Adults learning Soroban

[Maquenzie]

What resources are you using to teach yourself Soroban? 

I've found some links and such that I can share, but I'll let others go first since I don't really know what I'm talking about.

[PokerDad]

Browsing through youtube videos, I found ones made by abacusmaster. I know how to do addition, subtraction, and multiplication - but have only spent time practicing addition and subtraction. I've been meaning to buy their training software, but even without the software, you can practice addition and subtraction right on their site for free. I've found a few errant problems, but all in all it's quick feedback and decent practice. Once I had the hang of some basic movements and spent a little time practicing, I could do some slow and simple anzan. I can see the potential is there

[Maquenzie]

I think I'm doing something similar, through the free iPad app "Master Soroban".  Every time I hit a new skill (multiplication, division), I just googled how to do it.  I can do all four operations now with multiple digits, but addition and subtraction must faster.  On this app, I can beat the "grade 7" challenge, but not grade 6 (yet!).

I've been using the finger movements as described here: http://www.visual-soroban.org/smart-moves.html

I've found so many different finger methods though, so I'm not sure what's best, or if it's really just preference.  The book I have on order uses a three finger approach.  And of course, I've only been using an app, so I've yet to see what I'll use long term once I actually touch a soroban!

What I'm finding really difficult though is anzan.  I'm sure it's because of all those grooves put in place by years and years of doing arithmetic differently (like user "Soroban" said).  Helpfully for me now (but unhelpfully for me in elementary school as my teachers didn't like it) I did subtract similarly (finding the 10-compliment, I always called it the "opposite").  My 2nd grade teacher accused me of cheating because I never showed my work, and it was a fairly bad experience and I learned to compensate a little, but my mind actually does prefer these methods. 

I find doing anzan with the complimentary numbers hardest.  When I hear 3 + 7, my mind stops picturing the abacus and just says ten and then I have to force it back to looking at the abacus and try to set it at ten, instead of adding 7 if I were moving the beads.  If that makes sense.  I'm really slow at anzan now, and undoubtedly could do arithmetic quicker any other way, but I'm trying to practice it now every day to build these new grooves so that I can use it for the more complex problems.  But, I think this part will be slower going.  I'm using the iPhone app "Anzan Junior" because I can set it really slow and slowly add numbers.  Currently 4 1-digit problems within 9 seconds (2.25 seconds per number) is a challenging level for me.  I have a LOT of work to do there!

[PokerDad]

I went ahead and did some flash anzan and had the same problem you described. It's just too easy and fast to rely on math facts than to spend the time and try to visualize the abacus. I think the problem is years of math training vs very little abacus training.
If you're wanting to fix this, I recommend not doing flash anzan for a while, but rather practicing simple math problems in your head without a time limit by visualizing the abacus.

Neurologically, you have to build up the ability so that under stress it's not automatic to attempt to pull math facts.

I think I sort of understand what Tom meant when he said that his biggest obstacle in teaching anzan is the knowledge of math facts. The problem is, math facts will only carry a person so far... after so many digits and the number gets to a certain size (or numbers are introduced at a certain rate), the ill-equipped mind cannot carry the load.

Doing flash anzan when not ready is not much different than putting 300lbs on the bench press and expecting a newbie to lift it. You have to build up to it. Start where you CAN and then build on it.

[Maquenzie]

I think I am doing what you are saying. The time is almost maxed out so I'm doing it slow.  And the problems are like: 4 + 1 + 9 + 7.  And I force myself to do it on a mental soroban.  It's hard.  Not too much, and I like hard. That particular app can be adjusted to pretty easy.  The first one I found went way too fast at its easiest setting.

Anyhow, I am agreeing with you I think. 

I like to add (or subtract) numbers as I see them when driving too (but there's no way to check that).  I suppose that's the advantage of a very slow anzan app, a quick check.

Aaaandd...I feel like I need abacus rehab...I've been "playing" for about 4 hours this morning.  I should really stop and do some other things. But the bonus is my 5 year old has watched and pretends to play along or asks for a try sometimes.

I need to cut myself off for the day though, geez.  Or...maybe just until the kids are asleep..

[Maquenzie]

I found this to assist with anzan -

http://www.sorobancymru.co.uk/page28a.html

I haven't had a chance to use it yet, but I'll see if it helps me bridge over.  And, of course for use with my son when he gets there (I'm waiting until an actual soroban and our books arrive to teach him, right now he's just building up the desire by watching me enjoy myself).

[Ayesha Nicole]

Aaaandd...I feel like I need abacus rehab...I've been "playing" for about 4 hours this morning.  I should really stop and do some other things.

I need to cut myself off for the day though, geez.  Or...maybe just until the kids are asleep..

