Piano Wizard. Mixed feelings

[HH]

I have great sympathy for Chris and his PW team. But I totally disagree with what they are doing.

I was trying to reach all of this people since they signed the contract with Fisher Price. My massage was pretty clear: today, when music education is getting squeezed out of the school system, when music education is not as priority as it was in 20th century, when our kids are getting hooked to rap, video games and drugs, it is EXTREMELY important to make the right move in music education.  It means: some ideas that you think is bright and new has to be thoroughly investigated before to go stryke the market.

Any false promises, any misleading in teaching concept would through the music education back in development again, and humanity with advanced guns of mass distraction just can’t afford that. We need to improve our brain before is too late,

But while I was busy on doing research and checking every aspect of new ways of teaching piano, Chris was raising capital for the idea that he thought is great enough to bother with any education in pedagogy or research.

I gave myself the benefit of the doubt – I checked the product. For many in this forum it is just another way to teach kids to play piano and read music. I see it a little differently.

1.   How would you feel if you drive a car in a fog and have to answer the phone at the same time? In PW objects on screen are constantly moving. Learners just don’t have a chance to stop, think and relax the muscles and eyes.

This approach establishes inner muscle tension that could fire back in piano development and technique.

2.   Graphic on screen and amount of colors is too intense.  Try to follow up with more than 5 similarly looking objects and think and hear at the same time. This is very stressful for vision of kids and is not contributing to ear development.

3.   Quality of sounds… quality of keyboards… ok, if it is a toy – why to claim that it is educational tool that teaches to read music?
The curriculum that had been built around is an attempt to sweeten the bitterness of this approach. So, basically speaking, they built a ‘house’ with no foundation and now trying to get some ‘support blocks’ around it – so the building won’t collapse.

And – as I predicted – after huge advertising campaign this product didn’t fly and now investors are angry, money are wasted on long boring commercials. All is left is personal sweetness and nice manners.

Guys, if it is all what you want for your kids – fine.

But I am not participating in this show.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/XChxLGnIwCU&rel=1" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/XChxLGnIwCU&rel=1</a>

[Ouroboros1]

So you would be OK with PW if it had an option for no background, an option for less colored keys and an option to stop at each note rather than continuing on if a player hits the wrong key, is that correct?

[HH]

So you would be OK with PW if it had an option for no background, an option for less colored keys and an option to stop at each note rather than continuing on if a player hits the wrong key, is that correct?

It would be more healthy - yes, but still leave learners in the middle of desert.
Grand Staff could be translated just in 4 colors:
Treble Cleff – one color
Bass – another
Line notes – third
Space – fourth
There is just no way around. You may burn me on fire for this, but I checked!

[Ouroboros1]

OK, so in addition to the three things I mentioned, if they could change to these 4 colors you mentioned, it seems to me it would be EXACTLY THE SAME as your product.  So you're essentially saying your product would not work as well....those poor people left in the desert.

[HH]

OK, so in addition to the three things I mentioned, if they could change to these 4 colors you mentioned, it seems to me it would be EXACTLY THE SAME as your product.  So you're essentially saying your product would not work as well....those poor people left in the desert.

what?????????????

[Ouroboros1]

Here you go...

OK, also zusätzlich zu den drei Dingen, die ich erwähnt, wenn sie diese 4 Farben, die Sie erwähnt ändern könnte, scheint es mir, es wäre genau das gleiche wie Ihr Produkt. Sie sind also im Wesentlichen sagen Ihr Produkt wäre nicht so gut .... die armen Menschen in der Wüste überlassen.

 or if you prefer...

Итак, в дополнение к трем вещи я уже говорил, если они могут изменить эти 4 цвета вы упомянули, мне кажется, это будет такой же, как ваш продукт. Значит, вы по существу говоря ваш продукт не будет работать также .... этих бедных людей осталось в пустыне.

