Early childhood and music education. New approach.

[KL]

Let me comment on this thread and the 'lively' debate that's going on (or just went on).

I understand where Daddude is coming from, and I would say that I agree with most (perhaps even all) of what he has said. However, I never bothered to challenge what Hellene said because:

1. I attribute a lot of the apparently conflicting views to a problem of miscommunication.  Hellene did emphasize from her very first post that English is not her native language, so I don't take a lot of what she says so literally.

2. For whatever differences there is left that's not explained by the above, those differences represent her point of view and that's all it is.  Hellene's point of view is clearly coming from someone who is deeply passionate about the piano and keyboard and who strongly believes in what she does based on her (apparently very extensive) experience in this area.  Whilst I may not necessarily agree with everything that is said, I'm trying to keep an open mind to what she's saying because her point of view IS very interesting, even if I end up not agreeing with a lot of it.  For example, her definition of 'musical education' is just that, HER definition.  I (like DadDude) would define it very differently.

3. I think most people here should be intelligent enough to make up their own minds about what Hellene is saying and recognize the natural bias.

Regarding Hellene mentioning her product, our policy here is that you may talk about products that you sell or have a personal interest in, so long as:

- It is relevant and helpful to the topic under discussion
- It is something we feel that members here may find interesting and useful
- You are upfront about who you are
- You sincerely try to contribute to discussions here in a meaningful way instead of just using this Forum as a place to advertise your product.

Hellene mentioned her association in her introductory post, and her posts also meet the other criteria set out above, in my opinion.

[Nikita]

Well, I've just tried to makes heads and tails of what we need to be doing, but with so many blue strips of quotes being quoted, and quotes on quotes on quotes, I've just got a headache. But I agree about the piano being the brainiest, hardest to play instrument.  I'm musically illiterate, but I picked up a violin for the first time at 21 and in a few minutes I was playing a decent rendition of Twinkle Twinkle little star.  Then I tried the piano, and couldnt teach myself anything without a simple book, and some help from someone else. I do find it amazing how people can operate both hands like that, and be thinking with 10 different fingers and their feet as well! (But I'm amazed with people driving manual cars and thinking with 2 hands at the same time).

[HH]

Dear KL,

Thank you for understanding: yes, there is some language difference that is on the way on our communication with DadDude. 
Also there is some educational and experience issue involved as well.

Here is the background where I am coming from. As I previously mentioned, I received my degree in former Soviet Union. In order to become Master in music education I had to graduate state music school first.
Curriculum of Russian music schools  is extremely strict: we had twice a week 45 minutes private piano lessons  (if you in piano department). If you learning other instruments, you have 45 minutes twice a week of your instrument as well + piano as a secondary and mandatory instrument.  On the top of that you have once a week 1,5 hour of Solfeggio (it is ear training course), 1 hour of theory, 1 hour of music history (history and music appreciation), 1 hour of choir or orchestra. Music school has to be 7 years (piano violin) or 5 years (other instruments)

After music school you have to pass exams and get to music college (4 more years of very strict and difficult music education + education in pedagogy, methodology, psychology). After music college you have Bachelor  of education and can become a teacher of music schools.

If you are superior and graduate your music college with honor there is one more step – conservatory (5 more years in music training and training in education). Upon graduation you provide research, write a theses and have to defend your research in front of the top specialists, who come to your examination from the most prestigious universities.

As you see, when someone is saying to me that he/she had been learning piano for 8 years and play violin, I can’t consider it as ligament credentials to be an expert in education. It took me 16 years of study and more than 30 years  in classrooms (there, in Ukraine and here in the USA) to become music educator.

Another point to pounder: experience. When I say that music literacy is essential, I am coming from experience with students, who learned how to read music and who didn’t. The gap between 2 groups is so huge that it is not even funny!

Here, in the USA I was a director of music in one private school. Instead of learning ABOUT music I offer piano lessons to students of entire school. Parents had provided fund raising and we purchased about 40 keyboards. I also brought my acoustic and digital pianos to school for more advanced kids and for recitals.

As soon as all kids started to play piano and read music, ‘music appreciation’, theory, music history – everything became completely different subjects: they gained meaning. Kids didn’t just talked about composers, they knew what exactly they were talking about! Their interest in music was so great that they were like sponges, asking me hundreds of questions. They simply started to care!

During our intermissions we gathered around piano and they were playing for each other new pieces. Even 4-5 year old students became perfect listeners!

