How to teach writing

[Mandabplus3]

I have been reading a number of threads, blogs and books discribing different ways to teach children how to write. I am in two minds, there seem to be two main camps which have significant results worth copying. In terms of proof the least work has the most evidence!   
I should start by saying both start with copy work for handwriting. But I am mostly looking for a writing curriculum that starts after children can already write a few sentences on their own.
Camp one- the camp the Robinsons, Swanns, and urthemum pitch their tents in this camp but I am not entirely convinced it is a clear cut as it seams.
The basic idea of this camp is to read read read read and read some more. Then you will be able to write. They specify quality literature and most mention vocabulary enhancement as important to better writing. Spelling is mostly done on an as need be basis. If the child's spells something wrong they correct it.
The Robinsons wrote a page a day. Urthemum had her children do mini essays but topic choice seems to be open in both cases.
My problem with this method is I just can't see how these children will learn to write in a pursuasive style as is required in university and college essays. So I asked   


URtheMOM.com replied to my question on facebook- Amanda, I taught a one-semester course entitled Write for College at our local co-op, and I each of my kids volunteered to take it. I also taught a research paper class. So basically, I worked with them for one semester in high school. That.was.it.

Ok so I get that that would work it wouldn't take long to teach pursuasive writing to a well read, high general knowledge, and capable high schooler. ( forgetting the fact that my kids need to write pursuasive writing in grade 2 in Australia). So provided your children are very well read, have internalised the wonderful classical vocabulary and you teach pursuasive writing before university this road could work.

The second camp has a lot of followers but I can't say I found a lot of evidence that it produces good writers (although I think Nee may have the evidence?) this camp is the writing with ease style of learning writing. Also known as Charlotte Mason style. It starts with copy work, ( again using quality literature as a basis) and verbal retells and moves up to more complex ideas. This one includes grammar instruction. To be honest I can't see a lot of point in grammar instruction. If children read a lot grammar is internalised in all but the rarest of cases. I know that's a nice can of worms I just opened.    here is a lovely blogg summary of this next method of teaching
http://raisingethan.wordpress.com/2013/02/04/charlotte-mason-style-language-arts/
It's a great article do read it.
What do you think? Has anyone found any cases of children taught in the second style who excelled in their writing?
If I choose the first method I don't need to add anymore to my after schooling, but I don't know if I can let go of style teaching or if I should.

[sonya_post]

Amanda,

Rules to be good writer: Rule one: be a good reader in whatever genre you want to write in. Rule two - see rule one.

I will also put out an third camp for you to consider. Writing by Imitating. It is how most educated people learned to write for close to 3,000 years.

You can follow the progymnasmata or not. But it is effective and works well. It is probably a combination of the two above approaches. It is more focused than narration, the child can't simply retell what she/he takes from it. And you must read good works to imitate.

My favorite book on writing by imitating is not a curriculum but really a book suited for parents or teens on the subject: http://www.amazon.com/The-Writers-Workshop-Imitating-Writing/dp/1933859334/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1362659572&sr=8-1&keywords=writing+imitating+writers+workshop

Written by a college professor, it gives a parent the tools to implement writing by imitating.

One cannot write unless they have a mental storehouse of sentences to choose from. My oldedest is an excellent writer. This book is pretty much all we used and some internet resources on the progym.

We did some grammar work - basic punctuation and things. However, we love diagramming sentences. It is the best tool for helping a child understand grammar.

[Wolfwind]

Sonya, I'd forgotten that I wanted to buy that book!  It looks so good!  My question is, could it be used in conjunction with the first camp, as a one-semester high-school level class for a well-read child?  Some of the comments on amazon indicate that it was used as a textbook.  That seems to me like it would be the best of both worlds.

BTW, I love diagramming sentences too!  I will do it with my kids just because it's wonderful.

