Recommendations for good Abacus program

[PokerDad]

What do you mean DS mental math?

I think if you're willing to be a bit creative and be flexible with your child, you can start teaching the principles at an any age. I believe the only thing you SHOULDN'T teach your child is to memorize math as "facts" It's one of the 2 most common reasons a student can't do the Soroban mental math (it's called Anzan)

So what you want to do is to let your child get so used to using a Soroban that it becomes easier for his mind to do the Soroban or Anzan than it is for him/her to use math facts. Then your child will use Anzan because it's easier, and it will be easier for him to do Anzan in a virtuous circle.

Tom,
Can you give me some examples of math facts that should not be taught prior to soroban training? If my child figures out that 2 apples added to 2 apples will always equal 4 apples, is that bad? I would hate to inadvertently thwart my own goal by doing something counter productive, so an explanation would be appreciated.

I'm going to want to pursue soroban training as soon as possible, but I do not know when that is. I think somewhere you may have mentioned the requisite is to be able to write down the numbers? what if stamps are used instead (having 10 stamps for each digit 0-9) to just stamp the answer? Or if I'm wrong about your requisites, please correct me.

Also to answer your question: DD = Dear Daughter, DS = Dear Son, DH = Dear Husband, SN = Special Needs are frequent abbreviations used around here. I don't see the point of using DS because typing out "son" is only one additional letter and doesn't require using the shift key, and therefore doesn't really save any time or effort and can lead to questions like yours (which will take a lot more time answering than the additional typed letter), LOL.

I've been practicing, and can sort of do problems in my head; just not that great at it/very slow. I still occasionally mess up carrying or borrowing across a few place values. I'm impressed that kids can get the hang of it so quickly.

[queriquita]

pokerdad, thanks for your post! i had similar questions and am looking forward to the answers too!

[Ayesha Nicole]

Hi Everyone.

My husband just told me about a colleague of his from Egypt, that will be training teachers for the abacus for use with younger children, under 10. 

I showed my husband this video and he was sooo impressed!:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/p7M6dRU80Rk&rel=1" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/p7M6dRU80Rk&rel=1</a>

I am interested in learning it for myself, and to teach/help my children. 

What is involved and what are your thoughts? 

Thanks. 
Ayesha

[iwini]

thanks for sharing the ideas and concern.

[Soroban]

Hi Guys,

Sorry I haven't updated in a while, I was taking a trip to Japan to help out at the Christmas Cup Soroban Contest.
There was over 1000 students between the ages of 3 to 52 competing for various titles.
I'll be updating pictures and videos soon, so please look forward to it.
    *sneak peak* The 3 year old was doing multiplication and division!!! 

To PokerDad,

When I said that certain math facts shouldn't be taught, it's based off my experience of how rote memorization can be detrimental to learning how to do Anzan correctly.
The best way I can describe it is to imagine a river carving a groove through dirt. The more water that flows through the groove will make it deeper and wider so that it becomes easier for more water to flow though it. In this case, if your son rote memorizes a math fact (ie. 1+1 = 2) he might want to keep using that skill since its easier for his brain to get the answer. This might make it harder for him to learn and use Anzan without some additional effort since that "groove" will be newer and less deep.
Of course as you've noticed yourself it's possible to rewrite old habits to make new "grooves" with effort.

I hope this helps,
Tom

[PokerDad]

Thanks for the answers!

I think I understand what you're getting at. There's a difference if I add two digits together in my head just from sort of knowing what they are, and visualizing the soroban while I mentally manipulate it. I'm a bit slower visualizing at the moment, and when I get to three digits, it's sometimes hard to remember how many beads there are in the middle (LOL)

Am looking forward to the videos from the trip.... but.... but...

I hope you have a way of getting a hold of the 3 year old's trainer. If you make a post around here that a three year old was doing multiplication and division (regardless of whether it was anzan or not), people are going to perk up and want to know what all went into it.
I know that I want to know...

curious to know the progression, when it started, and any unique factors that may or may not be duplicable

[Ayesha Nicole]

Hi everyone! 

Today, I had my first abacus lesson and was slightly intimidated.  After playing around with it, I can now count to 100 easily.  This is an online version at the bottom of this site to learn:

http://www.soroban.com/howto_abacus_eng.html

And the girls really liked these videos (cannot upload to the video gallery):

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/wD5ALPHQuC0&rel=1" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/wD5ALPHQuC0&rel=1</a>

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/SsioZdFSq3M&rel=1" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/SsioZdFSq3M&rel=1</a>

and some videos uploaded by Chris:  http://forum.brillkids.com/mgallery/?sa=search

I am now teaching the girls to count to 100, and they get it at 4 years 7 months!  I look forward to my next lesson tomorrow.  I think I can actually learn this to teach/help the girls - especially because I am a visual and tactile learner.   

@ momtobaby > Thanks for the links that will help us!   