Maquenzie >    You are too cute!   I tried the alpacas game, and it is fun, but a bit nerve racking to beat the clock.   I also ordered another set of books for my other child because making copies for two children is quite annoying for them to write the answers down.     For now, they are writing in the Kumon Numbers 1- 30 book for handwriting practice, and I think I will print out practice sheets from here:

http://www.nurtureminds.com/worksheets/math.php

We are also enjoying this soroban app:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/WE08M9lNJ9M&rel=1" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/WE08M9lNJ9M&rel=1</a>

http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/soroban/id306163407?mt=8     

Thanks for the great links! 

[Maquenzie]

Ayesha Nicole - that's an awesome worksheet link, thanks!!  Hopefully my books and soroban will arrive soon and we can dig in and actually need those soon!

I think the books you have are the same ones I ordered.  How are they?  Have you started using them with your little ones? (is it twins that are the age by your name..my son is just a little older, he just turned 5). If you've started, how do you like it? How do they like it?

I'm very impatiently waiting for our set to show up.


I had been working on addition or subtraction nightly with my son (using manipulatives, never rote memory anyway), but decided to start in doing multiplication each night instead. And we've done some pre-soroban activities from some tutorials posted here (using marbles in a bowl and then putting five marbles in a bag).  He also made up his own game with the plastic bag of five marbles where one person holds their hand over some of the marbles and the other person "guesses" what's under the hand using the clue of the marbles you can see.  After one long session of this (he just didn't want to stop!) and playing it every now and then since, I can confidently say he gets what makes 5 pretty solidly.  Hopefully this will help when our stuff arrives.

Anyone have experience with this DVD? 

http://www.bento.co.in/product_info.php?products_id=199

[aangeles]

Maquenzie,

Thanks for that great guessing game idea! My daughter has learned the number bonds of 5 but had been having trouble with those of 10. Just a couple of sessions of this game and she has them down cold! And, it was such a fun and painless way of doing it! 

Thanks again!

[bella]

please help me decide , i was gifted rightstart math first level and i liked that it is based on abacus and lots of manipulation no worksheet , or only little . my daughter is enjoying it and learning to use their abacus . what slowed us down is waiting for her to recognize quantities without counting which now she mastered and we are going fast .i found all the next levels used for less and bought them and felt i don't have to worry about math curriculum for now .
and i see this thread . i am not familiar with soroban , i tried to watch some you tube clips , and read your posts .
she is five will it be wise to introduce it now , will it confuse her having to work on two different abacus . what advantage this one has on the one used by rightstart which group quantities by five , and lots of parents reported kids learned to do mental math thanks to rightstart .
viv

[Soroban]

Hi Guys,

 Maquenzie > Yes, the anzan is difficult to learn with many of the products out there right now. It's really not your fault. Most of the programs out there aren't designed all that well IMHO, since they seem to be designed by people who either can't do anzan themselves or haven't spent the time to break down anzan to its basic components to that anyone can figure it out. What I suggest is that you put off doing ANY Anzan for now. I promise that if you work on the Soroban until you get it down pat. If you do, the Anzan will be much easier to "get".

PokerDad > Yes that's a great example of why Anzan should come later. Trying to lift 300 pounds without properly learning how means that First of all you won't be able to do it, and Second that forcing it to happen will probably result in you doing it wrong. It can be COUNTERproductive to learning.

bella > I would recommend starting to learn the Soroban as soon as possible. In my opinion the Russian or School abacus is limited in developing mental math because of it's structure. That being said, if your goal isn't to learn mental math the Russian abacus may be fine. In a sense it's more "intuitive" for younger students since the same technique of moving 1 more bead into position will work from 0 to 10 vs the Soroban which requires students to understand the five bead. as for confusion please see my statement below

I just wanted to give you guys my philosophy or belief about math education and Soroban. I think the most powerful aspect of a good Soroban education is that it builds the deep "groove" of understanding and skill that lets kids understand math. I think this very deep strong foundation for math lets students build skills on top of a common foundation that reinforces understanding. This is very counter to a lot of modern techniques that I feel encourage a hodgepodge of learning technique and skills. It's not to say that I believe everyone should 1 way of doing things or anything like that, but that every student should have a common thread in their math education. Because like in a tree, it will build the trunk that can branch off into other topics or aspects of learning.

Hope this helps,
Tom

[Maquenzie]

Tom, thank you VERY much for offering your advice!

So, at what level of understanding the Soroban would you reccommend trying to Anzan, or is it time spent doing it, or just something that happens without trying?  I really don't know very much and find it frustratingly difficult to find helpful information.  Are there any books (maybe not text books per se) that you'd reccommend?