In this video you may see my students playing Canon in D:
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/wTcLnPDaZzE&rel=1" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/wTcLnPDaZzE&rel=1</a>

After all the education and experience I claim: music literacy is a cake and all the other subjects are just icing on it, whether someone likes it or not.

Now let’s go to the ethical aspect of the discussion. I know that all the parents who read this thread and all of their children crave to PLAY instrument – not to talk about it. It is very wrong to mislead their expectations and make them to believe that if they would listen to a lot of music or learn theory terms it would help them to learn instruments. It just simply won’t happen!
In order to express yourself in music you ought to have freedom of literacy!  Go to store – buy sheet of song you want to play – open it and READ. And by reading I mean reading like this:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/IqbxUz9xi1c&rel=1" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/IqbxUz9xi1c&rel=1</a>

I am very surprised and sad to see how DadDude tries to justify inability to read music score fluently  by many music educators in USA. I am not blaming them for being half educated – I am feeling sorry for our kids. In fact, the curriculum that I had developed today is very popular in Russian music schools: it helps and kids and teachers to be better in fluent music reading and they consider it superior for even their pretty advanced music education. It is also used in many music studios here, in USA.

It means, I am here not to point a finger and make fun of anyone. I offer a solution and sharing my knowledge, because I care.

[HH]

DAY FOUR.

Now, after we got familiar with order of piano keys and music notes, we may train our eyesight to grasp spaces and lines in conjunction with this order.

This software is helping to do so:
http://www.doremifasoft.com/fruitlines.html

Again, read the page and download FREE DEMO version.  You have to use the same buttons as in previous game: right and left arrows and space.

To play game with Solfeggio names of notes press I on your computer keyboard and to play with Alphabet names press 'A'

If you have any questions, don't be afraid to ask.

[KL]

Sorry, just a quick interjection.  Several posts have been removed from this thread and quarantined for now.  Let me make the following points to those involved:

1. We encourage discussions and debate.  In fact, we love to see different points of view, even if (maybe especially if) we don't agree with them.  This is how we learn new and valuable things, even if all we learn is that some people feel so differently from us.

2. We do not tolerate it when viewpoints are expressed in ways that are disrespectful or insulting, or when responses start to get personal.  If anyone feels that they must do so, kindly take it to PM. 

Again, we are not against hearing your differing viewpoint, but just how it is expressed.  Obviously, it is a very subjective matter as to what constitutes unacceptable ways of expression. Unfortunately, there's no real guidelines we can give about it except to say that you should try your best to keep it civilized, and not to say things that may be reasonably construed by the other as disrespectful, insulting, or personal. 

When in doubt, best to bite your tongue and not say it!

3. Likewise, when posting about your thoughts and beliefs over a certain matter, take care not to come across so aggressively, pushy, or preachy, or in a 'I'm right and I know more than you' sort of way.  That may not be what you mean, or how you feel, but do take care that you don't come across sounding that way, otherwise you'll just offend people without knowing it.  This applies especially when you know what you're saying may be controversial and likely to arouse disagreement.  And remember that with the written medium, readers don't get the benefit of hearing your tone of voice or seeing your expression, which may convey something quite different.

4. Above all, this forum is a happy, peaceful forum, where we can say things and have lively debates without things turning ugly.  Let's all try our best to keep it this way!

That's all.  I look forward to getting back to the main discussion!

[Frukc]

KL,
you asked about the perfect pitch
look in this site, it changed my mind
http://www.perfectpitchpeople.com/Links/

Somewhere in this site I found that perfect pitch is 4 times more common among speakers of "musical languages" like Mandarin. But now I can not find this text again. 



HH and DadDude,
for me you both are right because you gave me interesting information.

Concerning " music education is not" , for me it was just a rethorics to keep my interest, and it succeeded

But my personal oponion is that musical ability is something very natural. It's borders we can study both in our society and also among remote populations which don't know notes. And musical literacy and piano playing is not a goal. It is just one of the many possible ways how to open our natural abilities

[Shuki]

 

Well said, Frukc!  Your open-mindedness serves as an example for us all. 

