Anyone get results from Doman Math Method?

[lamp]

Hi Domanmom,
thanks for replying.
do i keep the two sets of cards separate ie 1-5 and 6-10 and keep the reshuffling within the set itself (meaning not to mix the two sets up?)

tks again

[DomanMom]

Well, it doesn't really matter if you mix the two sets up, but it just makes it difficult to keep track of how many times your baby has seen each number if you were to do that. In another reply you'll find how I would just, after teaching the first ten numbers, I changed my sets to an even set and odd set, that way it was easy to keep track of which ones I showed.

[Chris1]

All three of my children appeared to be able to recognize quantity following GD maths, but this ability was not retained beyond their third birthdays. I recently phoned the GD team and was shocked to be informed that the ability would not be retained even if taught from birth. Prior to the call i had concluded that i had been fooled into believing the system worked and that my children were responding to gestural cues. I'm not sure what to conclude now-i can say that an ability to perform rapid calculation was also not retained and i introduced other methods to develop an understanding of numbers. On contacting the GD team i asked if she could direct me to any website that provided examples of older children/adults demonstrating quantity recognition which she was unable to do for the reason stated above-there was no confusion over what was said but perhaps someone else could check to confirm. Clearly this has implications. I spent a considerable amount of time preparing materials and probably spent over 6 years in total (3 children) showing these cards daily(3 sessions total 60 seconds each day) and avoided introducing numerals during the early stages as instructed. Had i known that the ability would not be retained i think i would have adopted alternative methods earlier. I stated that their book did not make this clear and was told that the "window of opportunity" was explained in the back of their book. Like most, if not all parents, i concluded that the system would only work if taught during this "window of opportunity" and that the ability would be retained. I asked whether the GD math was the result of visual stimulation methods used to promote optic nerve development on brain injured children and that their success might have been the result of their children falling on the autistic spectrum. The lady didn't give a detailed answer but did state that some autistic children might retain the ability.
Looking forward to your comments, Chris.

[KL]

Thanks very much for your input, Chris1, karma to you!

What you said about what the GD people told you is quite shocking, though, and is certainly news to me (probably to most of us here too).

[Chris1]

If a young mind can recognize quantity as claimed, then the GD program is basically labeling quantity rather than teaching quantity recognition. Quantity presented in an organized manner as apposed to a random presentation should achieve the same result-that is attach a name to the quantity. Child research seems to indicate that children can reliably recognize quantities up to 5. It might be worth considering presenting quantity on cards containing no more than 10 items/spots. The spots could be arranged vertically and two colors used to separate quantities greater than 5.  Quantity 10 for example could be represented by 5 blue followed by 5 red spots. Numbers like 33 would then have to be constructed by placing 3 ten cards and a 3 card onto the floor.
 The Soroban abacus represents quantity with a 5 bead and 4 unit beads and the above suggested presentation of quantity could progress to a visual representation that matched the Soroban without the distractions of the other beads.
I will attempt to send a power point of 1-100 based on the Soroban. Please refer to my earlier message regarding a recent telephone conversation that i had with a lady from the GD team.   

[DomanMom]

Chris1: I commented on your other post here, http://forum.brillkids.com/teaching-your-child-to-read/reading-and-maths/msg8374/#msg8374, and as I said in that post, I find it interesting that you say that the GD team themselves said the ability would be lost past age three, considering that they still teach this method of mathematics training in their International School's Early Development Program and still sell and promote books and products teaching this method of training. Even now you can go to their website and purchase How to Teach Your Baby Math, they're having a sale which includes dot cards, or you can sigh up for their week-long course which includes an entire day on teaching math via dot cards. One would wonder why they would be openly selling and promoting materials that they know don't work and say are pointless and without results.

And again like I said in my other post, my son is three-and-a-half and still can recognize quantity and does instant equations in his head from square roots to fractions to long sequences of division. And I can tell you that he is nowhere near the autistic spectrum. We do practice every day though and as I have said before, my speculation is that perhaps the brain synapses that are responsible for this type of quantity recognition die from lack of use in most children who began the program but didn't much follow through. It is a perplexing dilemma as to why there is such a high failure rate with this program but, I know with certainty that it CAN work because I have seen it time and time again with my own eyes with my own son and nephews. It's an interesting question, hopefully the answer can be known soon.