[ChrisSalter]

Hellene,

Sigh. Someday we will meet, someday you will see the results with children we work with together, and you will see that there are other ways to succeed, and our goals are the same. We do disagree. You think Piano Wizard Academy is not only not effective, but harmful. I think it is effective and helpful. The difference is, I have years of personal experience with my product, hundreds of reviews, testimonials, videos, and thousands of clients who agree with me. You do not have years of personal experience, nor hundreds of reviews, testimonials or videos to support your claim that Piano Wizard Academy is ineffective and harmful.

By the way, you equate the "I Can Play Piano" toy product that resulted from a license deal with Fisher-Price a few years ago with Music Wizard. The toy product and Piano Wizard Academy are miles apart, and every shortcoming of the toy was a decision by Fisher Price. (It still got the endorsement of the MTNA even with the shortcomings). They sold out their first year (almost 200,000 units), and the second year they focused on the "I Can Play Guitar" but inverted our color coding design on the game (but not the guitar toy unit, and so completely confusing the children) to make a "mirror" image on the TV screen instead of the way we designed it. This decision (without our knowledge or permission) destroyed any playability with the guitar toy, and sank the whole franchise. At that time we were introducing our newly completed curriculum we created for the Piano Wizard Academy to be included in the piano toy, but as I said, their design and marketing decisions for the guitar toy destroyed and chance for the piano product as well in retail, plus we were furious at their breach of our trust and contract. So, to be clear, the Piano Wizard Academy is a completely separate product focused primarily on the music education, it is not a toy, or even a music video game, it is a full music learning system and curriculum, developed over 3 painstaking years at the cost of great time, dedication and expense by two of the finest piano teachers I know, Don and Delayna Beattie. I don't blame you for not knowing this background or the difference, but it is another example of how your assumptions and conclusions are based on things that you do not actually know or have any personal experience with. Yet you jump to conclusions and actually malign our system as harmful, as if this would leave the kids cross-eyed like Steve Martin's invention in the "The Jerk". Even though you have seen video proof of dramatic music and brain development of a profoundly retarded boy, you say those things, still. I thought and hoped we were past that.

I have never made ANY negative claims about your method, in fact the opposite, for several reasons. I support what you are doing, (we are on the same team ultimately), and I do NOT know from personal experience your product, and even if I did, I have NO agenda to demean you or your efforts. NO method is perfect for everyone, any more that no spouse would be perfect for anyone, each will have pros and cons, but the pros may outweigh the cons dramatically for one person and not the other. What we seek is something that is perfect for us at the stage we are at, better yet, something that can use to work at perfecting our musical experiences. We tried to do that by making the game open ended, allowing people to use ANY MIDI file, ANY track in that MIDI file, and give them tools to expand, learn, simplify with any song or music they like. Will we improve the game over time and try and "perfect" it, (perhaps with your help?) Yes of course, but it is a FINE contribution to music education as is, in fact, it is clearly a breakthrough, and more importantly, a TOOL that almost any parent can use to bring the beauty of music into their family's lives without breaking the bank or frustrating their children and themselves with traditional approaches that are simply not working and not relevant.

My belief is that you too have a great tool, and I suggest and urge you to tout the VALUE of YOUR product, with which you HAVE, years of personal experience, hundreds of reviews, testimonials, videos, and thousands of clients. I have said it before, there are many ways to the top of the mountain, share yours, but don't be too quick to think it is the only way.  Instead of just sounding proud (justifiably) of your accomplishments and discoveries, instead when you claim it is the "only" way, or seem to, that makes you sound arrogant and one dimensional, which in my heart I think you are not. In the end, our missions are identical, we want to bring music to the world, and open that door to their own souls that only music can unlock. My invitation to you, is to focus on YOUR product, YOUR work, YOUR point of view, and YOUR value. You could talk about that for years and never really exhaust that.

God bless you and your work, go make it better and better every day, as I will strive to do with mine. Perhaps some day we will meet on the way, as all paths converge near the top.

Thanks

Chris

[waterdreamer]

Well said Chris

[HH]

Chris, I am reading your posts about Solfeggio, music education, features of your approach
I am sorry...
You have your way to people, but all of it is gimmick.

