Are some small children unable to subitize?

[nkawan]

Hi, I wonder if any of you experts out there can help me.
I have a 2 year 1 month son with whom I am trying to use the Little Maths program.  For a while, before he was 1, we used Doman flash cards and got to about 75 showing 5 numbers, 3 times a day.  As I never tested him I am not sure how much he really took in.  For the last 2 months we have been using Little maths but it really seems that he is not subitizing.  I have gone back to lesson 1 and started again as he is not interested in looking at the screen once there are over 10 icons.  He is also more interested in saying what the icons are (eg pizza, baby etc) so I have started manually changing the settings to show dots.  He likes to play the game where I hold up 2 flash cards and he points out a particular number but he can only distinguish up to 5 dots.  After that he just points randomly from one to another (or even both at once).  He does like numbers and counting (steps as we walk along for example) but he seems to think that the no. of icons on the screen and the number spoken are unconnected.
Is it worth continuing with the program or does he not have the ability to subitize?  Is it just that he hasn't made the connection between the spoken number and the number of icons?  Putting no.s in grid format doesn't make it any better.
(We are doing the reading and music programs too but he has no problems with these).
Many thanks for your help and suggestions.

[MamaOfWill]

Here's my personal view on things:

Fast flash is a right brain stimulation, whether you're going to flash pictures, words or dots.  I've read of people who feel that even though their children didn't gain anything from the flashing activities, they do show heightened right brain functionality later on, as in speed reading, photographic memory and in general above average creativity and ability to solve problems etc.  I've also heard of babies who COULD subitize and use dot cards perfectly well to add numbers 1..100, but never carried that ability over to using numbers or metal math.  Cases vary as much as the personalities and characteristics of the children and families practicing these techniques. 

In my own case, my boy never liked the dots much but he could also distinguish quantities only up to 5 by age 2, these he probably picked up through play and everyday use.  I neglected math for long in favor of reading, EK and other physical skills, but I've been taking math seriously from his 3rd birthday and I'm amazed at the ease he's picking things up now!  Then you never know if the flashing (and in particular dot flashing) played any role and if he would have picked up math easily now in any case... (although I doubt that he would if I had removed ALL the little things I did for math in the first 3 years.)

Most people here would advise you to not start over on the program, unless as you said, he doesn't watch the lessons with bigger quantities, but does watch lessons with smaller quantities.  Maybe have a look at the lessons under the "Play/Edit" screen to help teach him to count backwards, skip count, add small numbers etc.
Also, have a look at the override function to set your lessons to all show only shapes or dots, then you don't need to change each lesson manually (a setting/settings will automatically apply to anything you run if override is on.)

My boy found these factor dots interesting, they're basically dots arranged in patterns according to the factors they are built from, like 45 = 5 groups of 3 groups of 3 dots.  Maybe have a look, they're not meant to be used as one lesson though, back when I was using them, I would arrange them by prime numbers, factors of 2,3,4 etc counting up/down/random:  http://library.brillkids.com/download.php?cid=1&tid=&lid=&fid=9333

Fantastic news that he's responding well to LR and LMs!!  Congrants and keep going!

[nkawan]

Hi Mamaofwill and thank you for taking  the time to reply to my post! javascript:void(0)
Around 4 years ago when my eldest was 3 1/2 I read about dot cards and was really disappointed that I had missed the opportunity to teach her using this method.  I got the impression from Doman's book that ALL children had the ability to subitize up until around 2 and a half and that even if it wasn't apparent that they were learning you should give them the benefit of the doubt...  Interesting what you say about some children being able to subitize but not translating this to later maths ability.  Also interesting to hear about flash cards and right brain development.  If you are already doing this with words/pictures and the dots don't seem to have an effect is there any point in continuing, I wonder?
I will definitely look at "Play/Edit" to check out adding small numbers and skip counting.  I did look at "Play/Edit" to try and change the icon setting to shapes only but got scared that I would do something wrong and mess the whole thing up and I found it really difficult to upload the program in the first place.  Is there a step by step idiot guide I could use?
Thanks for the factor dots too.
It's a shame my lo hasn't taken to LMaths as it is.  I was hoping to just press a button a couple of times a day and let my computer do the work. .