Karma for you!
Shuki

[Frukc]

Thanks, Shuki

Yesterday when here was discussion about Tolstoy and literacy,
I remembered vedas - sacred texts of India.
Vedas were a huge amount of poetry. I don't remember how many thousands of words were there, but something much more than several Bibles. Brahmans learned vedas without books. They learned not only texts, but also intonations, and any indent was unadmissable. In this way, vedas were kept for many centuries.

in this light, literacy is not a superiour skill. it is just a shortcut to the laziness of mind    

and who knows which skills are higher and more development-giving than others   we just try our best

[HH]

Vedas, and  Homer’s  Illiada and Odyssey, Nibelungs in Germany, The tale of Igor’s campaign in Russia,  as well as many other sagas of old illiterate times were recited by many narrators, who went from one colony to another and –yes!- they were reciting it with almost the same intonation and with almost no indents for centuries ‘till literacy was invented and they were pinned down like butterflies. I want you to remember about ‘same intonation and no indents’, because we would need it for later in our discussion.

Many today are idealizing this ‘old good times’ and even try to compare written literature with these folk masterpieces giving folk masterpieces all the benefits. But let’s look from different angle: look from prospective of progression.
What was the main goal of all the illiterate times? TO PRESERVE! To save masterpiece precisely in the way that it was created! Many other authors would be dismissed or vanished, because they would be even slightly different from matrix. To be honest, there were no such dare brave spirits! Modesty was signature point of many populations: it was not common to place your name on new masterpiece. Also many ‘new masterpieces’ were trying to be the same in style with already ‘sainted’ ones. And we are talking about centuries – not about couple of decades!

Imagine yourself in the same shoes now. You have to recite a text in Latin.  The listeners know the text as well. What is your main goal? All your thoughts are … do not have any of your own thoughts. You even do not have chance to recite it with your own interpretation! Your goal is to copy the text like a parrot in order to pass it blindly to audience. You are just a messenger with no right to create your own message.

In my book I compare literacy with centrifugal force, when all the previousely exposed material you can use to develop it further. All the folk creations are forced 'centerpetally'.

In fact, literacy is a big relieve! New generations don't have to keep so much memorized information in minds – now they have room for new staff.

Literacy was a main engine of development in every field. Golden age of literature, science and music had begun after the previous masterpieces were pinned to paper as butterflies: new generations came, scrutinized, analyzed and was not afraid to leave it all alone and to create something new.

Do you remember ‘Carol of the Bells’ that we all enjoy listening during good old Christmas? In fact, this is one of the most ancient piece of music that was ever created by men. It was surviving century after century in villages of Ukraine. The original name of the song is ‘Shedrick’ – from word ‘shedro’ – generously. Ancient people believed that if you go from house to house in winter and sing this song, you will attract goddesses of good harvest and prosperity.
In 19th century many composers spent big deal of time in villages collecting such tunes. Leontovich – well-known Ukrainian composer had heard the song and created refinement of it. Today you are listening ‘Carol of the Bells’ exactly the way that Leontovich developed it (unfortunately, nobody mention his name and I think it is very wrong)
However, here is a perfect example how literacy helped not just to preserve folk masterpiece, but also it made the material working for people – not people working for the material.

And the last: remember, I asked you to keep in mind the words about ‘remembering with intonations and with no indents? In modern time this is exactly how our kids learn to play instruments: memorization and following all the intonations that had been enforced by ‘Master’ (a teacher). Kids are so occupied with ‘masterpiece’ that they have no thoughts of their own!
As for jazz and folk illiterate musicians, in general they create music within a standard that in their heads from listening masters. Yes, it flies as ‘original work’, because the listeners are not far different from ancient – they can’t compare, because … well, the ‘butterfly’ is not pinned…     

[HH]

I received a letter in my private inbox with asking to explain, what I think about leading approaches in music.
It is a good question especially in conjunction with what I wrote about folk forms of literature.

We have to keep in our mind that initially all the written languages were created by prodigies and for prodigies  with no intention to have ‘user friendly’ interface. The need for mass literacy in reading came only recently: beginning from 19th century due to the fact that technology was growing, the need for literate workers became greater with this regard. 

Eye-sight of average Joe couldn’t comprehend many lines and fine print of small text and all the ‘approaches’ in teaching literacy failed due to that.

Speaking about Tolstoy: our great writer also participated in creation of his own ‘approach’ in teaching beginners : he believed that if to write short and very intriguing stories, learners would be forced to read them being pushed by their own motivation. As many other approaches Tolstoy’s invention failed to teach masses simply because eye of learners had too much of challenge to deal with letter- word recognition, and motivation wasn’t big help.