[rixu]

i too use this Daman maths method since my daughter is six. she is enjoying it too. but i want know wether i need to show her signs ( i mean when i say plus do i need to show her addition sign)

[DomanMom]

Chris: one more question, may I ask how old your children were when you began math, how long you did the math program, and how far you got with it?

-Did you just teach quantity, or did you also do equations?
-How far did you get with quantity? All the way through one hundred? Fifty? Twenty?
-Did you do the entire recommended program including two weeks each of addition, subtraction, multiplication, division, as well as moving onto three- and four-step equations, sequences, fractions, number personalities, and simple algebra?
-When and how did you teach numerals? How far did you get with teaching numerals? Did you do the entire program for numerals which includes comparing numerals with dot cards (showing, for example, 23 = [dot card with 23 dots on it])?
-How long did you continue with the entire program? Six months? On-again, off-again for several years? Every day for several years?

-Also, what abilities did your children show? You mentioned that your three children "appeared to be able to recognize quantity" but did they ever progress to arithmetic?
-How old were each of your children were when they began, how old they were when they stopped, and at what point did they "lose" their ability? May I also ask how old they are now (how long ago was it)?
-When they "lost" their abilities, what form of mathematics training did you adopt? Did you do anything at home or did they simply re-learn math when they got to school?

I hope that this isn't too tall of an order of questions, I just really hope that you could answer these so that is can give all of us an insight on why. Why are so few families successful with the Doman math? Why have we heard so many times of children who "appeared to be able to recognize quantity" but their ability suddenly just vanished? Where are all of the older children who were trained on Doman math? As the first member of this forum who I have come across who has had experience with this program (tried it and it didn't work), it would be absolutely wonderful if you could give us some insight on what you did, how you did it, and how long you did it so that we can learn from you.

As I mentioned before, I am extremely puzzled at the failure of this system for so many families. However my speculation is that perhaps just teaching quantity for a few weeks and not continuing has proved insufficient. Perhaps many families started the program, their children demonstrated that they were learning and understanding the quantity (and perhaps even a small amount of arithmetic), but the parents discontinued the program short of completion and the child's brain synapses that had just started to develop end up dying off because of lack of use. It really, to me, seems the only logical explanation because how can a two-year-old be happily enjoying algebra, sequences, can instantly tell the difference between 99 and 98 dots, be solving arithmetic equations in no time flat that would leave most adults reaching for the calculator, suddenly one day wake up to find that, "Oh, today is his third birthday, all of his understanding of math and quantity is now erased from his brain!" The human brain just doesn't work like that, but with the kind of testimonies I have seen so many times, one might be led to believe that that is the only "explanation" - they simply "lost" their ability.

As far as I know, mine is the only testimony in this forum at the moment that attests to a success with the Doman math program. And with all that we've done with it, I find it a little hard to swallow that my son's fate is to just one day "lose" his ability as if an alarm clock went off that tells his brain to erase his incredible understanding of numbers. I really hope that you can shine some light on your experience so that perhaps we can learn something from you to help put the pieces together in this mysterious puzzle.

One more thing I thought I would add, I have heard of adults who can still perceive quantity, so I know that it is possible. One testimony comes from the lady who authored childandme.com. In the section on Doman Math she writes "The greatest encouragement for me is my own husband. Even without any dot system, or Rainman's disorders, he managed to retain this amazing ability: if you show him a card with 98 dots, he knows that there are 98 dots without counting! Number of grapes on a plate, or people in the room - he is never mistaken by more then 2. And, yes, he's been taking special classes for kids gifted in math for years. So, why not help our kids to enjoy this amazing science?" It has also been mentioned before that people with autism often have this ability even though they have not had training. One other thing I have heard is that pre-numeric shepherds were able to tell how many sheep there were in their flock, simply by glancing at them. So I do believe that it is very possible to help our kids retain this part of their brain that makes instant quantity recognition possible.

Hope you're willing to share your experience with us, Chris, I know we would all benefit!

[DomanMom]

rixu: you do not need to show the addition sign, simply say "one" (show the one card), "plus two" (show the two card), "equals three!" (show the three card). Symbols such as +, -, =, etc. are introduced later in the program.