I know, many people will get mad at me for attacking you. You see, when we go to a doctor, we look for professionals. Music education, unfortunately, in the stage of the Middle Ages
You have no idea, what true Solfeggio is, what music pedagogy is. But you know the way how to vamboozle people.
I will wait for a better time to educate people on  more mass level.

No, Chris,

You are not a professional music educator, your approach is damaging for education and I don't think we came to the same point with you.

You are nice guy, but you are a trouble for this poor uneducated crowd.

It makes me so sad that I would rather not come to this forum any more

But due to the fact that my invention is spreading all around the globe you have no or very little time to do what you do
I understand, money rules and you have to get this several million dollars back to your investors even though you misleading people to believe that they will learn to read music

Sorry for being harsh

I wish you will learn more or at least would read my book and article published by Moscow conservatory ( the place where Peter Tchaikovsky, Rakchmaninov and Prokofiev where learning/teaching)

Best,
HH

[ChrisSalter]

Hellene,

There IS a way to disagree without being disagreeable. I had solfege through Don's work for 4 years, along with Kodaly, and looked at "fixed do" solutions when I sang in a choir in Sao Paulo, Brazil, and felt, and still feel, that it has the same strengths and weaknesses of music notation. In other words, if you leave out the sharps and flats (white keys) it is a simple place to start, but as soon as you begin to sing in other keys with sharps and flats, or modulate, you begin to find the limits of the system, and the confusion begins, in other words, it leads you right into the bushes where people get lost. Also, in the US, solfege names (do, re, mi) are not the primary way to describe the musical alphabet, and we did start here, not in Europe, so we started with what was familiar here. Her question was if we would be supporting solfege in our game, and perhaps I gave a larger than necessary explanation of the challenges of using ANY system of note naming, which is at the heart of the simplicity of our system. We simply don't address it at first. We teach them music. Not the "grammar" of music, or even the names of the notes. Music. Sounds they can play instantly and perfectly. We don't have to teach them the colors, they know that. Only later do we introduce the note names, notation, finger numbers, etc.  Why "note names"? Again, starting in the US we went with the convention here. Just as I can learn the solfege names in a sitting, so can people learn the alphabet system. What I don't have is any sacred attachment to nomenclature, nor am I in any way a musical snob about the "correct" descriptions. These are conventions, like languages, and are either useful or not, clarifying or not. When it comes to music, I am not an aristocrat, I am a peasant with great love and appreciation of music. I am also Irish descent, and we are an irreverent bunch.

The examples in the posts above point to the dizzying array of "names" or ways to describe a scale or note, (and they cite at least 6 total approaches to solfege alone), and we learned them all interchangeably working with Don, because he treated them as spokes of the wheel of the song, the more ways you "knew" the song the better you knew it. Different angles and viewpoints on the same piece of music, some more common, others more clear, all shedding some light on the relationships or tying you back to conventional terms and language. That repetition through variation is at the heart of our programs approach, one variation we left out was the use of solfege, because of the kinds of frankly silly postures some people take on "which" solfege is correct, and we felt it would only confuse at this stage, and least within the game. Our program leverages song very well, but it is not a professional solfege training tool, and we again treat it like a tool, not a be all end all solution, so add as much solfege as you wish, but these are the questions and challenges you will find on that path. These are the kinds of extras we intend to introduce to users through our teleconference bonuses, where they can ask questions live on things that we understand but are outside the scope of the game and the coursework.

I did look at your article and suggest it as a resource to anyone wanting to learn more about solfege, as I would recommend the Wikipedia link I supplied. (I find your comment about the "Dark Ages" funny because that was when solfege started, but I digress. . .)

Once again, I suggest that you share your knowledge and approach in as positive a light as you can, and let it speak on its own merits rather than attack something because it is "not yours" or "different", and assume that is is therefore inferior. It is "different" but that is its appeal, it breaks new ground and defrosts some of the frigid attitudes and practices that have kept us bound for too long.

For example, a different response to my post might have been . . .

"Chris,

I found your posts on solfege very interesting, My experience is that you CAN introduce it very easily, and here are the ways to do that, and the positive effects I found with using that approach . . .. Here is how we use it with SoftMozart, etc., etc., etc."[/i]

In this way you can contribute, instead of demean, be an expert and teacher, instead of , well, whatever this is.