Aangeles, I'm glad that game helped! My son made it up

[Soroban]

Well in my program I have addition broken up into 5 phases. At the end of which students have the technical knowledge to add any number. Thats the rough guide I used to start Yomiage-Anzan (where I read numbers out loud) but there's some variation based on age, personality, and other factors. The real milestone I'm looking for is a child's ability to manipulate the Soroban correctly (not memorizing facts like 12+2 = 14) and unconsciously (the student doesn't have consciously think about what he's doing to add numbers)

If a student is at this level, anzan almost happens without any additional effort (for simple problems). Afterwards, we get to work on increasing the number of digits a student can visualize, then visualizing more complicated Soroban movements, and then multiplication and division in anzan.

I unfortunately don't know of any books that give a good explanation of how to do this. If there were I wouldn't bother to build my own learning system.

In such a system would you want me to show you the fastest way to start learning Anzan, or take some more time to master more of Soroban before moving onto Anzan?

Tom

[Ayesha Nicole]

Ayesha Nicole - that's an awesome worksheet link, thanks!!  Hopefully my books and soroban will arrive soon and we can dig in and actually need those soon!

I think the books you have are the same ones I ordered.  How are they?  Have you started using them with your little ones? (is it twins that are the age by your name..my son is just a little older, he just turned 5). If you've started, how do you like it? How do they like it?

I'm very impatiently waiting for our set to show up.


I had been working on addition or subtraction nightly with my son (using manipulatives, never rote memory anyway), but decided to start in doing multiplication each night instead. And we've done some pre-soroban activities from some tutorials posted here (using marbles in a bowl and then putting five marbles in a bag).  He also made up his own game with the plastic bag of five marbles where one person holds their hand over some of the marbles and the other person "guesses" what's under the hand using the clue of the marbles you can see.  After one long session of this (he just didn't want to stop!) and playing it every now and then since, I can confidently say he gets what makes 5 pretty solidly.  Hopefully this will help when our stuff arrives.

Anyone have experience with this DVD? 

http://www.bento.co.in/product_info.php?products_id=199

Hi Maquenzie!

Hmmm.  Where did you order your books from?  (the link?)  I ordered mine from:  http://www.nurtureminds.com/contactus.htm and received my 2nd order last night, because we are in a neighboring state.  I think they are easy to understand, I just don't really know how to "teach" it, and am also learning it at the same time.  So, I just read the lesson's instructions and am doing the best I can.  And yes, I have twin girls that are 4 years 8 months.

The 1st lesson covers the parts of the soroban and the 2nd lesson is counting 1 - 10 with some basic exercises.  They already know how to count to 100, but I am working through the book.  I paused the lessons because I needed another set of books and will resume after they complete this Kumon workbook for handwriting practice, within a week:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/4774307033/qid=1126722986/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1?v=glance&s=books

They like it and like to count the Pacchi soroban or the apps on our iPhone and iPad.  I wish we had an experienced teacher near us.  And I wonder if "Soroban" can teach via wiziq or skype? 

And to answer his last question, I would want to master using the soroban, and I am 110% certain that with practice, it will become second nature, and then 'imagining' it will be a natural result.  I say this because with Qur'anic recitation and memorization, we use our right pointer finger to 'read' under the words as we orally recite them to memorize, and with many repetitions, you eventually get to the point where you can 'imagine' the page in front of you, if you get stuck when reciting from memory to your teacher or during prayers. 

This is also described by Nabioullah, in the documentary "Koran by Heart" that released on the first of Ramadhan last year, [ http://www.hbo.com/documentaries/koran-by-heart/index.html ] , where he competes in one of the International Qur'anic Recitation competitions, and you have to recite from any random place in teh Qur'an and stop when told.  There are many resembling verses and it takes a lot of practice and repetitions to recite verbatim with strict rules of phonics, from anywhere in a 604 page book.  He states along the lines of:  "I imagine the page in front of my eyes; but I don't 'physically' turn the pages in my mind, they just appear." in the video clip below:


<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/qeEEA_vk51g&rel=1" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/qeEEA_vk51g&rel=1</a>


So, I am more than certain it is the same with soroban and anzan.   It is comes down to understanding the theories very well, coupled with a lot of practice and patience, for it to become embedded in one's mind.

[Maquenzie]

Here's where I ordered from: http://www.mathabacus.com/

They appear to be the same books.


Soroban - I'd want whatever is best, I guess.  I love jumping into things but if an expert told me I'd have a more solid understanding doing it a certain way, I'd want that.  If there's no better way, I'd probably enjoy working on both increasing Anzan skills and increasing Soroban skills simultaneously.

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