Piano Wizard. Mixed feelings

[HH]

I haven't been in here for a while so this is the first I've read of these so called "discussions".  I am a music teacher myself and I just want to say I am appalled.  Music is one of those fields where there are so many different approaches to learning.  We need to respect other educators' work.  Your comments here Hellene have only made you look bad.  I have not had a good look at your product but in my experience, people who think only their way is the right way have closed their minds off to new teachings and experiences years ago.

Digital photo versus film sounds too arrogant also. Sorry, sceince is killing previous versions.

There many ways to teach music, if there no knowledge about human perception and eye focus.

As an educator of music educators I provide all the info here for your personal growth

Regards!

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/5sMGHC3A2aM&rel=1" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/5sMGHC3A2aM&rel=1</a>

[HH]

I have no official opinion on Hellene's product, but after reading through these posts, I don't care to. I will make a note of the name of the product so that I may avoid it. I have no interest in supporting persons that see it fit to be bold faced ugly to competitors. It is bad sportsmanship and signs of a dirty and low business.

don't confuse business with science

[kizudo]

Frankly, we can't afford to get either product at this point, however, I'm glad to have stumbled across this conversation.  I know now that when we do look at piano lessons we will either go the traditional way with weekly lessons with a teacher or buy PW. 

I'm sorry that you've painted yourself in such a negative way, HH.  Your product may be stellar and have helped many children learn to create and appreciate music, unfortunately, I think that you've pushed more of us away from you than drawn us in. 

Secretly I wonder if you're actually working for Piano Wizard to get more of us to jump on his product!

[NBailey]

HH, your product may be fabulous, but I will never know. There is no way I will ever purchase your product based on what I have read here. They way that you present yourself is so important in business. You are the brand! It is very disappointing to see the way in which you have presented yourself on this forum and I commend Chris for the way he has conducted himself throughout. Apart from my most important job as a mummy, I manage high net worth clients at a major Australian bank. I Really believe in our service proposition and this has been what has brought the most success. I feel absolutely no need to make attacks on the other providers and I think to do this would be extremely unprofessional. HH, it is clear that you are passionate and truely believe in what your product can offer. Please just stick to this and concentrate on educating people about why they should invest in it and not constantly rant about why we should not buy someone elses.

[HH]

HH, your product may be fabulous, but I will never know. There is no way I will ever purchase your product based on what I have read here. They way that you present yourself is so important in business. You are the brand! It is very disappointing to see the way in which you have presented yourself on this forum and I commend Chris for the way he has conducted himself throughout. Apart from my most important job as a mummy, I manage high net worth clients at a major Australian bank. I Really believe in our service proposition and this has been what has brought the most success. I feel absolutely no need to make attacks on the other providers and I think to do this would be extremely unprofessional. HH, it is clear that you are passionate and truely believe in what your product can offer. Please just stick to this and concentrate on educating people about why they should invest in it and not constantly rant about why we should not buy someone elses.

Thank you for trying to help me with PR! However,  what most of the people missing here that I am not having any 'product' and I am not business.  If you won’t buy the software from me, YOU are the one who is going to miss. I care less, because the idea is out there and already thousands of educators spreading it with no penny invested from my side.
Yes, we have software that was developed upon my groundbreaking discovery. My 'product' is education for educators and I am teaching Master and PhD professionals about new updates in music education.

Many people think that it is enough to have 'some knowledge' about music to come up with 'new ideas in music education'.

Would you go to a gimmick to fix your teeth? To perform  surgical operation on you or your child?

You may do what you want to do, but I have to warn you: it takes education, practice and a lot of research to create healthy and effective educational product.

Of cause, if child develops wrong habit in piano, it won't kill, but I think sometimes it could destroy self esteem and overall success in life. As an educator who educate educators  I saw some very traumatic stories, when wrong start in music education crippled lives of people.

