Math supplement for advanced 3-year-old (almost 4)?

[aangeles]

P.S.

This one popped up on my Amazon "Customers Bought This Too" list after I ordered Fibonaccci: http://www.amazon.com/Mathematicians-Are-People-Too-Stories/dp/0866515097/ref=pd_cp_b_3. There are two volumes. I think Ella will like them too. If they are still too advanced for her, she will eventually grow into them.

[sonya_post]

@aangeles & @ manda,

I get to these threads so late in the game...aargh.

My 2 cents on math and this is from having a gifted 16 year old that I have homeschooled.

Saxon - you will find that Saxon is an excellent producer of students who pass standardized exams. If you have a child who is thinking - this program is going to be torture starting about math 6/5. Maybe it won't if the child is 4, but if you want a child who can think about math and understands numbers and how to solve problems that they've never encountered skip Saxon. Plus the repetitive drill drives many kids nuts. Saxon was a huge source of consternation in our family. My son took Algebra 1 starting the end of 5th grade and beginning of 6th. He got an 97 in the class. We had to retake it with AoPS because he really didn't understand Algebra at all.

I would recommend Khan Academy - it's online and free. If you don't want to use Khan, then I'd think about moving her on in Jones and also checking out Art of Problem Solving. AoPS website http://www.artofproblemsolving.com/. When we switched my son promised to love me forever (he forgot about that the next day , but there was a promise). They are very good and helping you plus they have just put out a new elementary curriculum. This is not like other curriculum. What I think Dr. Jones material lacks in application, AoPS does not. They deal with only gifted math students. I love their stuff. You need to go on the site to understand what I am talking about.

I will also mention my other choice of MEP http://www.cimt.plymouth.ac.uk/projects/mep/default.htm  for much the same reason. It is one thing for a child to be able to manipulate numbers and plug them into an equation to solve it but it is another set of skills entirely to be able to take unfamiliar problems and apply current knowledge to solve those problems. The charge often leveled against child prodigies is that they are simply great poll-parrots. It need not be so, it just means we are so enamored with their ability to add long strings of numbers, play complex musical pieces, read at a 6th grade level in kindergarten that we forget to teach them other skill sets. Statistically, the most gifted not the most successful. We just need to be aware of the pitfalls. MEP is very much about thinking through a problem.

So, I level my charge against Saxon and vote for any of the others. Depending on your current goals. BTW- this does not mean I don't like JG. I love it and we use it. As a child gets along there needs to be more.

[sonya_post]

BTW - I just realized that Beast Academy is AoPS.....so ya'll have my approval and huge approval on that one. I love their stuff.

[busyparent]

I absolutely agree with sonya. I have use saxon 5/4 and 6/5 with my two oldest daughters, and they both Hate saxon. They will pass their math test ,but wouldnt know how to apply what they learn in real life situations.

I would recommend professor b
http://www.profb.com/Home.aspx

[Mandabplus3]

I don't disagree with your comments on Saxon at all!  Yes it's rote, drill and practice. But it does a good solid job of it. I don't use it as an only program. It doesn't encourage enough higher order thinking. It would indeed be torture for a truely gifted child! ( making a note of the difference between gifted and well taught here)
My daughter who uses Saxon loves practicing skills until they are perfect. She loves being able to do speed math. She is also systematic and a program that constantly made her think would drive her nuts. HOWEVER there are many questions in saxon that do make her think through problems. Because there isnt enough of them we do use MEP along side it and IXL for all the bits in the Australian corriculum Saxon doesn't cover. The problem with MEP is there isn't enough of it! My kids zoom through pages and pages at a time. Yes they make her think but if I keep giving her the next level up she will soon be either out of work to do or it will be beyond her in no time. I give her word problems as we go about daily life too. The reason I like Saxon is that kids in school don't get enough actual time "doing sums" they couldnt come out with solid math ability given the small amount they do in class.
It certainly isn't an ONLY program solution, but it does get results. ( DO only programs exist?  )
I suspect Ella will enjoy zipping through saxon as she enjoys textbook work. I wouldn't recommend it for her age now and wouldn't give it to very many kids below age 6. just suggesting that she grab the free Resourse while it's available for a later option.
Don't know enough about Jones to compare, but perhaps Dr Jones might consider adding an extra practice book to each level? Would that solve the problem?

