TEACHING MUSIC to our kids – Questions for YOU

[reei]

Tamsyn,

Love your blog. I found out all I ever need to know about Suzuki violin from your blog.

Thanks.

[MutyaB]

First off, thanks for opening this thread.   I only got to see this now, but I hope it's not too late to join in the topic.

-   How important do you think music education is, and why?
I think it's VERY important, specifically in my opinion because music plays such a big part of my own life. I used to be a musician by trade (guitar, singer and bass player) and even though I never had any formal training music, my love for music has made my life so much richer. I cannot imagine life without music, and I think it would be such a fantastic gift to give my child.

-   What are you currently doing with your child in terms of music education?
Early on, it was just exposure to all types of music. We used Baby Mozart when we could get them, but it was also just because we had music on most of the time. The music we play around the house was just something we all enjoyed. When my son turned 1, we found that he had an enthusiasm for singing [or humming] in tune to some of the songs we heard most often, and he also likes dancing with his little sister. I haven't figured out a formal program for music just yet because some of the available ones are a little expensive or they seem a little to strict (where's the fun!?)

-   What instrument(s) is your child learning (or do you plan to let your child learn)?
Hopefully I can get my kids started on the piano.  This is something I've never learned to play myself (know a few songs but don't know enough to play off the bat) and I would love for my kids to have an opportunity to express themselves through the piano. It's not as hard [in my opinion] as the violin and guitar where you need finger strength for the fret board, so I think my kids can start earlier on the keys.

-   What are the problems you face when teaching music (or an instrument)?
Mostly just the time and the cost, although I admit that time is easy enough to set aside for a good program which I really think my kids would enjoy.

I would really LOVE to see what you guys have which could help us with our kids' music education. Little Musician in the making? 

[DrPrimo]

hello all!
i just wanted to share with you what i learned from expert piano teacher Keith Snell.  He has  a series of books entitled piano town.  you all might have seen them (they are all over).  anyway, i asked him about the correct age to start piano, and he said 5 or 6.  no earlier.  i asked why, and he said that the hands are just not big enough to fit onto the keyboard to play properly.  that is why suzuki starts the violin so early because they make small violins.  i never really thought of hand size as being an obstacle  before, but it makes sense.  better to start with note flash cards/perfect pitch exercises to get them ready.
just wanted you all to know about that.
here is his website if you are interested
http://www.keithsnellpianist.com/

the doc

[2010BEBES]

You are right Dr Primo, I think we have to wait for children until 5 to learn the piano nevertheless at 3 we can start music lessons.

 I am planning to take my grandson next month to a 'Music Workshop' where they will start with flute and percussion instruments.
Today we bought a peruvian 'cajon' for me and a smaller for him.
Tomorrow we will start playing some rythms. We both enjoy music.

[KL]

I agree with the age 5 limit only to a limited extent.

Felicity has been with Yamaha for a while now.  Most of the kids in the class are 4 (some may have been late 3 when the year started), and from playing single notes in the beginning, they are now already playing 5-note scales and even chords now.  Many of them are also playing some simple pieces with both hands.

Even before they started this year's Junior Music Course, they were on the "Music Wonderland" course before this at age 3, and they had piano exposure by pressing certain bunch of notes in time to CD music (like 2 presses mimicking car horn toots at the appropriate time during the music).

[TmS]

Mozart started learning the Clavier (keyboard type instrument) at the age of three.

I've taught piano to littlies and age five is much much easier for many many reasons, hand strength being one of them. However, easier for the teacher doesn't exactly translate to easier or best for the child.

It depends on what you want your child to walk away with at the end of the lesson. If you're happy with them learning that the notes to the right are higher pitched than the ones to the left and pressing keys in time with the music and what an octave is and that pattern on the keyboard repeats then there is no limit to when they can start learning. If you want them to walk away from their first lesson playing the c major scale in contrary motion you might need to wait a bit.

I believe in exposing them straight away (my son plays my piano when he wants to) because they can learn a lot just from experimenting with the instrument.

I think music courses like those described by KL and 2010BEBES are great for children as long as we keep in perspective that there are certain technical aspects that they will need to grow into.

[DrPrimo]

just keep in mind that a clavier keys are much smaller that regular piano keys... like a harpsichord.  so as much as i believe in starting children in music ASAP, such as flashcards, picking out notes, etc., do keep in mind the physical limitation of their little hands in relation to the width of the piano keys.  that is why people start with violins... because they make very small ones to accommodate little fingers!
food for thought,
the doc

[TmS]

Hey Dr Primo,

I think you may have misunderstood me. I actually completely agree with you that the keys of a piano are too wide and heavy for young fingers to learn to play. However, I don't see this as a reason not to have lessons - simply to adjust the lessons.

When I take on a three year old as a piano student we play lots of games.The beauty of the piano and one of the reasons I prefer it as a beginner instrument is the visual clues it gives the child about the repeated note patterns in music - they can physically see and deduce without help (which is very exciting for them) that the c note repeats all over the piano.This means you can have them not just reading ledger lines but understanding them much sooner than you can on a stringed instrument.