[Chris1]

Elizabeth,
I realize that my answer was probably not as detailed as anticipated. I can confirm that i completed the program and was careful to only introduce numerals at the appropriate stage. I wish everyone success with their children.

[tatianna]

Chris
what do you mean you completed the math program?
could you go in to more detailed about how far you got?
and how are your kids at math today?
thank so much

[DomanMom]

Elizabeth,
In reply to your request for details regarding how i taught the GD maths to my children. My children are currently 17, 14 and 11. I started the GD maths sometime around 20 months with my eldest daughter, 10 months with my youngest daughter and from birth with my son. Obviously in the case of my son, it was initially a program of visual stimulation. I constructed quantity cards 1-14 and ensured that the spots were very large. I appreciated that he would struggle to see outline, so i used black dots on white card to provide appropriate contrast/intensity. The cards were shown regularly throughout the day and i was careful to ensure that he had adequate time to locate and focus on the card. At this stage the goal was to stimulate the visual pathways. I concentrated on a different card each day and showed the card 10 or more times during the day. Sam clearly enjoyed seeing the cards and it appeared to be a promising start. Once i was sure he could focus with ease i started to use the 1-100 set that i had purchased. The set comes with a list of equations on the reverse of each card. I was careful to follow the steps as outlined in the book with all my children. I appreciated the need to present the information quickly and was not tempted to go over old cards. There was no need as the earlier cards were reviewed during the Equations and Problem Solving stages. My children appeared to be able to recognize quantity as previously discussed. I could go into a lot more detail, but basically i followed the instructions in the book.
P.S. i have not ,as yet, received a reply to my email.

Chris,

Could you please clarify a few more things? Thank you for your previous reply.

Please forgive me but I am really quite confused at the answers you are giving about your experience with the math program. Like I said in the above post, I just cannot comprehend how a child could be happily enjoying math, can pick a card with 98 dots on it from a pile of 97, 99, 96, and 100, can instantly add, subtract, multiply and divide any number, can solve fractions, simple algebra equations, knows symbols for greater than and less than as well as all other math symbols and knows how they are used, puts together equalities and inequalities, can do complex sequences, AND ALSO has learned all the numerals from 0 to 100 and beyond, has compared those numerals to dot cards and used them in equations and has mastered the link between true numbers (dots) and the symbols we use for numbers (numerals), how a child who can do all that can one day wake up to find that he simply "lost" his abilities because yesterday was his third birthday. This is why I am asking if you could please specify if your children were ever able to do arithmetic and if so, how much (addition? subtraction? fractions? algebra?)?

I would also ask that you could give me a little more clarity in how long and how far you went with the program. The reason I am so confused is because for me, when I began the math program I'll be the first to admit that I thought it was crazy. I didn't know how it would work, didn't know if it would work, and didn't know when it would work, all I knew is that I hoped that it did work because I had everything to gain and nothing to lose if this man's claims were really true. I'll also be the first to admit that when we began the program, I tested him too much and he became disinterested. However a few months later I started back up again with some new ideas and a more easy-going mindset, and he succeeded wonderfully. However, even with the mindset of no testing and being more laid back, I still needed to have some proof that it was working because if I was just flashing cards and it wasn't doing any good, I wasn't going to waste my time. So every once in a while I provided problem-solving opportunities to see if he was understanding what I was teaching him, and he was, so I moved onto the next thing, provided opportunities to see if he was understanding, then moved on again. My persistence about requesting the details of your program come from the fact that I just cannot even begin to imagine how one could have the motivation to do a program that they know isn't working, where they can't even see any results at such a "crazy" idea that babies can do math. I can see going through the quantity cards and maybe even going through step two (introduction to equations) but for one to have the motivation to go through the ENTIRE math program (which would take over a year) when there is no evidence that it's working (the child never showed any understanding of arithmetic) is just a little bit hard for me to understand. If that was the case and you spent a year teaching your first child all the way through the math program without testing, without ever getting any feedback on the problem-solving session, well then good for you and that is wonderful that you had such dedication! But the thing that puzzles me the most is how you could spend so much time teaching your first child math, and they didn't learn anything from it except that they "appeared to be able to recognize quantity", my question comes in at why would you repeat a failed system with your second child? And when it failed to produce any results for your second child, why would you again repeat a failed system with your third? There is three years between each of the children so certainly you would have known the failure of the system by the time it was time to teach the second child in line. You said that the abilities were lost by their third birthdays so what motivated you to continue with a program that you saw didn't work?

