Piano Wizard

[ChrisSalter]

Hellene,

I love your videos, and agree with them. I find it odd and interesting that we came to similar conclusions with such different backgrounds. What I don't understand is how you think no other method, or even variation, could work. Our approaches are far more similar to each other than to traditional approaches, yet you say things like "your moving objects confuse the children".

You remind me of a story my dad told me years ago when he got home from work as a construction supervisor. He was waiting for several truckloads of concrete, the first cement truck driver came, looked at the pathway to get down to the foundation where the concrete needed to go, and decided it was too steep or something, and refused to try. The next truck driver came, talked to the first truck driver, and came (miraculously) to the same conclusion. On it went until my dad (the supervisor) had half a dozen union truck drivers sitting around talking about how impossible it was, and the job basically stopped.

Lunchtime came, and they decided to waste time elsewhere and all took off to discuss how impossible it was.

Of course, another truck came while they were gone, and NOT KNOWING that it was impossible, he proceeded to back down and pour the concrete normally, just as the other truck drivers were coming back from lunch.

So, the point is Hellene, in spite of all your reasons why Piano Wizard Academy won't, can't, shouldn't work, it does. They don't "know" like you "know" so they do it anyway and succeed wildly. I have a dozen ideas and "theories" why it works, many of which we have discussed here, and many of which parallel your work and approach, but the truth is, it works far better then I hoped or imagined, and I credit Don and his contribution for that.

And while we didn't have the benefit of your research when I studied with him years ago, WE STILL DID JUST FINE. I was a film major, then a linguistics major, and just took a random group piano class, quickly realized I had stumbled onto a genius level piano teacher, stayed with him for 4 years. I was auditing the last two years because I simply repeated his 2 year group piano class for no credit, but by then I was playing Bach fugues, Chopin, Debussy and more and took dozens of other much more medieval and traditional music classes until I had enough credits for a double degree in music and linguistics. I had had only had a couple of private saxophone lessons before I enrolled in his class. In other words, his (admittedly Hellene deficient) teaching was sufficient to cause me to learn to play piano and graduate with a degree in music with no music training before college. Not bad.

So again, results are there and you seem to think it is slight of hand or careful editing, it can't be true because it isn't exactly the way you would do it. That is just silly. There ARE many ways to get to the top, and the more we know about the better.

On the other hand, I hope people are appreciating the conversation, we are really having fun talking about very fundamental and innovative ways to look at music and music education, and I think this is showing how badly new approaches are needed.

Now, I have a question for you. You have said that your teaching is more than software, and I get that. You also teach (I do not, Don is the teacher). Our challenge was to make this something that anyone else could take home and use, in other words, that was not dependent on Don's presence or direct teaching. For that we created the video series, at least 1000 minutes of instruction (20 minutes per video times 50 videos), and we geared it toward empowering the parents to be the mentors and facilitators, but relying on the concrete "learning by doing" of the game. While the game is primarily visual, of course there is audio feedback, and movement to play the game correctly, all happening at once and so deepening the learning. In other words, the game does the heavy lifting, the parents act as coaches and guides to get the most out of the songs and lessons and move them off the game to the real piano.

Does your solution come with a little Hellene in the box? I know it has software, assume it has books, even sheet music and some videos, but I don't know. It would seem that teaching the solfeggio to their children would be intimidating for many parents for example. How do you get them from zero to la-ti-do? Is your audience music teachers mostly, or really raw people interested in music for their kids? With your background you of course speak the academic part quite fluently, but how much music education is needed to fully implement your teaching? 

By the way, these conversations have been really interesting and stimulating, not fair to compare our conversations with those with traditional teachers. I have had those, and so many are so "stuck" in what is "right" or "the way" (i.e., music notation as is). I once had a woman say that getting kids to play and read in minutes was "cheating". No "character building" (suffering?).

My question is, and I almost hesitate to post this, is how do you transmit the genius of Hellene and all that you bring to a lab or classroom into a package that a lay person can digest and use? I have to say, the videos of Don are a fraction of what he brings to a real classroom. For one he is very calm and measured in the videos, making sure to leave no one behind, while in the class room he is a maniac forcing you to think on all twelve cylinders. Yet even diluted Don, in combination with the game is 3 times more powerful (at least) than traditional approaches. And people can buy it and watch in their homes, greatly magnifying his influence, reach and impact.