To be ‘smart’ and ‘street smart’ sometimes are crucial in our inventions:  our most ingenious projects fail, when they face primitive rules of reality.

As I wrote before, the solution to enlarge one letter at a time and connect a picture to it, which is phonetically match with the letter, was a solution that works even for toddlers in comfort of their own home today.
But situation with music literacy wasn’t that lucky. In fact, society care less, if you literate or not: we still need low paid labor to clean houses and to make hamburgers. Why we should bother to make all the masses smarter by giving them music literacy?

Many overlook backfire of such ignorance: ‘user unfriendly’ way of presenting music notation leave our people with the most primitive tunes. Illiterate mind of average kids (not prodigies of any kind!) is capable of memorizing simple tune or two. Beats (that is very similar to our hart beat) has hypnotizing effect on their bodies and minds and they are trapped. Did you ever wonder why rock and pop music culture always connected with drugs, alcohol, depression and violence? The answer is simple: simple tune that repeated over and over does not give your spirit any room to grow. And if you can’t grow up, you grow down.

Before  CD players came to existence, people were very motivated to be musically literate, because live music was only solution. Even in 20th century the quality of recording was not even close to actual performance. People craved literacy to be able to hear in good quality more often. 

However, teaching music to masses was not prestigious among musicians and composers. Beethoven for example hated the fact that he needs to give lessons to amateurs to make living. Leading instrument teachers ‘till today would rather have 1 prodigy then 10 average students.  Why? Because they concern about their own wallet: by demonstrating prodigies as their ‘professional achievement’ they get more fools, who would pay for their living in future.

Many of you do not realize that ANY approach could teach at least 10% of beginners. Tolstoy’s approach worked, too! With 10%.

Now I am going to dare to claim that ALL the existing approaches in teaching music today are effective… for no more than 10% of population. Russian music school, Suzuki, countless method books – I repeat – all of the existing approaches has rate of success. 10 % or less.  They would work with your kid, if he/she has inborn talent.

And ‘till you will compare every average performer to Emily Bear watching the youtube, ‘till you will judge music teacher’s credentials by prodigies, you are going to let other fool you to believe that your child could achieve the same results.

To check my words go to any teaching method website or on youtube. You would hardly find many average students playing something imperfectly.  You would find one prodigy (if you find any performance at all)

Why?

I won’t bother you with my broken English.  With help of one of my volunteers we  made a video. Watch it closely.
I will continue next time. Thank you for your attention!

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/XGWpvHiRgeo&rel=1" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/XGWpvHiRgeo&rel=1</a>
 
-

[Kappasweet]

Helene,
Do you have any possible music programs to open in the Dallas area?

[trinity papa]

I think i know where HH and DD are coming from.

I know of people, some my ex-music teacher, they are so so in reading musical notes but they play well. But of course i was a teenager then and those are the teachers i can afford. Of course needless to say i come out half baked or rather not baked at all.

I know of people who has Perfect Pitch (PP), but they don't know how to read notes, they listen, they reproduce and they forgot .....

I mean i like music so do my wife, but i can't tell what note they are playing or what octave etc ..... so yes i am illetrate .... though i can read a simple music scroll ..... but i can't relate them .....

But i am sure if i have the money or means when i was younger + added effort by me .... i would do as well .... probably being slightly more musically educated .....  but then again alot alot of effort is needed .... and i still can't afford a piano then..... (yes i have to buy my own even as a kid)

I understand why HH says learn from a piano .... you can't do the grand staff with a guitar for sure .... its easier with a piano .... its laid out on the keyboard ..... It's easier to grasp the concept of music notes.... to relate that note to the key and to the pitch or sound .... and with practice it registers in the brain or ear or fingers .... its easier to find the note later thru .... hmm brain or ear or fingers ... depending on how the individual relates to the notes ...be it auditory or tactile or imaginary .....

I am sure DD has his point ..... but that maybe old school (like i been thru) compared to what HH (although it isn't new but new to the outside world) says ..... so for a kid to spend endless hours thumping down on a note without knowing or relating what she is thumping down on those key for or even what it relates too ... it would seem very very boring and mudane ..... I mean if i can learn music thru a fun way .... like the vertical notes, and keying it as well, and still getting a melodies expeirenced ..... and if i follow thru playing .... parents and friends and even teachers or opp sex would be saying "wow" .... right .....  so why would i want to waste time thumping down on my keyboard playing computer games??