[MamaOfWill]

To me it seems right brain stimulation falls more under Shichida (which I don't know much about) than what it falls under Doman, and it's not limited to flashcards but includes a bunch of other stimulation like photo-eye-play, eye-movement, memory linking, mandalas, mental imaging and many more.  Dot cards can't completely be replaced by words and pictures alone, from a right brain stimulation point of view, because teaching math operations using the dot cards add another dimension to them, which is also a very good right brain activation activity.  We gave Little Math a good run from time to time, but my boy would often just look away and wait for it to end (because that's when the fun stuff starts, haha!)  If he did learn any arithmetic from it, I have no concrete way of proving it.

Here's how to set your icons to permanently show red dots: 
1.  Click the "Override" button at the bottom right of the LM window so that it says "Override ON" with a green dot next to it.
2.  Click on the gears icon next to it to open the settings window.
3.  Click "Numbers" to select the numbers tab (if it's not already selected) and then the "Display & Sound" subtab.
4.  Click to select "Icons" (if it's not already selected) then color the dot next to the settings "icon" and "shape color" green (meaning you're overriding these settings and not the others)
5.  For the icon setting select the icon radiobutton -> sets -> basic shapes -> circle
6.  For the color setting select "Set Color" from the drop down list then pick red on the color box.

Once you've done that I'm sure you'll figure many more things out with the rest of the settings.  It's quite a nifty app and I'm half sorry we didn't get the most out of it, but then there's always a next little one who might just love it.

[nkawan]

Thank you!  I have now changed my settings to red dots instead of random icons!  Maybe we will get past no. 10 now.  I will have to look up Shichida. To be honest I hadn't heard of him before I joined this website.

[Mae_Jakob_Ka]

My son did both Little Math and Shichida. I don't think he could subitize. I used to test him a bit and got a blank stare in return.

The tool that helps him subitize is the Tens frame and abacus (Right Start style). I guess it's easier for him to subitize this way because the quantities are shown in grid and colours.

BTW, my son is 5 years old and started using Little Math when he was 2.

[nkawan]

Hi  Mae_Jakob_Ka
Thank you for replying.  I wonder, did you persist with Little Math and Shichida even though you found your little boy wasn't subitizing and if so did you find it was any help?  My little boy started to recognise the notes on a stave with Little Musician really quickly so maybe something in abacus format or in an actual grid with different colours might work for him.  Thanks for that suggestion. 

[MamaOfWill]

Just a little side note here:  You can set LM to display in grid mode 

[nkawan]

Even in grid mode there is no actual grid though, is there?  So you don't see the dots filling out the spaces, just numbers in a line. That's why I thought it would be interesting to see how my lb responds when there is an actual grid and he can see the dots filling specific spaces if you see what I mean. Or have I missed a setting?
 

[MamaOfWill]

No, you are right, you cannot see the actual grid in LM (didn't realize that's what you meant  )

Since you've started this thread, I've been using LM again with my 3 year old and we've got it set to grid mode now and he's learning from it with great enthusiasm.  In the first place, when he saw it he must have been intrigued by this app that he's not seen for over a year and was very curious about it.  Secondly, he actually enjoys math now that he's older, making learning quantities in this way even more interesting.

[nkawan]

Oh, I'm glad your little boy is interested in LM now, MamaOfWill - it gives me some hope for us 

[Mae_Jakob_Ka]

nkawan, we completed both Little Math and Shichida. It was a challenge for us because he was not into both programs. My goal was to introduce him to quantities, number senses and of course brain stimulation.

Subitizing or rapid calculation are byproducts. Although Jakob couldn't do rapid calculation or subtizing randomize dots, learning math does come quite easily for him. I am quite certain that Little Math help build his math foundation.
 
If I were you, I would continue with Little Math.

[Mae_Jakob_Ka]

In addition, the 2-Color abacus is a major help for my son. With this type of abacus,  I am sure that your little one will be able to subitize in no time. I had been trying to teach my son to count by 2,,5,10 but it was hard to tell if he got it.  With the 2-color abacus, he can  easily count by 2,5,and 10 up to 100 and beyond because he now understands pattern of numbers.  I think the abacus helps him see numbers as quantities too. I also use it to teach math fact like doubles, near doubles or compliments of 10.

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