[sonya_post]

Jones suffers from the same problem that Saxon has. However, Jones is not set up the same way that Saxon is set up. So a child isn't spending years covering bits and bits of the same material and repeating it ad nasuem. My comments on Saxon only apply to the higher levels. Their early elementary stuff is great. But I suspect that Ella is past that. Jones covers arithmetic quickly. It covers all the bases and does so thoroughly and completely in about 3-4 years. So if started in kindergarten your child would be finishing algebra 1 by 3rd or 4th grade depending on how fast you use it. Ella would get there sooner than that. So by the time Jones would get annoying to a child they are finished with it.  In Jones, the blessing of it is that while it is all rote memorization, it moves in steps. So after you master a step you move on. Each step is built on the previous one. There is also memory training, which the kids like. About the time your child needs a thinking program they are ready for a thinking program. Dr. Jones is aware of the limitations of his program and is working on adding more material to what he already has. However, as it is, I think it serves it's purpose well.

Saxon was designed to get failing American children to pass standardized tests. It wasn't designed to make math students. It does that very well. However, when you get into the higher levels it takes so long to teach anything that your child won't have time for other curriculum. But, if you don't have a child who wants to understand why they are doing what they are doing....in others words, is not a math student, Saxon is probably a great fit. They will get high scores on college entrance exams. It is going to be around 6/5 that problems begin. We kept using it through Algebra 1 because I thought the problem was my child. It's not just my child with the problem. I did mention this in my comments that I'm not sure how any of this applies to children who are 4. Perhaps Saxon is perfect - but your expectation, if using Saxon, should not be a child who understands math. But a child who can solve given math problems well. And maybe, for our kids who are taught early, this is what will work. I'm pretty sure Ella can handle it. All of this is uncharted territory for us - maybe my criticism of Saxon only applies to kids who are around 8-10.

Our plan with our little guy is to complete Jones by the end of kindergarten or First grade. Use some MEP in there for beginning logic and train him on the abacus for addition and subtraction. Then start AoPS & Khan Academy. AoPS (makers of Beast Academy) is all thinking.You are correct about MEP and Singapore - both have same issue - they do not drill the basic skills. But that is easy to fix on your own.

And you are right that there isn't just "one" math program or any program. But I do think knowing your goals, your child and the pitfalls of each program ahead of time helps you know which ones to pick.

[sonya_post]

Manda,

BTW -  I always appreciate your advice. You have a way of picking through the problem and finding the issue. Still with Soft Mozart - a little bit everyday. That has really changed how I approach what we do.

[nadia0801]

Thank you for the very helpful review of those math programs manda and sonya_post!

I just found a great site that has mini math instructional videos. It's a sister-site of AoPs and has around 24 videos that covers math topics from pre-algebra to statistics! It's perfect for visual learners such as my 3-yo who's beginning algebra (she loves symbolism and finds it quite interesting that x and y can represent number values).

Here's the site:

http://mathcounts.org/minis

Here's another link with much more topics:
http://www.artofproblemsolving.com/Videos/index.php?type=prealgebra

aangeles, have you ordered Beast Academy? How long did it take to arrive in Phil?

[nee1]

You are correct about MEP and Singapore - both have same issue - they do not drill the basic skills. But that is easy to fix on your own.

Sonya,
Are you saying MEP and Singapore Math are in the same league, i.e., that Singapore emphasizes logic skills as much as MEP? I thought Singapore was more in the league of Saxon.

[sonya_post]

Singapore and Saxon are nothing alike. Not really.

John Saxon (I am not familiar with their recent material - I do know they introduced some "new math") intended to provide a program to get American students to pass standardized exams. Everyone must know by now that Americans are severely mathematically challenged. As Manda mentioned, Saxon is a drill the skills program, just like Jones Geniuses, however, unlike Jones Geniuses it uses a spiral approach so there is constant drill throughout the year. In the early years Saxon uses some wonderful ways to teach things like money, borrowing and other skills. It is manipulative intensive and a fairly good program. Jones Geniuses most of what Saxon does only quicker plus some stuff you aren't going to get anywhere else. While Saxon spirals in JG you don't move on till mastery. When your child hits Saxon 5/4 (which will be quickly for some of our children) Saxon merely teaches a child how to solve particular problems. It does not teach why they are doing it or why it matters or how to apply what they are learning. You an do the same thing in JG in less than 1/2 the time. However, as Manda mentioned, we are dealing with very young children - none of these programs were written for little kids, so maybe this is exactly what the kids need until they are ready to tackle more logic at the age of 5-8. I don't know as mine is not even 2 yet. My oldest is 16, gifted and far above his peers in school but my little guy has him beat hands down.