We just disagree on some things, and frankly are in alignment on a lot more than not. Your characterizing our disagreements of approach as somehow dangerous, selfish, greedy, smooth talking are not fair or true. I think our disagreements are INTERESTING and STIMULATING, and we should be passionate, but not mean. Once again, I invite you to speak passionately, clearly, deeply about what you have, and if we discuss different approaches, lets do it with respect and appreciation of someone else who is trying to bring music to the world.

Thanks again,

Chris

[HH]

Hellene,

There IS a way to disagree without being disagreeable. I had solfege through Don's work for 4 years, along with Kodaly, and looked at "fixed do" solutions when I sang in a choir in Sao Paulo, Brazil, and felt, and still feel, that it has the same strengths and weaknesses of music notation. In other words, if you leave out the sharps and flats (white keys) it is a simple place to start, but as soon as you begin to sing in other keys with sharps and flats, or modulate, you begin to find the limits of the system, and the confusion begins, in other words, it leads you right into the bushes where people get lost. Also, in the US, solfege names (do, re, mi) are not the primary way to describe the musical alphabet, and we did start here, not in Europe, so we started with what was familiar here. Her question was if we would be supporting solfege in our game, and perhaps I gave a larger than necessary explanation of the challenges of using ANY system of note naming, which is at the heart of the simplicity of our system. We simply don't address it at first. We teach them music. Not the "grammar" of music, or even the names of the notes. Music. Sounds they can play instantly and perfectly. We don't have to teach them the colors, they know that. Only later do we introduce the note names, notation, finger numbers, etc.  Why "note names"? Again, starting in the US we went with the convention here. Just as I can learn the solfege names in a sitting, so can people learn the alphabet system. What I don't have is any sacred attachment to nomenclature, nor am I in any way a musical snob about the "correct" descriptions. These are conventions, like languages, and are either useful or not, clarifying or not. When it comes to music, I am not an aristocrat, I am a peasant with great love and appreciation of music. I am also Irish descent, and we are an irreverent bunch.

The examples in the posts above point to the dizzying array of "names" or ways to describe a scale or note, (and they cite at least 6 total approaches to solfege alone), and we learned them all interchangeably working with Don, because he treated them as spokes of the wheel of the song, the more ways you "knew" the song the better you knew it. Different angles and viewpoints on the same piece of music, some more common, others more clear, all shedding some light on the relationships or tying you back to conventional terms and language. That repetition through variation is at the heart of our programs approach, one variation we left out was the use of solfege, because of the kinds of frankly silly postures some people take on "which" solfege is correct, and we felt it would only confuse at this stage, and least within the game. Our program leverages song very well, but it is not a professional solfege training tool, and we again treat it like a tool, not a be all end all solution, so add as much solfege as you wish, but these are the questions and challenges you will find on that path. These are the kinds of extras we intend to introduce to users through our teleconference bonuses, where they can ask questions live on things that we understand but are outside the scope of the game and the coursework.

I did look at your article and suggest it as a resource to anyone wanting to learn more about solfege, as I would recommend the Wikipedia link I supplied. (I find your comment about the "Dark Ages" funny because that was when solfege started, but I digress. . .)

Once again, I suggest that you share your knowledge and approach in as positive a light as you can, and let it speak on its own merits rather than attack something because it is "not yours" or "different", and assume that is is therefore inferior. It is "different" but that is its appeal, it breaks new ground and defrosts some of the frigid attitudes and practices that have kept us bound for too long.

For example, a different response to my post might have been . . .

"Chris,

I found your posts on solfege very interesting, My experience is that you CAN introduce it very easily, and here are the ways to do that, and the positive effects I found with using that approach . . .. Here is how we use it with SoftMozart, etc., etc., etc."[/i]

In this way you can contribute, instead of demean, be an expert and teacher, instead of , well, whatever this is.