We use flashcards to pick notes on the piano and as they get the hang of it I add a little twist. "Use your right hand, fourth finger to play this note". When this becomes too easy I start showing flashcards that have both treble and bass clef and a note on each and they have to play one with the right hand, second finger and the other with the left hand, first finger (sometimes I specify which hand plays which notes sometimes I don't). This develops individual digit awareness and helps develop right and left hand awareness and the ability to use both simultaneously (many students who come in at five have a very firmly instilled hand preference that leaves the second hand playing catch up).
 
I used to put little stickers on a group of notes (say three to begin with and then the group gets larger as the student gets better at the game) and have the student turn their back I would play one of the notes three times and then have the student come and tell me which note (or even notes as they advanced) I played. At first they guess but very soon they know.

I always finished the lessons with the student getting improvisation time where they could play whatever they wanted on my piano. Sometimes I'd tell a story and they'd play the mood music. It's great fun and helps build an understanding of dynamics and tempo.

There are many, many games like this that a three year old enjoys and learns a great deal from while developing their hand strength. Then when their little hands are ready they have a large knowledge base which means they wont be limited to the traditional three note beginning.

Imagine if parents decided that a 3 month old can't turn the pages of her board book by herself so there's no point in giving her one until she can, or their 1 year old doesn't have the strength to use a pencil or crayon properly so we'll  wait until he's 3. We don't do this, we adapt what we expect them to achieve with these "instruments" and we guide them and help them develop the strength and skills in their own way at their own time. I think I prefer this approach.

So while I totally agree with you that there are reasons why the piano is difficult for little ones - I think it can be a limited way of looking at a wonderful resource. All these games I play with my students can be achieved by parents, but there is much to be gained by a child beginning formal lessons with a trained musician and going home and practising and showing off to their parents and family.

Just thought I'd share the way I work around little hands and big keys 

[DrPrimo]

sorry for misunderstanding!  great ideas!!
karma to you,
the doc

[Lappy]

Hi mums and dads!

We were very pleased that so many parents responded to this forum discussion about the importance of teaching our kids music, and we thank you very much for giving us fantastic insight on the subject!

We certainly HAVE been thinking a lot about the subject of teaching music recently – not just because of our desire to complete the development of Little Musician (which we're determined to get out this year), but also because we have been looking for experts to help give our members useful advice and guidance on the subject.

And seeing how everyone has so many questions about music education for our children, we've invited Chris Salter, who is an expert on exactly this topic!



Chris Salter is the founder and CEO of Music Wizard Group. He had no previous music education, but one day he signed up for a group piano class and ended up staying there for 4 years. He went on to get a double degree in Music and Linguistics from SIU, and then a Master’s degree in Musicology from UCLA.

Music literally changed his life, and this led him to founding the Music Wizard Academy, which develops a unique method of teaching children music.

Chris has been gracious enough to offer us his help by joining us at the Forum to answer your questions about teaching your children the wonderful subject of music!

He's also given us a SPECIAL REPORT on the topic of teaching kids music. If you'd like to get free access to this report and to continue to hear from us regarding this subject, please sign up for our Music Mailing list on this page.

I hope that you all sign up to get access to the report, you'll find that it's a very interesting read which I'm sure you'll enjoy.    And in the meantime, we'll try get more things cooking up on our side so can provide you with as much information about this topic as possible - we may even be coming up with special offers from partners so do stay tuned for more on music.

As always, thanks for being such wonderful parents and members of our community.

Cheers,

Lappy

[ChrisSalter]

Just wanted to second the motion on the Kodaly method, that was how I learned piano and music in college, with a very gifted, "no sacred cows" approach by my teacher, Don Beattie. Basically it gave us a physical and visual way to think about songs, notes and solfege. It was also a coordination challenge! I had just taken this "Group Piano" course and had no idea what a genius teacher they had running it. I had no previous experience playing piano and in 2 years was playing a Bach fugue and a lot more. Years later when we developed our game we went back to Don and his wife Delayna and they helped us create the whole curriculum and then the Academy lessons. The  is to not get "stuck" thinking music notation is music. It is merely one representation of music. Chinese exists as a spoken language in dozens of dialects, and a few versions of the written, but the characters are not the language, they are representations of the language, as music notation is a representation of music. Get the kids directly to the music is always the best approach, and then teach them the representation of what they already understand by doing.

If the Chinese used the way we teach traditional music lessons (basic theory, reading, then play) it would be a nation of mutes. Imagine if they had to learn the theory and history of Chinese characters, then to read, then pronounce the words before they could speak! Yet we take that approach with music all the time. Music first, then studies said Franz Liszt, and I agree. If the Kodaly method gets the kids singing, playing, and interacting with the music, it is a great shortcut to real music, and their passion.

[TristanR]

Okay, completely non-expert here, but we love music.  Here are my answers:
-   How important do you think music education is, and why?

Music is wonderful for the whole child.  They benefit from hearing it, it affects mood, trains their ear to be more attentive, motivates them to movement, and is a wonderful way to ingrain scripture, facts, and other fun.