Finally Hellene, I think you can see by me defending you, even inviting you to clarify how you "replicate" yourself and give people something they can use without you in person, that I am not trying to "win" this relationship. I feel sometimes like you are like the character Scrat from the Ice Age movies, obsessed with your acorn and having it your way. We have nice acorns too, and can admire yours without any envy, in fact appreciation. In other words, let's come from abundance and sharing, not competition and one upmanship.

Thanks,

Chris

[Nikita]

I'm fascinated with this whole conversation, which is mostly over my head. I think this highlights what adult geniuses in a certain field can be like. Competitive, focused, one-eyed. I think of Sheldon on the sitcom Big Bang Theory. It takes certain characteristics (often the choleric temperament) to achieve great things, but can rub lesser IQ souls up the wrong way. I think we should be glad for both programs existing and glad for the personalities/temperaments/IQs that created them. And we can all live happily ever after....

[HH]

What I don't understand is how you think no other method, or even variation, could work. Our approaches are far more similar to each other than to traditional approaches, yet you say things like "your moving objects confuse the children".

Chris, it is hard to believe, but when I was 15, I started to work on this problem. I am 49 now. 34 years all what I was doing is working just on that.
You see, in Russia (former USSR) we had the most advanced music education in the world. I am not saying that to hurt anybody’s feeling. It happened simply because our government was supporting music education big time.

What is it mean? We have wide net of music schools, where you have 6-7 hours a week of extremely intense music training (2 times a week x 45 min private piano lessons *if you take another instrument piano is a must from the 2nd grade on*, 1,5 hours of Solfeggio, 1,5 hours of music theory, 1 hour of music history, 1 hour of choir). In order to get to music college you have to graduate 7 years of music school with good/perfect score and pass about 11 tests to get there. To get your masters you have 5 more years in conservatory or university of arts. So, you have to have 16 years of strict music training in order to get your Master degree. But it is very inexpensive (if you get there) in music school and free in college and conservatory (at least it was that way)

From 1st to 5th grade I was one of the worst students in the school and I quit. After that something incredible happened. With no effort from my part I suddenly heard exact pitch of every sound! My parents noticed that I started to come to my piano out of the blue and pick up some tunes that came to my ears. They got me back to school and I became a prodigy.

So, in 1976, after my last recital and receiving perfect mark for it I was deeply moved.  I was crying and feeling sorry for the 5 years that I wasted hating music, for my friends who ‘didn’t make it’. My first question was: why it had to be a miracle to learn it?

So, imagine this: for 30+ years all what I do is to learn how to teach and how people learn (and not just music!). I had seen so many methods, watching so many lessons and read so many books that I became like a … good car technician. I can say by the sound of the ‘car’, what’s wrong with this –transmission, engine or just oil leakage )
When I first learned about PW, I, of cause, started to investigate (as with all method that I see in life). I read and watched everything from the Internet about your invention. I watched the lessons in progress and some moments of the recitals.

The big + was enthusiasm that your team has. Don and his wife are very good people! You see, when such people got to teach students, everything miraculously works! These kinds of people inspire students and therefore the results are great! 

But…  through all the years I learned that dependency from the personality of the teacher is an indicator of the weakness of the very system of education. 

You remind me of a story my dad told me years ago when he got home from work as a construction supervisor. He was waiting for several truckloads of concrete, the first cement truck driver came, looked at the pathway to get down to the foundation where the concrete needed to go, and decided it was too steep or something, and refused to try. The next truck driver came, talked to the first truck driver, and came (miraculously) to the same conclusion. On it went until my dad (the supervisor) had half a dozen union truck drivers sitting around talking about how impossible it was, and the job basically stopped.

Lunchtime came, and they decided to waste time elsewhere and all took off to discuss how impossible it was.

Of course, another truck came while they were gone, and NOT KNOWING that it was impossible, he proceeded to back down and pour the concrete normally, just as the other truck drivers were coming back from lunch.