[Fludo]

Your arrogance is unbelievable.  Your product may be spreading around the world now, but if you continue to portray yourself like this in a public arena, word WILL spread about this too, your sales will drop, and less people will learn about this "wonderful science".  If your product is so great then yes we will be missing out - but what a shame after all the hard work you put into it.  I also read your new "book" with much interest.  In this book you talk about your passion for changing music education, yet here in this forum you tell us you don't care if we use your methods or not.  You are obviously not as dedicated to your cause as you make out.

[HH]

Your arrogance is unbelievable.  Your product may be spreading around the world now, but if you continue to portray yourself like this in a public arena, word WILL spread about this too, your sales will drop, and less people will learn about this "wonderful science".  If your product is so great then yes we will be missing out - but what a shame after all the hard work you put into it.  I also read your new "book" with much interest.  In this book you talk about your passion for changing music education, yet here in this forum you tell us you don't care if we use your methods or not.  You are obviously not as dedicated to your cause as you make out.

My  hard work was invested in research - not commercial bamboozling.
People will value that and I can be as bad as I am, because my conscious is clear and I don't have to kiss anybody's butt to prove anything

 

[Fludo]

So you think you're above us all that you don't have to show any professional courtesy, or even human courtesy?

Again to Chris, I commend how you continue to present yourself on this forum and don't resort to counterattacking - you obviously don't need to!

I have a question about both these methods - is there a version that can be used in "traditional" piano lessons?  I'm interested in the methods to learn to read but wondering if you have books you can buy rather than having to get the whole midi system?

[ChrisSalter]

Fludo,

There is no "book" system for Piano Wizard Academy that does not include the software. The interactivity, feedback, and ability to vary the interfaces is at the heart of the advantages of the system, plus it is structured like a game so the kids like to practice. By using MIDI, you also can use virtually any digital keyboard and thousands and thousands of MIDI files are online to download into the game, so it is actually a huge advantage. What we tried to do was leverage the advantages of both software and human interaction, with the Piano Wizard Academy, so rather than just a game, we added a 100 song curriculum, 50 video lessons (guides for the parents) of the first 50 songs in the curriculum and the sheet music. This curriculum was created by Don and Delayna Beattie, and they have about 50 years of piano pedagogy experience between the two of them, and would never be involved in something that they did not believe in wholeheartedly. I have posted videos of them elsewhere you can find. You must understand, Don and Delayna were already successful, innovative and inspiring teachers before they ever got involved on the curriculum side, but they saw a new value the game could bring that their years of teaching, an area they like most teachers had always struggled with, the twin devils of reading music notation and student practice away from the class.

Again, in two years of group piano classes with no prior music experience, Don had me playing Bach fugues, decades before we ever developed the game or collaborated on the Academy curriculum and videos. He was already a genius level instructor fresh out of college, and I just ate it up, and he changed my life. His approach, attitude, commitment all inspired me and led eventually to me creating this game to better address an area I had never mastered, reading music notation. To have him years later rejoin me later and collaborate to complement the game's strengths with his and Delayna's depth of practical piano teaching instruction was a kind of miracle and perfect circle for me. So while I have only my own tortured (other music teachers) and unique (Don Beattie) music and language learning experiences to draw from,( that ultimately inspired the game), I also have decades of Don and Delayna's teaching experience embedded in the Academy curriculum and videos, and that is why it works together so well.

A longer answer than perhaps you were looking for, but I wanted to give some depth to the conversation and share my experience with Don and Delayna, and give some idea what they bring to the table. It is also why I am so pleased they will be participating in the bonus monthly teleseminars for Brillkids customers, so people can get to know them live. This is another way we try and complement the strengths of the game and learning system with real teachers you can touch base with and consult while your family learns. I guarantee you will fall in love with them both.

Thanks

Chris

[RenaissanceMum]

I actually had a similar question about combining both a software program, as well as keeping my son in traditional lessons. Might it hinder him in some way or will it make the traditional lessons more worth while? Thanks in advance. I would appreciate answers from either side, so long as it doesn't include product bashing.