-   What are you currently doing with your child in terms of music education?

We listen to the works of one composer at a time, learning to hear that person's style.  We learn new songs to sing (typically hymns and children's hymns) every week.  We make music with whatever is handy and dance to many kinds for fun.

-   What instrument(s) is your child learning (or do you plan to let your child learn)?

Piano is our basic, beyond that the children are welcome to choose more.

-   What are the problems you face when teaching music (or an instrument)?

Cost!  I am getting ready to have baby #6 and lessons for al lthe kids adds up very quikly.

[KL]

If the Kodaly method gets the kids singing, playing, and interacting with the music, it is a great shortcut to real music, and their passion.

I've heard many good things about the Kodaly method.  One great thing is that they use solfege a lot (or so I understand).

[karmie]

Just wanted to second the motion on the Kodaly method, that was how I learned piano and music in college, with a very gifted, "no sacred cows" approach by my teacher, Don Beattie. Basically it gave us a physical and visual way to think about songs, notes and solfege. It was also a coordination challenge! I had just taken this "Group Piano" course and had no idea what a genius teacher they had running it. I had no previous experience playing piano and in 2 years was playing a Bach fugue and a lot more. Years later when we developed our game we went back to Don and his wife Delayna and they helped us create the whole curriculum and then the Academy lessons. The  is to not get "stuck" thinking music notation is music. It is merely one representation of music. Chinese exists as a spoken language in dozens of dialects, and a few versions of the written, but the characters are not the language, they are representations of the language, as music notation is a representation of music. Get the kids directly to the music is always the best approach, and then teach them the representation of what they already understand by doing.

If the Chinese used the way we teach traditional music lessons (basic theory, reading, then play) it would be a nation of mutes. Imagine if they had to learn the theory and history of Chinese characters, then to read, then pronounce the words before they could speak! Yet we take that approach with music all the time. Music first, then studies said Franz Liszt, and I agree. If the Kodaly method gets the kids singing, playing, and interacting with the music, it is a great shortcut to real music, and their passion.

Maybe it's bc we are talking about really young kids here.  1 year olds, 2 year olds. I have a 2year old. So his dexterity is not quite there yet, so we started with appreciating music - basically exposure, listening lots, introduction to lots of different types of music (easy in our house), and rhythm - note recognition, note values, music terms.  His mental development is more advanced than his dexterity at the moment.  Hopefully it helps in his future music learning.  I've discovered that he seems to have perfect pitch too, bc when he reads a score, the notes are in tune, until he sings the notes in the higher register (he can't reach them).

For my older kids, when they first learnt music - and yeah, I have an 11year old boy who is playing traditional chinese instrument - the erhu. He also plays the very very traditional folk instrument for beijing opera.  This really requires a steep appreciation of that type of music.  And my older 2 children play the piano & violin respectively. All learnt music late at 7 or 8, and all learnt by just "doing". No theory at first.  But that's bc their dexterity is there at that age. And learning theory at a later age - formally, is easier too, bc they encounter all these in their music, and they can infer much more easily.  I think this is not so for our "babies".

[TmS]

It is so easy to get caught up comparing the different methods of music education, it is so important and can bring such joy that we want to make sure we get it right.

I think we all have to remember that music is first and foremost a form of expression. There are techniques that will help your expressive vocabulary become more descriptive and versatile and responsive to the thoughts, feelings and concepts that you wish to communicate but these must be secondary.

I was recently on a tour with a band, we did 15 shows in 17 days. I hadn't worked with our guitarist before and am sad to say I did not enjoy the experience. A brilliant technician but his fingers could not have been more disconnected from his soul.

In limiting ourselves to teaching this style, or learning this method or reading at this age or theory first then play or even play then theory we limit the ability to learn. Music is an expressive art there is no right or wrong way of doing things there are simply many approaches to express your thoughts and feelings some people will like them some will not, some will understand you others will not even fathom the content.

It is not wrong to feel sad or happy yet you can play wrong notes so we begin to link an instrument of expression to certain correct ways of doing things. It is this binding of music into a tight little box of conformity that prevents us from experiencing it as a whole. Children should be exposed to as many different types of music as possible from all different cultures, styles and eras. They should be exposed to as many different sounds as we can as well and then be given the opportunity to take the sounds from their heads and hearts and bring them forth on an instrument - without our judgment of good or bad, tuneful or not tuneful. These things develop.

So many times older students have come to me because they cannot improvise. I have found that students who are not given enough improvisation and creative time on their instruments from the beginning of their tuition (and even better from early childhood) can get into a weird head space about intuitively playing even though they know the rules etc.

All my students experience a vast variety of methods of teaching tailored around a number of factors so that students can think of music in as many ways as they like. When we free them from the idea that there is a right and wrong we can allow ourselves to relax and we really begin to connect with our music.

While we are not all Mozarts it is a wonderful gift to give a human the ability to express through music without inhibition and conformity - I hope I can achieve this with my own son.

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