I think I may be repeating myself but I would really appreciate some clarification with a little more details of the program. Could you please clarify that, yes or no, you did indeed do the entire math program all the way including quantity recognition, introduction to arithmetic, three- and four-step equations, fractions, sequences, greater than and less than, equalities and inequalities, simple algebra, and then introduction to numerals, comparisons of numerals with numbers, and then equations with numerals? And could you please clarify what abilities your children demonstrated in arithmetic, whether or not they were ever able to answer all the thousands of problem-solving opportunities you must have presented them with (if you went through the entire program). Could you please also clarify how old your children were when they lost their abilities and what motivated you to continue the system with your younger ones after it became obvious that the older ones had lost their abilities and the program was of no use? Also, before you had mentioned (I think it was actually in a PM) that you did not believe that the program was useless. Did you see any benefits to your children at all from the Doman math and also, what method did you adopt after you gave up on Doman? How old were your children when you gave up on Doman?

I ask in advance that you please forgive my persistence, as I usually am not so adamant. But this is an issue that is very close to my heart and I would ask that you please consider giving the most detailed response that you can. I have seen such a high failure rate with this program and am desperate for every possible bit of information I can get as to why there is such a high failure rate. On one end I have heard of many people who tried it and gave up, and on the other hand there are the people who say they did the program but their kids just mysteriously "lost" their abilities. It is the ones who mysteriously "lost" their abilities that I am most interested in, and I ask that you please give as much detail as you can since your story is one that is of most interest to me (and the rest of this forum, I'm sure). Hopefully, if you could take the time to answer in detail the specifics of what you did with your own children, it could shed some light onto this difficult puzzle and give some hope to the rest of us who are just starting the journey in this uncharted territory. After giving us such a disheartening story about the failure you experienced with the program years ago I ask that you could please give us all a little taste of hope by letting us know the details of what you did so that we can learn from you? I thank you so much for your time and your involvement in this forum and wait eagerly for your detailed reply. Thank you again for your time!

[KL]

One more thing I thought I would add, I have heard of adults who can still perceive quantity, so I know that it is possible. One testimony comes from the lady who authored childandme.com. In the section on Doman Math she writes "The greatest encouragement for me is my own husband. Even without any dot system, or Rainman's disorders, he managed to retain this amazing ability: if you show him a card with 98 dots, he knows that there are 98 dots without counting! Number of grapes on a plate, or people in the room - he is never mistaken by more then 2. And, yes, he's been taking special classes for kids gifted in math for years. So, why not help our kids to enjoy this amazing science?" It has also been mentioned before that people with autism often have this ability even though they have not had training. One other thing I have heard is that pre-numeric shepherds were able to tell how many sheep there were in their flock, simply by glancing at them. So I do believe that it is very possible to help our kids retain this part of their brain that makes instant quantity recognition possible.

That is very encouraging!

btw, what a wonderful dialog that's developing.  Thanks for all your input Chris, and your questions, Liz. I'm sure everyone is following this with great interest!

[Chris1]

Elizabeth,
i have not stated that the GD math system wouldn't work and even if the ability to recognize quantity is lost,  it is feasible that the necessary neural pathways to perform rapid math would remain. If you ask a fluent reader to explain how they read they would simple state that they can. It is possible that the  mental manipulation of quantity develops to the stage where  the entire process takes place at a subconscious level.
Unfortunately i did not keep detailed records of my attempt to teach maths but can confirm that i taught quantity 1-100 and that all of my children appeared to be able to recognize quantity. I have previously stated that i now suspect that they might have been responding to gestural cues. I followed the process as detailed in the book and yes there were occasions when i had to find ways to maintain their interest. Older babies have their own agenda.
I introduced numerals at the appropriate stages and progressed to equations, fractions ,inequalities, greater than and less than etc. I am unable to state with any certainty when i abandoned the approach with my children-sometime after their third birthdays. It is possible that i spent too much time showing quantity and insufficient time on the later numeral problem stage. Once i realized that they were unable to recognize quantity i effectively abandoned this approach. I was unable to detect any significant  benefit from having carried out the process-they could  reliably recognize 1-12 and understood the concept of greater and less than.
 I appreciate that it might seem odd that i would use the system again once it had failed, but i figured that i had nothing to lose. At worst an approximate understanding of quantity would be achieved. I must have spent at least a year showing quantity cards to each of my children. I continued in the case of my son until beyond his third birthday.
If the premise that all babies can perceive quantity is true, then teaching GD maths should be very easy and effective.

