Question (or hypothesis if you will) about Anzan

[Chris1]

Hi Tom,

I didn’t say that using the Soroban would drain creativity and I apologise if any offence was caused by my earlier post. I had simply made the observation that the system is so effective that deviation from the taught algorithms was not necessary.
It does, however, seem evident that the Soroban does not promote creativity unless the child is encouraged to seek alternative ways to calculate answers.

Chris.

[Maquenzie]

Does arithmetic *have* to be creative?

I'm not saying it can't be, and I wholeheartedly believe any novel idea coming from a student should be protected and investigated (hey, some of them won't work).  But the investigation of that novel idea would be a creative endeavor that will likely deepen understanding.

For me, an ideal math program would teach the basics in a way that creates deep understanding and quick arithmetic skills (to free the student up to do the more creative work of upper level maths). And at the same time, allows (but does not expect) for innovation.

For me, I don't plan for the soroban to be the only tool we use for arithmetic. It seems to me to be a useful construct for at least rapid multi-digit mental addition and subtraction, superior to anything else I'm aware of. However, I also want my children to be exposed to other ways to represent quantity.  I think the soroban is useful for understanding place value, but that quantity is much more abstract.  And to show quantity, I like to have more available.  Also with multiplication, division, etc., I think there are other manipulatives that are perhaps easier for someone to understand and "see" the concepts than the soroban.  But it doesn't make the soroban bad at calculation.

Anyway, I really am only getting my feet wet with all of this, so take it with a grain of salt.

[PokerDad]

I really appreciate the discussion!

I would like to point out that I wasn't saying that Chris was calling out anything or anyone - Chris likes to make you think; and I believe this is a big value... and was engaging me as I asked more questions. LOVE IT.

Arvi, about the JonesGenius producing massive creativity... maybe it does, maybe it doesn't. My question was fallacious in nature. There was an implication (though maybe I took it too far) that soroban use was so rigid that it hindered the growth of creativity. Even if this were true, it wouldn't necessarily translate that JonesGenius (at the upper levels I'm mostly talking about here) would actually CAUSE (or foster) creativity.

BUT

I have a feeling that it does! (especially the younger stuff, with the manipulates)

I think Tom brought up some awesome points; there's no magic bullet anywhere, and just learning soroban or anzan may be an awesome way to learn how to calculate, but might not be enough ON ITS OWN to achieve the desired outcome (whatever that outcome is); there's no shortcut to becoming awesome at math: in calculating, understanding, blending with other things, applying, etc etc.

Needless to say, I'm very pleased with the discussion.... karma for everyone ITT!! yippee!

Oh... and Maquenzie, good points about the investigation. This is called depth of processing. If someone discovers or really has to process it, they tend to understand it better and remember it better than if it's just spoon fed. There's a whole movement in education around this, and in math also - but this cuts both ways, I don't think everything has to be discovered either... geesh, if we treated all knowledge this way, we sure wouldn't be advancing very rapidly

[Maquenzie]

Oh... and Maquenzie, good points about the investigation. This is called depth of processing. If someone discovers or really has to process it, they tend to understand it better and remember it better than if it's just spoon fed. There's a whole movement in education around this, and in math also - but this cuts both ways, I don't think everything has to be discovered either... geesh, if we treated all knowledge this way, we sure wouldn't be advancing very rapidly

I actually wrote more about it, but erased it in an attempt to stay on topic (ish..).  But, that was why I qualified it with a (but does not expect) innovation.  I think there can be a happy medium.  It would absolutely take forever if all knowledge had to be completely self-constructed. In my childhood, though, I "invented" a "new" way to subtract (actually quite similar to soroban which is one reason I love it so...I used number bonds of ten and worked from left to right without needing to make marks showing "borrowing"). I couldn't for the life of me pay attention in class lectures so I always made up my own ways to solve the problems (and it was fun!).  Well, I got in loads of trouble for not showing my work and on multiple occasions, accused of cheating. So, perhaps I have personal reasons for saying innovation should be encouraged and investigated. 

HOWEVER, not everyone is that into it, and I don't think every child should have to invent it for themselves....just that when it does occur, it should be protected, investigated, nourished. I think alternate algorithms are fun, but most people do not.  I also don't think they should be a part of the average math education.

[Maquenzie]

On the shortcut front, I fully expect it to be hard work.  The shortcut I guess I'd be looking for is making less mistakes in finding the right angle, approach, tools, etc...instead of finding out when it's too late. 

I've used 3 different phonics curriculums with my 5 year old.  If I had started with the one that we ended up settling on at the beginning, we'd be done by now.  That's the kind of "shortcut" I'm looking for.  I'd rather put all the time and effort into something that was more thoughtfully fitted for us.