@ Soroban > What do you think of this Soroban handbook?:  http://webhome.idirect.com/~totton/abacus/

[Soroban]

Hi guys,

PokerDad > The 3 year olds trainer was her mom. But to be perfectly honest that gives a really biased impression on her situation. Her older sister (I think she's 6) attends a Soroban school in Japan that currently has 1 student who holds the record for the youngest 10th Dan in the world, and the current record holder for the youngest 9th dan in the world (6 years old). Her sister isn't the record holder, but runs in the same general circle as them. Their teacher used to compete in international competitions and rank pretty well. So, if you want my opinion on how to get a 3 year old to learn multiplication, you just need to have incredibly dedicated parents and students who practice Soroban for 4 to 6 hours per day (more on the weekends) under the tutelage of a world ranking teacher.

Ayesha Nicole > I liked the videos for the most part. I just don't agree with the last in the series about the various techniques for moving the beads like the "flick. The website is ok for adults to read, but I've always felt like it's too dry to be used with kids meaningfully. I also think the explanations they give are geared towards an academic adult understanding of the Soroban. Which I think is very important to know, but may be overkill for a parent just trying to make sure their kids understand how to use an Soroban.

Anyway I'm really glad to be back.

Just in case you didn't see my other posts I've put up a new website with videos from my trip to Japan, please check it out to see the 3 year old in action.

http://www.learnsoroban.com/

Thanks,
Tom

[PokerDad]

Thank you Tom for the update and the answers to questions.

It seems like the world of competitive soroban is a bit different than what perhaps most of us would be seeking. It's nice to know the potential is there for really great math abilities.

9th Dan at 6 years old?? Wow.

What does a 6 year old 9th Dan do during math class? I have visions of "ugh... please teacher, can we get to the algebra equations already?"

The mother of the 3 year old is a bit inspirational if not also a bit over the top for what I'd want to do (and probably what most of us around here would want... which says a lot seeing as we're on a early learning site). I just can't imagine 4-6 hours of math per day at age 3.... or age 20 for that matter 

However, the point is that she was able to teach her child multiplication and division, and I should point out that the 3 year old handled the pencil quite nimbly. That's encouraging to know that these things ARE POSSIBLE. The question is how much of the surroundings, influence, practice, importance that's placed on it, etc is necessary to achieve some level of competency as opposed to mastery where the child enters a competition. I'm not against competition, I'm just not all that interested in it unless my child really loves to compete and it's a motivating device. Most people don't think of 3 year olds as competitive, but maybe I'm wrong about that [feel free to correct me everyone]

I also want to point out to everyone reading this thread that the older sibling in the video was doing the multiplication without using the abacus. It sat to the side as she worked through the problems mentally (you can see her using her fingers as she mentally works with the image in her mind), and we're not talking about basic multiplication here (such as 6x8); I'm pretty sure this was multi-digit multiplication. Maybe Tom can give us an example of a multiplication or division problem these kids were working through.

Tom, how much technique is necessary for success? You mentioned the video that talks about the flick... is it important to spend time initially learning the basic finger movements for optimized speed, or do you just jump in and start using the beads and worry about technique later?
Along those lines, I've wanted to know what sort of "warm up" drills the kids do. In some videos I've seen, the teacher instructs or talks about doing a drill or drills, but no one has ever put a drill on youtube or written down a drill. These kids would work through their drills to build speed. Perhaps you can give us an idea if there are drills that can be done, and what these would look like?

I've seen 10th Dan on youtube doing mind shattering math problems... but what's the difference between 1st, 2nd, 3rd... 9th, 10th Dan? Is it speed, accuracy, complexity, or a combination of these? If complexity plays a role, I'd be curious to see a problem that a 1st Dan can solve vs a 10th Dan... that would give us an idea of the capability of the abacus.

As for instruction; is there a way to break it down into step by step? Obviously everyone understands different concepts at different stages, but is there a basic outline? If it's not linear, then perhaps there are just "stages" that should be kept in mind??

Do you like using a soroban with the clearing mechanism? is one advised for kids, or just use a classic one that does not have it? Mine doesn't have it, and it's a pain to clear the darn thing and sometimes the beads move whenever I have to move the soroban from one spot to another, which then requires that I clear it out again (wasting time)

Thanks again! (hopefully my questions help you with your videos)

[sonya_post]

Here are a couple more link to add to the discussion. Both of these are for Soroban Abacus.


http://www.japansociety.org.uk/schools/resources/downloads/soroban-the-japanese-abacus/

And this one - http://www.sorobancymru.co.uk/   This site has a great abacus font  for making flashcards, worksheets, and LR/PPT files.

Both sites have workbooks and are full of stuff. You need to spend some time looking around.

[Soroban]

Hey Pokerdad,

Sorry I've been tardy with my responses. You just ask such good questions that I can't do it justice by writing a short dinky little response. I'm writing a detailed explanation of the Dan level system on my website and I'll update you when I'm done.

I'm currently getting ready for a Soroban contest in march (I'm entering this time) so i'll post my preparation drills as a guide to what might work for you.