We just disagree on some things, and frankly are in alignment on a lot more than not. Your characterizing our disagreements of approach as somehow dangerous, selfish, greedy, smooth talking are not fair or true. I think our disagreements are INTERESTING and STIMULATING, and we should be passionate, but not mean. Once again, I invite you to speak passionately, clearly, deeply about what you have, and if we discuss different approaches, lets do it with respect and appreciation of someone else who is trying to bring music to the world.

Thanks again,

Chris

Chris, I just can't replace 20+ years of strict music education for you. I remember, our worst students used to think that it would take a week to become the best. Sorry, it won't happen.

[Lappy]

To our dearest BrillKids Forum members,

First off, I would like to apologize for perhaps being a little too lax and a little too late to reply to these topics - they have been strewn all across our forum, and having such a big community places me at a disadvantage where I am not able to go through each and every new post and sift it with a fine-tooth comb.

But my inability to read through all of your messages doesn't mean I do not care, nor does it mean that I will allow one member - regardless of stature, position, or expertise - to needlessly attack another simply because one views the world as black and white and the other sees it with as many shades of gray as there possibly could be.

By now, you would all know that I am pertaining to the discussions between Hellene of Soft Mozart and Chris of Piano Wizard.

Although I had valued the earlier posts because of their effort to educate those of us here who are not as well-versed in music and teaching music to our children, I'm afraid that the last few exchanges have been unnecessarily acuate.  I use the word "cutting" because although one is free to stress an opinion here in our forum, one must still take extra care to be tolerant of others, whether because of a different idea, a different opinion, or a different point of view coming from a different background or experience.

There is a fine line between writing here in the forum to educate or promote an idea (which we are not against in any way) and cutting down people's idea to say they are completely wrong or ignorant (which I personally am VERY against.)

To those of you who may ask why I am writing this: I feel that these conversations we have been having have CROSSED THIS LINE.

This tone of writing has - and I am speaking for most of the members here - turned off a lot of people, not only to the aforementioned product and way of teaching which one of you have been so adamantly proclaiming is the ONLY TRUE WAY, but also to our community in general.  Many members have written to me about these goings-on, and for the sake of this community which I am administrating, I have no choice but to say something.

And for this, I would like for us to call a temporary truce.  By truce, I mean that I would like to request for the aggressor to please stand down and stop these unnecessary attacks. By aggressor, I mean you Hellene.

Far be it for me to defend just one way of thinking or teaching, it is true that there is a way - A KIND WAY - to talk to and educate people. As we have said before, you are free to talk about your products and educate the people here. But NO, you are not free to attack anyone here just because they think differently.

Please consider this as a SOFT WAY of asking you, Hellene, to please return to talking about your own products and the way your own method works for teaching. Please desist from attacking other people's point of view.  Let the other members decide for themselves what method they will like the best and what methods work for their children. Should I find any other demeaning posts, I will implement a soft ban on your account as a way of sanction.  So as not leave any of our current members "in the desert," this is a way to "teach" even you that actions which cause harm to others should be dealt with. I also believe this is the not the first warning you have ever been given, so i do hope you listen.

To Chris and most especially to all of our members, I have just read through every single post, and again I apologize for not having said anything sooner. 

Please feel free to PM me about your reactions to this post, and I will gladly reply to you to clarify in case there is anything vague about it.

Thank you everyone for your cooperation.  Let's try to keep our forum a happy place to be in and a great place to learn from, free of intolerance, prejudice, and close-mindedness.

[waterdreamer]

Thank you Lappy! Karma to you

[Fludo]

I haven't been in here for a while so this is the first I've read of these so called "discussions".  I am a music teacher myself and I just want to say I am appalled.  Music is one of those fields where there are so many different approaches to learning.  We need to respect other educators' work.  Your comments here Hellene have only made you look bad.  I have not had a good look at your product but in my experience, people who think only their way is the right way have closed their minds off to new teachings and experiences years ago.

[annisis]

I have no official opinion on Hellene's product, but after reading through these posts, I don't care to. I will make a note of the name of the product so that I may avoid it. I have no interest in supporting persons that see it fit to be bold faced ugly to competitors. It is bad sportsmanship and signs of a dirty and low business.

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