[ChrisSalter]

RenaissanceMum,

The challenges with traditional lessons are that even if you have a great teacher, will they practice? And if they do, how do they know they are hitting the right notes at the right time? That is where a software solution can help, it can make the practice fun, or at least give them some sense of accuracy and progress. We designed our system to be used by parents, non-music educators and piano teachers, in that order of priority. What I mean by that is we wanted to empower people to be able to move forward without being an expert. That being said, we put extensive notes next to every song for music teachers to reference so they can "get" the particulars of that lesson without watching the whole video. Finally, the use of MIDI means that many, if not most other piano methods can be found or come with MIDI files, and so songs your music teacher chooses can be put in the game and practiced at home as well as using the curriculum that came with the Piano Wizard Academy.

Some of this will depend on the teacher you choose or have, are they flexible, open? If so, they will likely embrace the technology's advantages and complement the product with things only a human being can teach, i.e., the art of music, which is what they really trained for and want to teach anyway. If they are rigid and/or PC phobic, they may not leverage the game explicitly, but your child can always search for songs himself as well, or just use the game to learn and practice in parallel. Time on the instrument is key, and so anything that gets them practicing is a huge difference maker. I believe we learn "holistically" in other words, there is no one "conveyer belt" of learning that fils in all the blanks, we actually learn in many ways, and those complement each other to give a more complete 3 dimensional (or 8 dimensional) understanding of the thing we are learning. For example, singing teaches us things, that finger exercises cannot, improvising gives depth to performance of written music (Bach and Beethoven were famous improvisors) etc.

Short answer is, yes, you can do both, and no, it will not "hurt". The most hurtful experiences in music are not different approaches, but judgment that makes people feel small and inadequate and want to quit. That can come from the teacher, from siblings, parents, friends, and music is a delicate flower in most people that needs some protection from that, especially early on. That can come with any approach, it comes from people not usually the actual educational angle, and I urge you to cultivate an environment where experimentation and the freedom to make mistakes and express themselves without ridicule is encouraged and appreciated. Even though we were young adults in Don's group piano classes in college, I remember him making sure the classroom was a sacred place, a sanctuary for us to be free to express ourselves and explore.

Good luck!

Chris

[Fludo]

Thanks Chris for your in depth replies - it's most appreciated.  I have a few more questions if that's ok.  (I am a piano teacher but am mostly interested in this at the moment for my 2 year old daughter).

To what level does the game go up to?  I understand you gradually switch over to the standard music notation - how long does that process normally take, and what level of playing are the students up to when that happens?  I understand it will depend on a lot of things, including the child's age when starting.

Thanks again.

[ChrisSalter]

Thanks Chris for your in depth replies - it's most appreciated.  I have a few more questions if that's ok.  (I am a piano teacher but am mostly interested in this at the moment for my 2 year old daughter).

To what level does the game go up to?  I understand you gradually switch over to the standard music notation - how long does that process normally take, and what level of playing are the students up to when that happens?  I understand it will depend on a lot of things, including the child's age when starting.

Thanks again.

Fiudo,

Because there are a lot of questions about age, I am reposting some earlier replies, with some modifications for you.

At what age do most children start using your program?

CHRIS- We do not advertise because developmental issues are so variable at that age, but we have had two year olds play the game fine, IF they know their colors. Sometimes the game is a fun way to learn them. That being said, there is a "Free Play" mode that we use with even new borns, where whatever they bang on the keyboard produces colored game objects, but this is mainly to get them associating music with play with the parents, and again, to help play to learn their colors. It sounds like she is either ready or will be shortly, in weeks or months. For me this is exciting because it is in the formative stages of the brain, and we know music helps connect those synapses so well. You may not be able to move to the next levels or off the game entirely as fast, but she can learn songs on levels 1 and 2 and go back to levels 3 and 4 and off the game later. Learning the songs and playing is one thing, that develops the brain, but learning to associate music notation with what she knows is the first stage to full literacy. Make sense? Can't hurt and she will only have fun. My daughter was 2 when we got the first prototype, and I witnessed her move from 2 colors ("I just like pink daddy") to the full range of colors and keyboard on a single song. She was helping me play Pachebel's Canon in D, (just pink and brown daddy, to help you) and I got busy and she didn't want to stop, so I watched, and she suddenly "got" the keyboard and moved to the next color, the next, etc. I slowed down the tempo and watched her move from 12% correct (just two colors) to 87% correct in one session. Those moments are magical, it is like you see their brain and consciousness grow before your eyes, when they connect the dots. So basically I would say give it a go, if she is not ready yet sounds like she will be there soon, and you can learn the colors together with the game.