Singapore Math, which is obviously based on the Singapore model, and MEP, which is based on the Hungarian model, are very similar. Both programs teach the how's and why's of math. I do know that the Singapore model was considered when writing MEP.  Both programs get children comfortable manipulating numbers. They require children to take what they know and solve problems they haven't come across. However, there really isn't a point in doing either program unless you use the teacher's material as well. Most of what a child learns is in the manuals. That makes them VERY parent intensive.  I can see where some of our children will find much of the material in the early years boring. We have done a lot of the MEP reception year stuff (kindergarten in the US) with my 1 year old. So if you are starting with an older child perhaps 4 or so, you will run into a problem that aangeles and manda have with their children - zipping through lots of material. But again, you really need to do the teaching material not just the workbooks. For the record I think MEP is a better program than Singapore but there is a boat load of printing to deal with. However, you cannot beat Singapore for the word problems. Children love them. Neither of these programs are going to teach your children mastery of the basic math functions (addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division) it is up to you to supplement that if you think it is important. Which I do.

If you are considering what to do with your children, I'd pick up a Singapore workbook, compare it to MEP - they even have a similiar "feel" to them. See that you think. Saxon shouldn't be ruled out in the early years, but if you have a child like Ella, I might pick something else.

[sonya_post]

nee-

I think this a great overview of Singapore/MEP from a mom who has used both extensively. Compared to Saxon - which is rote until the end.

Since you have used Singapore, can you give me some specific
 differences between the two programs and why you changed? I was
 showing a friend MEP and she said it looks much like Singapore,
 which her kids are using. Since you have changed, obviously it's
 not totally the same.

Linda,
I will try. I really like Singapore. I have been using for about 6
years now, and it has served our family very well, imho. I think I
will still think that Singapore has the best word problems I've yet
to see.

Singapore challenges to think about math concepts and apply them. It
does not involve rote learning. It works on teaching you connections.

MEP also does that, but goes even further. It introduces concepts a
lot earlier than Singapore does. For example, I introduced my Y1 son
to inequalities today in lesson 7. My twins almost in Singapore 2
have not seen those symbols yet. In fact, I've had to work with my
dd who is doing Y5 of Singapore, and doesn't really remember having
been introduced to them. She understands the concepts, just hasn't
been introduced to the symbols.

Today my dd was working on lesson 7 of MEP 5, and working with
putting inequalities on a number line. Singapore doesn't really even
touch this.

MEP allows students to really investigate the concept that there are
ways of arriving at the answers in a way that Singapore doesn't.
Even in the upper levels of MEP, hands on manipulatives and concrete
objects are used to explain abstract concepts.

Just the lesson of the different ways of writing one. You won't find
anything like that in Singapore. It is really stimulating mentally.

In Y2 the students were filling out a graph with the rule of there
were 3 more chestnuts than acorns. Sometimes they had to figure out
the number of acorns, sometimes the number of chestnuts, and for the
last section, they could make up their own numbers. Then they were
asked what the rule was, how they could express that rule (at least 3
different ways), and to write an equation for it. They were using
addition and subtraction sentences, and inequalities to do this. My
dh basically noted they were being taught functions. You won't find
this type of depth in Singapore.

Singapore is a great program. It just isn't as deep. It doesn't
challenge them to think as much. Now maybe, if I used the TM's -
which I don't, it might be more similar. But the textbook and the
workbooks are pretty much straight math, although they do teach
strategies, and as I said, so far their word problems are
unparalleled, imho. However, students can go from Singapore 6 into
Algebra. It prepares them that well. There are a couple of areas
that are not covered, but easily taught, and may be covered in the
beginning of an algebra book.

But my kids doing MEP are already doing graphing, exponential
notation (not covered in lower level Singapore), discussing set
theory, natural numbers, etc. I am amazed at what they are being
exposed to. I know my dh (the science/math guy) is impressed with
this program.

I do confess we have had some crying and gnashing of teeth, and the
"I can't do this" but they progress beyond that and realize that they
can do this, and they are not asking to stop. I think they are
really being challenged in a good way. Maybe I should have started
them a bit lower than I did, but time will tell. I think they can
handle it, but I may be wrong.

Christina

I hope tht helps.