But if there is some kind of magic shortcut, let me know that'd be awesome. 

[arvi]

In researching further on this topic, I came across the information about the book: The great mental calculators http://www.amazon.com/Great-Mental-Calculators-Psychology-Calculating/dp/0231056419/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top
Unfortunately, it is out of print. Maybe someone can find in their library.

[PokerDad]

YES!! They have it at my library... reserving it now

[arvi]

PokerDad, please share the summary of the book once you complete it. My questions at this stage are:
1. Which method of mental calculation is the best: abacus mental math or alorithmic mental math (may be balancing is the key here but still)
2. Which method has superior brain work-out exercises.

[PokerDad]

A little off topic, but I'm going through the Feynman book. I think it's chapter 3, but he just told a story of how he would do little magic shows and to end the show he would dip his hands into water and then into benzine, and then by "accident" brush up against the bunsen burner and light his hands on fire and then go around yelling.

I had to laugh out loud.

Why?

When I was a sophomore in high school, I secretly put ethanol on my hand and then accidentally reached across the bunsen burner to borrow this girl's pencil. Of course, she freaks when suddenly my hand catches on fire... I hold it up, looking at it curiously, and then shake it out (getting hot). Ha ha ha...
Did my tactic work?
She asked me to tolo after that, ha ha ha

Pretty funny and enjoyable book. Thanks for the idea Chris!

[seastar]

I've used 3 different phonics curriculums with my 5 year old.  If I had started with the one that we ended up settling on at the beginning, we'd be done by now. 

Totally off topic... just wondering what curriculum you are working on now (looking for all the shortcuts I can find)

[Soroban]

Hey Guys,

I really appreciate all the responses!

I thought I'd make a quick clarification: I know I said that there are no shortcuts but I firmly believe that there are more efficient and less efficient ways to achieve a outcome. For Soroban there is a standard efficient algorithm for calculations that I make sure every student learns.
But I consider that analogous to learning the rules of grammer and spelling. It's what you do with those rules (and the importance of breaking them at the right times) that can create poetry and novels and other art.

As for avoiding the big pitfalls that might really hurt a child's education, I'd really like to work with you to make sure we can avoid those. So, please ask away and I'll do my best (sometimes its just my opinion) to help!


Chris1
I didn't mean to sound defensive sorry if I gave that impression. As for creativity, I agree I think the creativity Soroban promotes isn't in the variety of calculation techniques. It can promote a form of creativity due to the practice of Anzan stimulating the visual part of the brain, and because of they way I structure my classes where I don't just give students a method to solve problems. I believe in the process of gamification as one of the best ways to teach. So I keep questions open ended and let kid's try to solve new types of problems using the techniques they can come up with. What I dont do is leave them to just their own devices. Eventually they will learn the most efficient methods (usually earlier in the process to avoid picking up bad habits).

Maquenzie
I think Soroban's pretty good at representing quantity as an abstraction. Although I initially teach it using solid references such as " your mom gave you 1 apple, then your dad gave you 2 apples, how many apples do you have?" Students quickly learn that the story doesn't have to be about apples. I think partly because my workbooks don't have anything referring to apples in it, just numbers.

As for multiplication and Division, I actually teach the basic concepts as stories just like addition and subtraction. Then when they understand what's going on I move them onto the Soroban to practice the mechanics of solving problems.

PokerDad
I'm really interested in that book as well, Looking forward to the updates!

[Maquenzie]

I've used 3 different phonics curriculums with my 5 year old.  If I had started with the one that we ended up settling on at the beginning, we'd be done by now. 

Totally off topic... just wondering what curriculum you are working on now (looking for all the shortcuts I can find)

The Ordinary Parent's Guide to Teaching Reading, but there are some other suggestions in the thread "What order do you teach phonics" thread, but perhaps you already know about (or posted in) that thread.  It looked like there might be some cheaper (free) and/or better resources. I haven't investigated then because I'm happy with what we have now.

[seastar]

Thanks for that, I had saved it into my wishlist based on that thread but I think I may just have to look at it again based on your recommendation

document.getElementById('recent_loading').style.display = 'none';document.getElementById('recent_page_box').style.display = '';

Page: 1/4  

Loading...

Members

• Total Members: 214769
• Latest: Meobi

Stats

• Total Posts: 110526
• Total Topics: 19136
• Online Today: 435
• Online Ever: 826
• (January 22, 2020, 12:09:49 AM)

Users Online

• Users: 0
• Guests: 364
• Total: 364