So, the point is Hellene, in spite of all your reasons why Piano Wizard Academy won't, can't, shouldn't work, it does. They don't "know" like you "know" so they do it anyway and succeed wildly. I have a dozen ideas and "theories" why it works, many of which we have discussed here, and many of which parallel your work and approach, but the truth is, it works far better then I hoped or imagined, and I credit Don and his contribution for that.

Yes, Chris, it works in Academy and it works with some individuals outside the Academy. For example, this retarded boy from your video. I learned that he has an older brother, their mom is very dedicated home schooling mom (from Hong Kong!), on the top of that she is a math teacher – it means she is more skilled in teaching - who is really working on kids education (she bought and investigate whole bunch of children educational products). The boy was exposed to music from very early age and he has pretty good coordination.

This is how I was judging my own students, when they succeeded in my class. I created my own rule: to separate subjective and objective in my student’s upbringing. Gosh was it hard! It was so tempting to see MY work, where was  … just God’s will. This is why I asked you about statistics with other students – this is why you are asking about success where no Ms Hiner. We are on the same page here!

(to be continued)

[HH]

And while we didn't have the benefit of your research when I studied with him years ago, WE STILL DID JUST FINE. I was a film major, then a linguistics major, and just took a random group piano class, quickly realized I had stumbled onto a genius level piano teacher, stayed with him for 4 years. I was auditing the last two years because I simply repeated his 2 year group piano class for no credit, but by then I was playing Bach fugues, Chopin, Debussy and more and took dozens of other much more medieval and traditional music classes until I had enough credits for a double degree in music and linguistics. I had had only had a couple of private saxophone lessons before I enrolled in his class. In other words, his (admittedly Hellene deficient) teaching was sufficient to cause me to learn to play piano and graduate with a degree in music with no music training before college. Not bad.

It is fascinating!  I am very impressed with your versatility!
Compare to you I focused only in one subject for my entire life. My focus was only on the problem with music education.
 
My first very shocking discovery was that many people think that it is enough to know the subject well to be able to teach it.
 
My second quite disturbing discovery was that music pedagogy in the extremely low level practically everywhere in the world!  The more prestigious school – the more disdain for music education.

My third discovery was that teaching is a science, which is based on certain rules. Like in the medical field you have to know all the conditions, all the symptoms and all the diseases to be able to teach with no harm. 

So again, results are there and you seem to think it is slight of hand or careful editing, it can't be true because it isn't exactly the way you would do it. That is just silly. There ARE many ways to get to the top, and the more we know about the better.

Yes, there are many ways to the top, if… you start with right foundation.
From simple to advance, from concrete to abstract. 

Every music teacher has to know, what part of the brain is getting developed first, in what age kids are capable of controlling each finger, when and how their eye focus is getting developed, how building skills  are connected with neurons of the brain, what is the basic skills we can rely on to guarantee effective results with less pain and much much more.

If you know all of that, you can look at the results of your invention with impartiality. Science is based on impartiality. Otherwise you may never guarantee results.

On the other hand, I hope people are appreciating the conversation, we are really having fun talking about very fundamental and innovative ways to look at music and music education, and I think this is showing how badly new approaches are needed.

I’ll tell you more: if today we won’t make it to public schools, if we won’t manage to teach every child, it would be a disaster. I wrote about it so many times that I would skip it for now.

Now, I have a question for you. You have said that your teaching is more than software, and I get that. You also teach (I do not, Don is the teacher). Our challenge was to make this something that anyone else could take home and use, in other words, that was not dependent on Don's presence or direct teaching. For that we created the video series, at least 1000 minutes of instruction (20 minutes per video times 50 videos), and we geared it toward empowering the parents to be the mentors and facilitators, but relying on the concrete "learning by doing" of the game. While the game is primarily visual, of course there is audio feedback, and movement to play the game correctly, all happening at once and so deepening the learning. In other words, the game does the heavy lifting, the parents act as coaches and guides to get the most out of the songs and lessons and move them off the game to the real piano.

Does your solution come with a little Hellene in the box?