I mean i still can learn to read notes, register the pitch or sound of that note and when it is played i can visualise the notes in my head as it is being played ...... i am more the visualization kind of guy .....

But anyway lets go straight to the point ..... instead of spending tonnes on my child playing in a piano lesson spending hours thumping down on key repeatedly ...... and finding subsequently its too slow for her or not rewarding for her or that she simply isn't musically talented .....  maybe i just try out the product .... how about giving us a discount?? say 50% off for the full version?? just trying my luck dear .....

Ps can we fly over to the state and let you train our girl for a few weeks?? or you need a few mths??
PPs .... i know some people who can sing and carry a tone ..... but can't read music notes .... they just are KOK singers or remembers a tone .... or beat .... actually most singers who sings but doesn't know how to play an instrument wouldn't know how to read music sheets .... well most I know are in asia anyway (like twins), but then again its packaging ...

[trinity papa]

oh yeah sorry missed the point .....

HH is saying music education in the narrow sense of reading music sheets and playing the instruments as per the music sheets ....... if you can't read it you can't play it .....

vs

DD is saying music education encapsulates .....well basically a very broad sense, from playing it by notes or ear, singing it by heart or by talent, or simply saying wow this music is catchy ....... following a rythme or beat or actually appreciating classical and defining it ..... well like a music critic

This view comes about from one being a life time music educationist and one a music lover who also can play some instruments..... by DD sense i should be musically educated but i don't feel i am ..... because i can't hit an instrument or sing simply by looking at a sheet but i may be able to do it by ear and trial and error..... but hey DD lets look at it this way you are musically educated .... congrates.... hope one day my kids would be too .... then a generalist like me ....

But of course they have to learn to appreciate music first .... before they learn to play it .... just hope they ain't tone deaf ......

(but then again maybe HH should use the word "music notes or sheet education", she probably got fed up with kids not even familiar with notes while playing the piano...., from an educationist point of view that can be quite fustrating ..... like how do you teach english spelling when the kids doesn't even understand what is consanents and vowels.)

[HH]

Helene,
Do you have any possible music programs to open in the Dallas area?

I have everything possible for any city in the USA and around the globe!
Any teacher from Dallas may contact me and we would organize training over Internet or in person.

[HH]

I understand why HH says learn from a piano .... you can't do the grand staff with a guitar for sure .... its easier with a piano .... its laid out on the keyboard ..... It's easier to grasp the concept of music notes.... to relate that note to the key and to the pitch or sound .... and with practice it registers in the brain or ear or fingers .... its easier to find the note later thru .... hmm brain or ear or fingers ... depending on how the individual relates to the notes ...be it auditory or tactile or imaginary .....

Exactly: brain, ear or fingers. In our case also in EYES.

I mean i still can learn to read notes, register the pitch or sound of that note and when it is played i can visualise the notes in my head as it is being played ...... i am more the visualization kind of guy .....

Many people are visual and vision is very important in music training: your eyes have to be trained to grasp notation at once. After that all the ear training, memorization, coordination issues would come into place.

But anyway lets go straight to the point ..... instead of spending tonnes on my child playing in a piano lesson spending hours thumping down on key repeatedly ...... and finding subsequently its too slow for her or not rewarding for her or that she simply isn't musically talented .....  maybe i just try out the product .... how about giving us a discount?? say 50% off for the full version?? just trying my luck dear .....

I am here, in this forum, out of courtesy of the forum's founders and us currently working on making some benefits for the forum's members. You will be informed about the offers.

Ps can we fly over to the state and let you train our girl for a few weeks?? or you need a few mths??
PPs .... i know some people who can sing and carry a tone ..... but can't read music notes .... they just are KOK singers or remembers a tone .... or beat .... actually most singers who sings but doesn't know how to play an instrument wouldn't know how to read music sheets .... well most I know are in asia anyway (like twins), but then again its packaging ...

If you are not an educator and you are not planning to teach other kids, you may learn how to teach your child over the Internet (from this forum) and there is no need to fly to Texas for training.

document.getElementById('recent_loading').style.display = 'none';document.getElementById('recent_page_box').style.display = '';

Page: 1/4  

Loading...

Members

• Total Members: 214772
• Latest: addisonjones

Stats

• Total Posts: 110526
• Total Topics: 19136
• Online Today: 509
• Online Ever: 826
• (January 22, 2020, 12:09:49 AM)

Users Online

• Users: 0
• Guests: 479
• Total: 479