Piano Wizard. Mixed feelings

[ChrisSalter]

More passionate posts about solfeggio. I think it proves my point, that there are multiple approaches, each with its own drawback, but getting the kids singing and some notion of pitch relationship is GREAT. The problem is actually NOT in solfeggio, but that it is based on classical music theory, and so shares the inconsistencies and quirks of that system, i.e., the overlaps between diatonic, modal and chromatic scales. The major scale, its modes and variations, (including blues scales and minor scales) is still the touchstone for so much music, but its variability makes for quirky definitions and relationships, especially when you get to harmonic theory . . .

With music, there is no "arriving". If Bach was still working out things on the art of the fugue on his deathbed, then I think we can safely say music should be a lifelong deepening education. To insist that one or another approach will "damage" the kids is as if we tatooed this information on their foreheads with hot branding tools. Kids learn about Santa and survive, their knowledge of the world grows infinitely, a metaphor or approach in the early stages does not stick anymore than the story of the Easter bunny, once new better deeper understanding is available, they can discard the earlier story/metaphor/approach and get to a deeper one. This can and should go on their whole lives. There are dozens of scales that can be overlaid to the chromatic 12 half note scale, there never will be one solfeggio that portrays the nuances of all those approaches. If you focus on the major scale, you will have trouble with modulations, if you focus on the chromatic, you ignore one of the central touchstones, the major scale and its inner relationships (modes).

Use them all, but for goodness sake, don't preach any one approach as "gospel". They are parts and pieces of an infinite puzzle, and we should delight in the different approaches rather than marry any one. We can all have preferences, even strong opinions, but let's be tolerant and not try and frighten or intimidate new parents that they will damage their children's musicality by accidentally choosing the "wrong" solfeggio.

Maybe the best thing we can teach them is that tolerance and curiosity to explore new and different approaches and find what works for them.

Thanks

Chris

[radiocat]

In the moveable do system, do is only the tonic if the song is in a MAJOR KEY!  If it's a minor key, la becomes the tonic.  If it's in the Dorian mode, re becomes the tonic.  In this video, you said the solfege as if you were singing the dorian mode (re, mi, fa etc) but the pitches you sang were just the MAJOR SCALE AGAIN!!!!!  (which by the way means you MOVED re!)

It sounds like you have a fundamental misunderstanding of pitch training.  As I said, whichever system you use, fixed do or moveable do, the intervals between each pair of notes must always be the same.  do - re is always a tone, re - mi is always a tone, mi - fa is always a semitone, fa-so is always a tone, so - la is always a tone, la-ti is always a tone, and ti-do is always a semitone.  

 

Dear Fludo,
Yes, MAJOR SCALE is built Tone Tone semitone Tone Tone Tone semitone or (in USA they say) Step Step Half step Step Step Step half step


And 3-year old kids don't have to know about that, like they don't have to know about dorian, frigian, lidian, mixolidian, hecksatonic, pentatonic and all other... staff. Even about MAJOR and MINOR scales they don't have to know. They care less.


You are right: the FEELING and intuitive understanding between the notes that they sing - this is what matters.

 

You think, that they do it better, if sing only Do Re Mi Fa Sol in any Major key. I placed a video for you proving that kids are perfectly all right to sing it in Re major and all many other majors, And Minors. They fasten pitch of the note to its name. Sharps and flats they learn first on intuitive level and theory comes later.



This is the way most of the world was taught (except English speaking countries).

 

What we have as a result? Perfect pitch development, ear training, fun vocal learning, brain development.



 

[radiocat]

OH and there aren't really 24 "tonalities".  There are 12 major keys and 12 minor keys - that's only 2 different tonalities, or to use a different word, 2 different scales, starting on each of the 12 different notes.  And all these can be sung using both fixed and movable do, but much easier singing movable do - you just start on do for major, and la for minor and then off you go.  With fixed do, if you want to sing in C# major, you'll be singing the seven sharps like fi instead of fa, si instead of so.

The other tonalities are the other 6 modes:  dorian, phrygian, lydian, mixolydian, aeloian, locrian and of course ionian which is just the major scale again. Dorian is starting on re, phrygian on mi, and so on. But you MUST sing the same intervals between the solfege notes and you will get a different scale starting on each note.

tonality
ListenRead phonetically
Dictionary - View detailed dictionary
noun
1.tonality
2.key
3.mood
4.mode
5.keynote

Things are not as complicated as you see, dear Fludo

Yes, there are 24 tonalities/keys,modes whatever - 12 MAJOR and 12 MINOR



And kids learn MAJOR scale a little more advanced abd literacy friendly way, when they call all the diatonic notes their real names. As for sharps and flats I tell them that in Re MAJOR fa and do 'got married' and their last names are sharps. It works!

[radiocat]

More passionate posts about solfeggio. I think it proves my point, that there are multiple approaches, each with its own drawback, but getting the kids singing and some notion of pitch relationship is GREAT. The problem is actually NOT in solfeggio, but that it is based on classical music theory, and so shares the inconsistencies and quirks of that system, i.e., the overlaps between diatonic, modal and chromatic scales. The major scale, its modes and variations, (including blues scales and minor scales) is still the touchstone for so much music, but its variability makes for quirky definitions and relationships, especially when you get to harmonic theory . . .