[Mandabplus3]

I read that review a few months ago and it made little impact on me then, I just reread it now and it makes SOOO much more sence in the context of this discussion  thanks!
Sonya I am glad to hear your opinions! It's great to hear other views on programs especially from someone who has used them extensively. We are so far only using 5/4 so now I know to keep an eye out on the boredom factor as we progress up the levels. However I particularly like the spiral repetition nature of Saxon. For the simple reason that by revisiting and review in a spaced mannor the knowledge is cemented into memory permanently. I want them to remember as adults how to calculate the circumference of a circle ( how many of you can remember it right now?....only those of you with middle school kids  ) without looking it up. I want them to drill the facts until they are memorized. Aiming for mastery.  I want them to pass those exams with flying colors because that is what opens doors. I know at times this isn't going to be much fun for them  But I will aim to make it as fun as possible. So far my kiddo doesnt mind
 However I also what them to know how to think, solve problems and manipulate numbers to find answers for themselves. So Saxon isn't an only solution for me.
I think it's important to have some clear goals. I might not use the same programs on all three kids. Plus my younger two are brighter in math then my child using Saxon. Actually they run in reverse order! Lol my son is about 3 years ahead, my middle one 2 years ahead, and my oldest 1 year ahead! Lol does that mean they got dumbed down by school? ( sadly I think this is actually the case )
Off to check out the links Nadia posted..they look very inviting!

[nee1]

Sonya,

I've heard of kids who did VERY WELL with Saxon, even going on to complete Math and Engineering Degrees at age 16, so I wondered about your review. Do you think your bad experience with Saxon and just 1 child might be directly transferable to all children? For example, you praised Jones Geniuses, but I've read reviews of parents on this forum who had horrible experiences with Jones Geniuses and had to drop the program completely. I feel what works well for one child might not work well for another.

I understand that Saxon may not teach as much logic skills as MEP, but I think that could be easily remedied by using Saxon and MEP together: Saxon for math mastery, MEP for logic and thinking. Using MEP on its own might not just work for all kids, I've seen the curriculum and wondered how a child could really master math using the method. I feel it may be good for logic, but not so much for mastery of important math concepts.

And I've searched for reviews on Saxon on Amazon, Google, homeschool forums, etc.,  (trust me, I really have searched), and most have found VERY good success with it. Saxon is incremental in approach, and I feel that approach enables the material to go into long term memory. And if it goes a little boring for the child, then the parent might zip through the material faster. For example, the boy I mentioned above, his father said he had finished the 4 Saxon books preceding Algebra 1 in just over a year. (That gives an indication of how bright/hardworking the child was). My intention is to use Saxon for solid mastery of math (I love mastery), MEP for logic, and IXL to ensure curriculum requirements are covered.  Your thoughts?

[sonya_post]

Nee1,

You have to do what is right for your family. You will certainly have all your basis covered. It is our experience, as well, that Saxon works. The question is, "Works for what?". My son finished Saxon Algebra 1 middle of 6th grade. He scored post high school on the math portion of Stanford Achievement Test. Saxon works for that. It produces mastery of certain skills. When we switched to AoPS we had to retake Algebra 1. He didn't have any idea what they were doing. He couldn't solve problems that were out of the standardized test box. Knowing that, if you are going to supplement, I think it will be ok. But if your child starts dallying with math or is making basic computational errors you might want to reconsider your plan. That is the great part about all this...you can change your plan.

As a side note - your friend has a gifted math student. It wasn't Saxon that produced that child. He was motivated. I find it hard to believe that any child can work through 4 Saxon books in one year doing all the problems. If you start skipping problems you miss the point of the spiral approach.

You are a good mom and you are aware of the limitations of these programs. You aren't going to let your child suffer through a program that isn't a match for them ( I did that - but I didn't know any better), One of the tips I got from Chris at AoPS - is to use math games and puzzles. www.mathisfun.com has some wonderful puzzles. You can then check what your child really understands about numbers.

BTW - I can imagine that JG would end up as horrible experience for some people. This are not your standard curriculum. Labor intensive and there isn't a daily schedule with the exact thing you are to do next. We love it. I've used it with my 23 month old who has mastered all his numbers to 20 forward and backward. Can accurately place the dots on the numbers and is just beginning to add and subtract. The concept is a bit difficult still. However M&Ms seem to help. I do daycare for a 3 year old with Down Syndrome and we use it for her as well. She attends preschool now and will till she enters kindergarten in 2 years. Math wise she could pass kindergarten. This is the perfect program for her. The social workers were hoping she could grasp 1-3 this year. Well, she has mastered 0-20 and has started adding and and subtracting numbers also. Math seems to be the hardest subject for DS children or at least it is according to her parents. But it isn't for everyone.

All this to say, you plan is probably just fine.

[nee1]

Sonya,

Thank you for your insights. I'm grateful.

Please, what are your comments on this combination: Singapore Math + MEP + IXL?
So, Singapore Math (for mastery), MEP (for logic and depth), IXL (for curriculum requirements). I've read about Singapore Math and it appears to be quite good too.

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