to the 2012 convention.

Thanks,
Tom

Hey Guys,

I really appreciate all the responses!

I thought I'd make a quick clarification: I know I said that there are no shortcuts but I firmly believe that there are more efficient and less efficient ways to achieve a outcome. For Soroban there is a standard efficient algorithm for calculations that I make sure every student learns.
But I consider that analogous to learning the rules of grammer and spelling. It's what you do with those rules (and the importance of breaking them at the right times) that can create poetry and novels and other art.

As for avoiding the big pitfalls that might really hurt a child's education, I'd really like to work with you to make sure we can avoid those. So, please ask away and I'll do my best (sometimes its just my opinion) to help!


Chris1
I didn't mean to sound defensive sorry if I gave that impression. As for creativity, I agree I think the creativity Soroban promotes isn't in the variety of calculation techniques. It can promote a form of creativity due to the practice of Anzan stimulating the visual part of the brain, and because of they way I structure my classes where I don't just give students a method to solve problems. I believe in the process of gamification as one of the best ways to teach. So I keep questions open ended and let kid's try to solve new types of problems using the techniques they can come up with. What I dont do is leave them to just their own devices. Eventually they will learn the most efficient methods (usually earlier in the process to avoid picking up bad habits).

Maquenzie
I think Soroban's pretty good at representing quantity as an abstraction. Although I initially teach it using solid references such as " your mom gave you 1 apple, then your dad gave you 2 apples, how many apples do you have?" Students quickly learn that the story doesn't have to be about apples. I think partly because my workbooks don't have anything referring to apples in it, just numbers.

As for multiplication and Division, I actually teach the basic concepts as stories just like addition and subtraction. Then when they understand what's going on I move them onto the Soroban to practice the mechanics of solving problems.

PokerDad
I'm really interested in that book as well, Looking forward to the updates!

Hi there,

I'm sure you know that I'm a Soroban teacher and obviously biased so take this for what it is.

I've read some of the Vedic math techniques and I personally didn't like the overall philosophy they have regarding calculations.

To me, it seemed like a collection of techniques to handle very specific calculations. (I'm not saying that this example is exactly how Vedic math works since It's been a while since I read the 1 book I had on it) An example on what they might teach is: 1000 - 384 means that you have to learn what 9-3, 9-8 and 10-4 is to find that the answer is 616. Essentially they teach that you can skip the concept of borrowing 10 (for the hundreds and tens) for this type of problem since you know that you will have to borrow it at the end for the one's and you will get the same answer *Source*http://vedicmaths.org/introduction/tutorial/tutorial.asp#tutorial1

This would be counter to a Soroban program that I would teach, where I would emphasize understanding the concept of getting 10 from the larger digit (10 hundreds in a thousand, 10 tens in a hundred, etc) and doing each step correctly.
I think this type of learning creates fewer but more robust rules for children that they can then apply to other problems.

But the cost of course is that the learning curve is slightly steeper since you can't just memorize a rule. I think the good outweighs the costs.

Let me know what you think,
Tom

Hi DannyandAmy,

I see, thanks for the clarification

Yes, I do find it difficult to recommend schools.
But I think if I had to choose, I would really try to look at the long term students that have stayed with the class. Do they have students who stay for years? if not why not?
Do the senior students display at least some of the characteristics you would want your child to in the future?

I think it's relatively easy to look good on a brochure or in a 30 minute sales pitch. While developing a student over the years means they see and are influenced by the teacher and the class.

I wouldn't necessary use only this as a benchmark for a class, but I think it's a good barometer that a lot parents might not initially consider.

Let me know what you think,
Tom

Maquenzie

Quick question, how do they teach adding numbers to larger than 10?
So what do they ask you to do for 9 + 1?

Thanks,
Tom

Hey just my 2 cents on this.

For my students I don't mind at all that they start by counting beads. Usually in a few months at the latest (most kids start just intuitively seeing the numbers in 2, 3 classes) kids will know what each number looks like.

*1 hint* to count numbers larger than 5, start by pointing to the 5 as a 5, then counting up to 6, 7, 8, and 9. That way they start using the same strategy. Vs trying to count the 4 beads on the bottom + 5, which would confuse most kids.

Good luck,
Tom