Do you think my daughter, with her little toddler fingers, would be able to use this keyboard with PW? Or should we get a child-sized keyboard first so that it won't be too difficult for her to press the keys?

CHRIS- We used to sell a smaller "mini-keys" size keyboard, but the kids always want to play on a "real" size keyboard after like a month, so the full size keys will be fine. It is actually easier for them to find the larger keys, and the early fingering is for little hands on full size keys, so no problem. In the Piano Wizard game play mode the pressure on the keys is not important, but in Free Play she may need to play hard to hear it.

In your (or Don's) experience, how long does it usually take a child to transition to reading normal sheet music? How about an adult?

CHRIS- OK, this can vary, but in any case far faster than normal traditional lessons. Kids do best, then athletes (quick reactions, hand eye coordination) then adults, then musicians (to much thinking at first, they are translating while they play, but after they get the hang of it the zoom past the others) then some seniors who have minor motor and coordination issues. THEY ALL SUCCEED, but at different rates, and require different kinds of coaching or encouragement, perhaps just a different pace or tempo. We try and create an environment of fun and not competition, and that works wonders. As for your daughter, as I said above, she may hold back from moving to the sheet music or notation stages, or may astonish you. I had a 3 year old demoing the game for her parents, and she got to level 3 no problem, (color coded notes) and I figured that was that. I then just showed the parents the options of showing the note names and she blurted out "ABC!" I asked if she knew her ABCs and she did, and we took her to level 4 with no colors, just black notes with the letter names, and she did great. We were all stunned, because this was 15-20 minutes from zero, i.e., it was her first time with the game.

How do you move the children through the different levels off the game to reading sheet music?

CHRIS- This is where the simple star stickers come in. They want to please, and when you actually take the star stickers and reward them for level 1, then level 2 (on the sheet music page) they now WANT to get another star. Again, we circle back if they get tired or frustrated at any level, and try it again, holding out the reward and encouraging them to try. A GREAT technique is to simply do the next level and ask for "help", i.e., left hand, right hand, or even just one key, that gets them seeing it is not tough at all, and soon they are kicking you off, saying you are "messing me up" . .. Again, when you treat it like another level of the game (Can we get to 5 stars?) they go with it. I made the mistake of telling my son I would give him a dollar for each song he would learn on all four levels. In one week I owned him 16 dollars, and he was 10! My wife complained, but it showed what he could and would do! So be creative, but they absolutely will play more and longer if you play with them and listen, and encourage and reward them. Not hard to understand, but with the game, you actually CAN, and that is very cool to experience new music with your kids.

Hope this answered your questions and more. A 2 year old's development can very widely with no reason for concern, (especially if more than one language is spoken in the home), but exactly because their minds are developing so rapidly we think it is a great time to introduce music, and they will surprise you how quickly they "get it".

Thanks

Chris

[Fludo]

Thanks again Chris!  You've given me lots to think about.  My daughter knows her colours and most of her letters so sounds like she'd be ready to give it a go!

[RenaissanceMum]

Thanks Chris! One more quick question (again, to either, just no product bashing), I have a full keyboard, will the software adapt to that or will it still be concentrated as if playing on a smaller keyboard? The teacher would prefer not using software for at least 4 months, but I really want my son to advance so that he can move past the remedial piano stuff, which is why I am considering supplementing with software. Thanks.

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