Yes and no! I learned how people learn and created a mathematical proportions of development. They are embedded in the software itself: it is built on very sophisticated algorithm and ‘feels’ every player individually. Every move counts by accuracy and time.

I know it has software, assume it has books, even sheet music and some videos, but I don't know. It would seem that teaching the solfeggio to their children would be intimidating for many parents for example. How do you get them from zero to la-ti-do?

We have both of the systems: you switch it with a key’ I ‘or ‘A’ (guess which stands for Alphabet and which for Italian icons’ ).

The gradualness from Zero to university level built on algorithms.

‘Zero’ requires to be able to focus on small objects (so, the program works just for kids from 24 months), to hear sounds, to have fingers and to recognize some colors. Everything from zero built up with algorithms.

Is your audience music teachers mostly, or really raw people interested in music for their kids?

 

Both. I can’t say in what proportion, though (never thought of this).

With your background you of course speak the academic part quite fluently, but how much music education is needed to fully implement your teaching? 

None. 

By the way, these conversations have been really interesting and stimulating, not fair to compare our conversations with those with traditional teachers. I have had those, and so many are so "stuck" in what is "right" or "the way" (i.e., music notation as is). I once had a woman say that getting kids to play and read in minutes was "cheating". No "character building" (suffering?).

Most people, students and teachers alike, are convinced that an education in music requires patience, stress, and suffering. Now and then, some of the more conservative parents request that I teach their children in the old way. But even they give up on this venture when they realize how much this slows their child’s progress. This is the same as switching from a powerful, fast computer to an old machine that crashes and lags from any new information.

For too long now, music educators have been swimming against the flow – they have battled with the natural development of the perception, with the laws of the establishment of skills, and the gradual cycles of learning. Instead of trying to improve its effectiveness, traditional pedagogy has thought up a justifying philosophy for itself: learning music requires certain abilities that not everyone has, and mastering music involves hardship and suffering. Convinced of its own innocence, pedagogy must convert everyone else to its belief. "Patience and hardship" have been elevated into an ideal, and the "believing" educators are blind to the fact that they are teaching with the worst of all methods.

In the hierarchy of "devotees to music," the ‘norm’ becomes more important than the success of the black sheep. Sometimes it seems to me that the point of the pedagogy isn’t at all the joy of our students’ progress, but their bowing down before us as gods. Many educators are willing to overlook the fact that there are no results in their efforts, so long as they don’t have to reexamine their methods. They are ready to demand any amount of effort and time from their students, compel them to cram without stop, but are sanctimoniously convinced: to sacrifice oneself to "high art" is the price the student has to pay. And this would have been acceptable if "high art" were the true mastering of music, rather than the comforting of those that don’t care to learn anything themselves.

My question is, and I almost hesitate to post this, is how do you transmit the genius of Hellene and all that you bring to a lab or classroom into a package that a lay person can digest and use? I have to say, the videos of Don are a fraction of what he brings to a real classroom. For one he is very calm and measured in the videos, making sure to leave no one behind, while in the class room he is a maniac forcing you to think on all twelve cylinders. Yet even diluted Don, in combination with the game is 3 times more powerful (at least) than traditional approaches. And people can buy it and watch in their homes, greatly magnifying his influence, reach and impact.

Chris, algorithms and extremely gradual road from Zero to very advanced. Remember, I wrote that teaching is a science?  When you hit the right note at the right time, there are certain parameters that could be monitored and measured to instantly see your own/your student/your child progress. Remember, when I was writing, how I forced myself to separate objective and subjective forces? I collected objectives and we created algorithms to support the growth. If student is slow, the program keeps him/her fully supported. Any progress and the program gently pushes  up.

Finally Hellene, I think you can see by me defending you, even inviting you to clarify how you "replicate" yourself and give people something they can use without you in person, that I am not trying to "win" this relationship. I feel sometimes like you are like the character Scrat from the Ice Age movies, obsessed with your acorn and having it your way. We have nice acorns too, and can admire yours without any envy, in fact appreciation. In other words, let's come from abundance and sharing, not competition and one upmanship.