With music, there is no "arriving". If Bach was still working out things on the art of the fugue on his deathbed, then I think we can safely say music should be a lifelong deepening education. To insist that one or another approach will "damage" the kids is as if we tatooed this information on their foreheads with hot branding tools. Kids learn about Santa and survive, their knowledge of the world grows infinitely, a metaphor or approach in the early stages does not stick anymore than the story of the Easter bunny, once new better deeper understanding is available, they can discard the earlier story/metaphor/approach and get to a deeper one. This can and should go on their whole lives. There are dozens of scales that can be overlaid to the chromatic 12 half note scale, there never will be one solfeggio that portrays the nuances of all those approaches. If you focus on the major scale, you will have trouble with modulations, if you focus on the chromatic, you ignore one of the central touchstones, the major scale and its inner relationships (modes).

Use them all, but for goodness sake, don't preach any one approach as "gospel". They are parts and pieces of an infinite puzzle, and we should delight in the different approaches rather than marry any one. We can all have preferences, even strong opinions, but let's be tolerant and not try and frighten or intimidate new parents that they will damage their children's musicality by accidentally choosing the "wrong" solfeggio.

Maybe the best thing we can teach them is that tolerance and curiosity to explore new and different approaches and find what works for them.

Thanks

Chris

 

There are 7 notes of scales, Treble and Bass cleff, line and spaces notes, Chris. From here we can build all the rest. Otherwise it is a chaos in heads and in education.

 

The hardest thing in life to do is to simplify things, We say all the genious ideas are simple.

 

Where do you see the passion? This is just facts,

 

 

 

[ChrisSalter]

There are three variations possible on each line, or space. That is where everyone gets lost, keeping track of the possible variations, and then back again, an as we know a half step off is the most dissonant and out of tune you can be.

"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler" -Einstein

I like the metaphor that the notes got married and changed their names though! That was cute. Does the "Sharp" clan feud with the "Flats"? Lots of inbreeding there if you ask me!

Thanks

Chris

[radiocat]

There are three variations possible on each line, or space. That is where everyone gets lost, keeping track of the possible variations, and then back again...

What or who exactly were lost?
Advanced forms of music?
Prodigies?

I like the metaphor that the notes got married and changed their names though! That was cute. Does the "Sharp" clan feud with the "Flats"? Lots of inbreeding there if you ask me!

Thanks

Chris

You are sweet!

[Fludo]

My point is the actually sounds you are singing in the video when you sing re mi fa so la ti do re are WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  Doesn't matter what system of solfa you want to use.  When you start on re and sing only the 7 basic solfege words, you SHOULD be singing the Dorian scale ie, the same intervals as if you played the white notes from D - D on the piano.  In fixed do, you WOULD  be starting on the D and playing the 7 white notes.  But you sang starting at the do sound.

I agree, kids don't have to know the words Dorian and all that.  But you need to sing them the right sounds or else it's pointless, confusing and just plain wrong.

I agree Chris in having tolerance to different approaches but Hellene is just plain wrong here in her video.

I have a music degree and am a teacher of advanced music theory and aural training.

[Fludo]

Oh and modes are not diatonic scales.  ONly major and minor scales are diatonic.  Modes are an additional 6 scales to the 24 ones you are talking about. And then there;s the pentatonic scale, the blues scale.......

You seem only half educated in these matters - a little knowledge is a dangerous thing!

[Fludo]

If you're going to sing in "re major", you can't call the 3rd of the scale "fa" - that would be a minor 3rd from the tonic re.  You would sing "fi" which is a semitone higher.

[ChrisSalter]

"Fi-Fa-Fo-Fum, I smell the blood of a musician. . ."

Can we climb off our beanstalks and get back to empowering kids to love music instead of "gotcha"?

Thanks

Chris

[Fludo]

as long as we're not teaching them the wrong stuff

[radiocat]

If you're going to sing in "re major", you can't call the 3rd of the scale "fa" - that would be a minor 3rd from the tonic re.  You would sing "fi" which is a semitone higher.

Well, let's not point our fingers here and let's try to be NICE for a change! 

Who said you CAN'T sing fa # as a fa?
Entire Russian school of music based on that, and the world is listening to Tchaikovsky's NUTCRACKER on Christmas ok and hire Russians everywhere as pretty proficient musicians. 

Pentatonic or blues? They are improvisational genres and hadn't been meant to be written down. And even though classical notation had served the task!

But to instantly translate any pitch into a note and write it down in any Tonality is great! But, I think, to devide the melody into abc and what is tonica or dominanta is a bit slower process!

[radiocat]

as long as we're not teaching them the wrong stuff

As a professor of music can't agree more!

[radiocat]

"Fi-Fa-Fo-Fum, I smell the blood of a musician. . ."

Can we climb off our beanstalks and get back to empowering kids to love music instead of "gotcha"?

Thanks

Chris

You see, Chris, this is pretty essential staff and in a way is corner stone of all the problems in music education. Why?

It's like Roman numbers system in modern world of math. It's preventing our entire music system from further growth. 

Voice of human is a cradle of music. Solfeggio is a basic subject in all the respected schools of music.

To remove or cripplee this subject at the beginning of child's development, I think, is a huge mistake.

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