[sonya_post]

Yes, it was a college textbook. And you can use it as a one semester course. However, this is going to fall under "what is your goal". One semester of this is not enough. I am thinking of Rhetoric here. If you do not intend to take the subject of rhetoric and logical argumentation  seriously, then it is good for a semester. If you want your child to understand the times, understand the ways in which the social engineers and politicians shape language to change patterns of habit including voting habits, be able to detect fallacies in reasoning and be able to figure out when he is being scammed, I'd spend a little more time on it. Plus, one semester is not enough to be able to wield the word sword. But that depends on what your goals are. We spent a lot of time on this subject. I have not regretted it at all.

[Wolfwind]

So how did it work to use the book over a long period of time?  Did you start at the beginning and work through one chapter a year or whatever, or did you spiral, touching all the concepts every year but going deeper every year?

I really should just read the book and find out for myself, but it'll take weeks to get here!  I appreciate being able to pick your brains.

[sonya_post]

Wolfwind,

You have time. Don't worry. Most of the time  you spend on this should be when your kids are older. End of elementary - heading into high school. Unless you plan on accelerating rapidly, in which case I'd give them what they need to survive: a semester course.

I read to book primarily to figure out "How to do it." and then I used it as a reference. The exercises in the book can be used for Jr. High kids easily. I would get the book and just read it.

You can stick with narration in the early years and having them retell stories they read. Change it up a bit and make it fun. You can do this until later middle school years. Take ideas from the book and just make it simple for little kids.

go to this thread: http://forum.brillkids.com/homeschooling/which-homeschooling-method-are-you-thinking-of-or-are-currently-using/15/
second page. I wrote what we did for writing. It is one of the things I did right.

[teachingmykids]

I have been thinking about this. Dd's school does a sort of classical approach to writing. They don't do the creative writing and spelling most schools do they teach them the correct way to do it. They are encouraged Ito ask how to spell something if they don't know how and they do some copy work. DD's spelling and writing ability isn't at the same pace as her reading ability which I am OK with. I am wondering if I should work on that or just not worry to much on focus on reading which we are almost at the point of not having to work on anymore. She on her own the other day got a chapter book and started copying stuff down from it working on her spelling and punctuation. For a kindergartner I think her spelling and writing is pretty good but if I compared her to early learners she would be terribly behind. I would rather put more effort into math, science, history and gaining knowledge right now. I hoping by reading a lot and since her school uses a good method I don't have to put lot of energy into writing even if she won't be really ahead of the game in that area. She should have the instruction to be a good writer it just won't be advanced.

[sonya_post]

In kindergarten, don't worry.

She needs a bigger storehouse of words and sentences to be a better writer. I'd just ask her if she can tell you about the story she just read. Can she tell it in her own words? What does she leave out? What does she include? These are things to take a mental note of. When she is really good at retelling a story or a piece from a non-fiction book, she is ready to start writing. I agree with what Manda said earlier. You need to read. Right now, she needs to be reading good books - not twaddle. What the school is doing is probably just fine.

[Korrale4kq]

I didn't learn all the grammar rules and the such in language arts at school. I learnt them in my Japanese class. I remember 10th grade Japanese and the teacher said the word clause.... All we knew was Santa Claws. That is when our teacher realised that we needed some basic grammar instructuction in English before moving on.
Now... In language arts later called English, I learnt what alliteration was every single year.

Now I consider myself well read, I raised myself reading classics and encylocpaedias. But I considered my writing appalling. Although I was good at editing others work.
I was mathematically minded, I needed formulas for writing. I needed to learn sentence structure, I needed to know what verbs, adverbs and even clauses were..... Or so I thought.

I started Uni and jumped right into history and philosophy classes. And in those classes we did a lot of writing. We received a lot of feedback also. In no time at all, I started receiving HDs in those classes.
It was then that I realised  I didn't need formulas and formal writing instructions.  All I needed was to read a lot of examples that set the right tone, then write a lot and get critique. And this is how I see the Robinson, Swann method working.  The kids read daily, they  write daily, they practiced, they got feedback when needed and they improved.  Just like I did. I lived it, it worked.