Yes, Chris! I see that and I hope that one day we’ll get together on this. I just want you to understand something VERY INPORTANT: there is no ‘Hellene’ in my box, just a ‘training machine’ that dispassionately catches every move and act accordingly.

I think, this is the reason, why it is spreading spontaneously and sometimes I discover that it is being used in different schools in different countries and even getting on TV without my knowledge of it. What I discovered, though, that teachers or home school parents, for example, add their own ‘personality’ to it. 

I just gave them a tool to monitor their success.
 

[HH]

Guys,
If interested, please, let’s move our conversation to another topic, because we are talking about general rules of teaching/learning process. Here the link:
Thank you! http://forum.brillkids.com/teaching-your-child-music/hi-guys!-i-am-back-with-a-new-book!-you-can-be-a-musician-a-defense-of-music/msg60079/?topicseen#new

[ChrisSalter]

This discussion took a weird turn for me, basically turning into the longest review ever by someone who has never seen or played the game or used our system. I think it served to bring out interesting points about music education in general, but I also felt that there was some fundamental gaps in understanding that needed to be addressed and clarified. I looked back on this, and don't think I ever disparaged SoftMozart at any point or her premises. There are a few reasons for this.

First, I know Hellene's product line from a distance, and can see she has come to many of the same conclusions I did, through through a very different path, so basically I feel her fundamentals are sound.

Second, I don't know her product directly, (as she does not know mine) and cannot speak to its details, nor have I used it with children, to me the true test, as they don't lie. She seems to have some real success with it with a broad variety of people so I don't really have any reason to doubt it works.

Third, I really was just sharing different perspectives on music education in general until this thread was created (not by me) and I saw some remarks that were really inaccurate and began to try and fill in the gaps. It turned into a very passionate conversation, much more adversarial than I like, but I felt it my duty to defend our work.

Fourth I just don't believe in a zero sum world, where another's merit diminishes mine, or vice versa, and felt that a spirited discussion could open up a few minds and hearts and get people thinking about music and education differently.

Finally, Hellene and I share a common vision of universal musical literacy, we are both entrepreneurs struggling to bring our visions to the world, and we have both seen the power of our work in action, and know we are on to something big and beautiful. She is much more a kindred spirit and person I admire than someone I want to denigrate or dispute with. The ONLY objection I have with here position is when she lays out her ideas as if they were the only valid approaches in the universe. I know it comes from her deep research and conviction, but this is where she clearly goes too far and comes across as arrogant. In fact I don't think she is ego based at all, she clearly has a much bigger mission in life, and uses her background as another validation for her convictions, but it comes across wrong, and excessively rigid, and so it was tough to get the conversation over to a more tolerant and open minded point of view, but I think we got there in the end. That end (tolerance of other possibilities and points of view)  is the beginning of true understanding.

There is a zen story of a zen expert going up to the top of the mountain to see another zen master and expounding non-stop all that he knew. While he was doing this the zen master he came to visit kept pouring the tea into his cup until it overflowed. The zen expert asked what he was doing, he said, "I cannot give you anything, your cup is already full." In other words, we need open space in our hearts and minds to look and learn what we don't know yet, and in fact, our own "knowledge" is often the biggest impediment to learning something new, there is no space or tolerance for new information. Yet of course we don't want to be empty headed and just accept things we have already examined and found wrong, so it is always a balance to move forward with some openness and yet not lose what we worked so hard to learn already.

So finally after pages and pages I feel she is beginning to see we are much more on the same page as not, and I am not an enemy but a friend to her and her cause. I just disagree that it is Hellene's way or the highway. In the piano teaching/method world, there are MANY passionate points of view, this book, that teacher, this approach. I really have had these kinds of discussion with much more rigid thinkers, and while it is tempting to get into spitting contests with many of them, I know in my heart they are speaking from THEIR experience and conviction. Hellene laid  out her "third party validations", i.e., proof of other people having success with her products. KL was annoyed that she did this on the "Piano Wizard" thread, but as I said, I did not start the thread, it was not "mine" but of course I felt duty bound to clarify and defend our project where I felt it was misunderstood or maligned unfairly. The point is, I basically jumped in to defend myself and our product, but out of necessity, not because I feel defensive about it at all. I am very proud of what we have created, and want to share that with people who are looking for a solution. That being said, I am now going to begin to share in this thread materials that we use to show people how our product works, and who else (besides us) think its great and worth looking at. NOTHING I AM GOING TO SHARE HAS ANYTHING NEGATIVE TO SAY ABOUT SOFTMOZART. I actually don't think of this past 5 pages as a dispute, more a misunderstanding, and an opportunity to clarify and understand more deeply the challenges we all face bringing music to the world and our families. I learned a lot more about SoftMozart and Hellene's background, and really am open to she and I finding ways to collaborate, and I hope she feels the same way about ours as she learns more about us.