I'll also make a post about the curriculum I use to teach Soroban. The stages of development and landmarks that I look for before moving on (also another post, see really great questions )

Finally about the mechanical Soroban vs non mechanical. I personally don't allow students to use a "onetouch" (mechanical) soroban until they get into the advanced level. It's partially a motivational decision (students feel like they earned a "onetouch" soroban and will work to get it) and partially to prevent students from messing themselves up (many kids accidentally erase their answers).

part of the reason you might be having difficulty resetting your soroban without the button is because you might have a "cheap" Soroban. I don't know exactly what you have, so I can't say for certain. But a lot of the lower-end Soroban's have beads that move erratically due to a combination of the weight of the beads, material they're made from and distance that the bead must/can move. To give you an idea of what I would consider Low-end: in my classes I use a Soroban that costs about $100 without the button. That's not a marked up price, it's almost at cost when we import them from Japan.

It's not to say it's impossible to learn Soroban without good equipment, but I believe that equipment should be "good enough" not to get in the way of learning. For me "good enough" is this quality of Soroban, any lower and I wouldn't be able to use it correctly.

Please look forward to my posts.

Tom

[Ayesha Nicole]

Good Afternoon.

I look forward to your posts Soroban. 

As you recall, I bought for my children the Pacchi and the US-100, (from http://www.kidenergy.com/abacus.html); and the soroban we received with the workbooks is plastic and can be seen here:  http://www.nurtureminds.com/soroban-abacus.htm

What do you recommend for them to use next from these choices?:

http://www.soroban.com/english/shopping/

Or do you recommend another source that we can order from?

Also, my children are in their 2nd year of a Montessori pre-school, with activity descriptions below:

http://www.infomontessori.com/mathematics/introduction.htm

Prior to pre-school last year, they learned Doman math and LM.  Last year in Pre-School 1, they were doing multiplication on the Pythagoras board (no idea what it is).  And I believe they are working on the decimal system now.  At home, I have them work through the Kumon workbooks, and have almost completed the 1st level (a diagram on the back of the books). 

http://kumonbooks.com/catalog/catalog_workbooks-numbers.aspx

I have them working on Numbers 1 - 30 for handwriting practice, and will work through the other 'numbers' books, but wonder when should I use the "simple addition" book with them?  Would it interfere with learning soroban? 

I began the first two lessons for the workbooks, and just received another set of books last night, and will begin again soon.  I am inclined to let them finish this workbook first (in the next week):

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/4774307033/qid=1126722986/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1?v=glance&s=books

and then begin where we left off.  Also, as I understand it, we should work through a lesson each week for 2 hours (I think?) and practice daily for 30 minutes.  But how should they practice?  And I did not quite understand how to set up simple 1 digit worksheets using this widget at the bottom of this link:

http://www.nurtureminds.com/worksheets/math.php

What do you recommend?  And do you teach via wiziq? 

Thank you. 

[aangeles]

Hi Tom!

I too am eagerly looking forward to reading your posts about

- the Dan level system
- the curriculum you use to teach Soroban
- stages of development and what you look for before moving to the next stage

I don't know how familiar you are with the soroban-teaching schools coming out of Malaysia, but is there any difference, as far as you know, in the way they teach soroban in the Japanese vs Malaysian schools? My daughter goes to a Malaysian-based school called SIP Academy: http://www.sipacademy.com/ It is a pretty big organization and they hold annual international competitions and such. I am curious if there is a significant difference between the Japanese schools and the Malaysian ones.

Also, can you recommend where I can get an abacus that would "live up to your standards?"  Or maybe can I order one from you (shipping to Chicago)? I think that having a good instrument is a fundamental and indispensable requisite in learning soroban, much like learning to play a musical instrument. It is certainly a worthwhile investment if one is serious about learning Anzan!

Lastly, I would like to thank you for sharing your knowledge and expertise with all of us here on this forum! Karma to you! 

[Soroban]

Hi guys,

I just wanted to update you about the Dan Level System.

Basically, the Dan Level System works by testing a students abilities to solve a number of problems in a set amount of time. The number of problems they can solve correctly determines their Dan Level. The Dan Level system is administered by the Zenkoku Shuzan Renmei. Unfortunately, their website is in Japanese so I’ve translated some of the basic information about Dan Levels. You can read all about it herehttp://www.learnsoroban.com/2012/01/01/dan/the-rules-of-engagement-a-basic-explanation-of-dan-tests-in-soroban/

I hope you enjoy it, and can leave me a comment on the article or this thread so I can help answer any other questions you might have. I would also love to hear from you, if you just liked the article

Thanks,
Tom

UPDATE: I goofed on the URL here is the right one http://www.learnsoroban.com/2012/02/06/dan/the-rules-of-engagement-a-basic-explanation-of-dan-tests-in-soroban/

Sorry about that,
Tom

[aangeles]

Great article, Tom! Thank you for sharing.

If I understood the article correctly, does it mean that, theoretically, it is possible to achieve 10th Dan even if you can't do Anzan (since you can choose to do 3 out of 4 of the optional sections (Anzan, Denpyo, Kaihou, or Word Problems)? Also, how is Kyu different from Dan and how do you determine the different Kyu levels?

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