Has anyone else phoned and asked whether the ability to recognize quantity is retained? Can they provide evidence of older children demonstrating the ability to perform rapid mental calculation-ideally division as most other types of calculation can be taught effectively using other methods.

[DomanMom]

I introduced numerals at the appropriate stages and progressed to equations, fractions ,inequalities, greater than and less than etc. I am unable to state with any certainty when i abandoned the approach with my children-sometime after their third birthdays. It is possible that i spent too much time showing quantity and insufficient time on the later numeral problem stage. Once i realized that they were unable to recognize quantity i effectively abandoned this approach.

I appreciate that it might seem odd that i would use the system again once it had failed, but i figured that i had nothing to lose. At worst an approximate understanding of quantity would be achieved. I must have spent at least a year showing quantity cards to each of my children. I continued in the case of my son until beyond his third birthday.

Chris, thank you so much for your reply. I think I am starting to get a little bit more of an idea of what your math program looked like and you have been very kind in responding.

I am hesitant to continue pressing with questions, but please forgive me as I ask once again one last question, as I am still slightly confused on this single issue: were any of your children ever able to demonstrate an understanding in arithmetic?

You have mentioned that they appeared to be able to recognize quantity, but the question I am most curious about is whether or not they were ever able to respond to any of the hundreds of problem-solving opportunities you must have presented them with, that is if I am understanding you correctly and you followed the instructions exactly as the book recommends as you have said you did.

I realize that I am going to be repeating myself here, but please humor me as I am desperately seeking some clarification and understanding. According to the book, you would spend about 8 - 10 weeks teaching quantity and equations. After the first two weeks or so you would teach addition (while at the same time teaching numbers 21-40), then after two weeks of that you would be teaching subtraction (while at the same time teaching numbers 41-60), then after two weeks of that progress to multiplication, etc. If you followed the instructions in the book exactly then teaching quantity and equations would take, at most, 10 weeks. After you completed that stage you would have moved onto problem-solving, which at that point you would know whether or not your child understood addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division because as I mentioned before, the problem-solving stage involves showing the child three equations and allowing him to choose the correct answer to a fourth equation if he wishes to do so. It is during the problem-solving stage where you introduce three- and four-step equations, greater than and less than, equalities and inequalities, number personalities (square numbers, triangular numbers, hexagonal numbers, etc.), fractions, and simple algebra. The problem-solving stage would take a minimum of 15 weeks if you did everything recommended in the book, and during this time you certainly know whether or not your children were able to do arithmetic. During the final two stages of the program you would be teaching numerals and then equations with numerals.

From your last reply, I am understanding that you taught quantities 1-100 for about a year, then taught numerals, then taught problem-solving such as arithmetic (and fractions, algebra, etc.)? Could you please confirm if I am understanding this correctly? Is this formula (quantities, numerals, arithmetic and problem-solving) correct, or did you do it according to the book's program as I described above (which is: quantities and introduction to arithmetic simultaneously, then problem-solving, then numerals and equations with numerals)  And also I am confused about when you taught arithmetic: did you teach arithmetic during the time you were teaching quantity, or did you start teaching it after you taught numerals during your "problem-solving" stage? If you could please answer those last two confusions I would be absolutely thrilled, thank you so much for your reply. And of course the last question which I mentioned previously is whether or not your children were ever able to demonstrate an understanding of arithmetic. Thank you again so much for your input and I look forward to hearing from you about these final clarifications.

P.S. this was a very good point thanks for pointing that out!

i have not stated that the GD math system wouldn't work and even if the ability to recognize quantity is lost,  it is feasible that the necessary neural pathways to perform rapid math would remain. If you ask a fluent reader to explain how they read they would simple state that they can. It is possible that the  mental manipulation of quantity develops to the stage where  the entire process takes place at a subconscious level.

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