So, with that long preamble, here is now a one minute video that kind of gives you a quick overview of our approach. You can see right away why Hellene's approach and mine are more similar than not, the vertical to horizontal and transition to traditional music notation view. We differ on nuance of how we get there, but our goal was the same, and frankly I believe we both achieve it in our own ways. That being said, my hope is that you view these materials and judge them on their own merits, see if it makes sense to you, appeals to you, if you think it would be helpful for you and yours. If so great, if not, good luck on your journey to find the right path for you.


<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/BbyiGCohr6w&rel=1" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/BbyiGCohr6w&rel=1</a>

[ChrisSalter]

This video explains how the full educational Piano Wizard Academy works, not just the game as in the previous video.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/MT6QgZOcE0s&rel=1" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/MT6QgZOcE0s&rel=1</a>

[ChrisSalter]

This video inspires me. Pauline Victoria is a motivational speaker I met at a conference, who came up to one of our meetings in her wheelchair and said she wanted to play our game. Not having arms or legs, I had no idea how she would do that, but I was NOT going to be the one to say no to her. She pulled out a backscratcher, and proceeded to play the left hand part of the melody of John Lennon's "Imagine" in a duet with me. I missed more notes because I was just in awe of her spirit and ability to adapt. I learned later she had a three year old son, we sent the game to her for Christmas, and she shared this video with me.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/Z2u7iiv1Xq4&rel=1" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/Z2u7iiv1Xq4&rel=1</a>

If she can teach her son, so can you. Look at the joy and bonding between them.

[HH]

Chris,

I am sorry, if I in any way hurt your feelings.

I totally agree with you: we have to collaborate!

If you want me to, I can delete my posts.

I am very impressed with your personality!

[ChrisSalter]

Hellene,

You didn't hurt my feelings, I knew you didn't understand where we were coming from, and we got through it, and it led to some really great discussions and insight. I will send you my contact info privately and perhaps we can talk this weekend about all that we do and you do and see where we can help each other.

Thanks

Chris

[TeachingMyToddlers]

Just wanted to say, what a neat PW demo clip, I am really glad to have seen that! It's just like DDR, but for the piano! How cool. (Dance Dance Revolution Video Game) that is definitely something we will explore down the road.

[ChrisSalter]

Here is a clip that shows Professor Don Beattie talking about his first experiences with the game and how the Academy was created with he and is wife at SIU Carbondale.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/Rxpg6M6WNJQ&rel=1" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/Rxpg6M6WNJQ&rel=1</a>

[Nikita]

I think this clip gives good insight into what Piano wizard is about.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/MsJwnTXXwA8&rel=1" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/MsJwnTXXwA8&rel=1</a>

[Ouroboros1]

Chris,

I was looking on the piano wizard site, but couldn't find the computer requirements for the best functioning of PW.  I would like to use a laptop for space reasons, but I want to make sure mine isn't too outdated.

Nevermind--I just found it:
 
Question:
  Minimum suggested hardware requirments

Resolution:
  Windows 98 SE/ ME / 2000 / XP 733+ MHz processor, 32 Meg video card 100 Mb of Free Hard Drive Space MIDI cable, MIDI keyboard and appropriate system drivers Internet access to register/update game and download MIDI songs (Note: Hardware requirements may vary with manufacturer)
 
   
 

[Nikita]

and a question from me too...
I saw on your site you have I can play Guitar. Does that mean there will be Guitar wizard? And I can play drums/drum wizard? And VIOLIN coming?

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