With my son I plan to do notebooking. He will read about a subject, we will discuss it, watch videos, do experiments. Then he will write about it in his notebooks daily. I will give him feedback, and I assume he will improve.
I will introduce grammar, and punctuation as we go. James already knows what a full stop(period), comma, quoation marks, exclamation mark, verb, nouns, adjective and more are just from reading to me each day.
 I will introduce style by having him read excellent examples and break them down. I will have him read poor examples of work and discuss what needs improvement.

I will not have him do endless langauge arts short answer questions or dastardly multiple choice. I know kids that excel with those, but are completely unable to form a well written paragraph even close to grade level.

[teachingmykids]

In kindergarten, don't worry.

She needs a bigger storehouse of words and sentences to be a better writer. I'd just ask her if she can tell you about the story she just read. Can she tell it in her own words? What does she leave out? What does she include? These are things to take a mental note of. When she is really good at retelling a story or a piece from a non-fiction book, she is ready to start writing. I agree with what Manda said earlier. You need to read. Right now, she needs to be reading good books - not twaddle. What the school is doing is probably just fine.

When I read to the kids I try to avoid twaddle but a lot of what she reads herself is twaddle because she was working through early readers. She is finally getting to a reading level where I can give her better books. She jumped from a 1st grade in the winter reading level to a mid 3rd grade reading level in not much time at all. She used to really struggled with reading and needing to sound out everything but it finally clicked and progress is much more rapid. She just needs more work on multi syllable words. So I am working with her on reading and spelling those and breaking them into syllables.

I have started asking her questions about what she reads. She understands better when she reads things herself then when I read to her so she has been coming a long way. She still only gets a little from the stuff at her higher levels since she is working harder at it The stuff at her instructional level she doesn't get as much as the stuff below it. I have been asking more question about varying aspects of stories because she was focusing on small parts of the story.

[Wolfwind]

, sonya, I didn't actually mean that I wanted to start with a two year old!  I was just impatient to know more because it's so interesting.

Korrale, I agree, grammar is very useful if you study a foreign language at a higher level.  It doesn't have to be endless multiple choice questions (I agree with you, those are awful), but familiarity with the vocabulary of nouns, verbs, etc, as you said, is nice.

Honestly, I think the point of similarity in all of this thread is, for me, relax!  It doesn't have to be writing classes like in school.  Once they can copy, they just need to write.  Whether that's narrations, notebooking, or any topic, it seems like it works OK.  I might use a combination of all of them.  I do want to read the Writing by Imitation book and use some of the ideas with the younger kids, but it will probably end up being a higher-level thing, maybe after age 10 or 12, to take their writing up to college level.

Of course, I will probably change my mind several times before my kids even get old enough to copy!  But it's nice to see that it's not so stressful and doesn't take a packaged curriculum.

[teachingmykids]

Ok she is able to answer questions about the higher level books she can read now. She is changing fast right now. She only answers basic stuff about characters, setting and plot but she is picking up something.

[Mandabplus3]

Thanks guys!
Sonya I have read your wonderful information on the progymnasmata, I was wondering if it was another camp or part of one of these. Seems perhaps it is another camp. I loved the whole idea.
Copying, imitating and using quality literature seems to me to make the most sense.
I can clearly see that my now grade 2 child just doesn't have a large enough word and sentence bank to make any significant writing progress. Interestingly she has recently started using the vocabulary words in the yesterday's classics she is reading her way through. She is using words like marvellous, bother, somewhat etc in her everyday speech. ( very cute!) she sounds less like a 7 year old and more like a young lady. S clearly the quality literature is having some effect!    I postulate that once she is comfortable using the words in her speech she is more able to use them in her writing. I can clearly see the need for vocabulary study now. I am wondering if I am patient enough to wait for the natural vocabulary development brought about by reading good literature or whether I will interfere with a word a day program. 
You know I like the idea of imitation writing excersizes but I hadn't even considered having the children read quality university assignment papers in order to learn the style. Mostly I hadn't thought they were available but of course everything is available for the asking. 
Still not convinced grammar studies are worth while. And diagramming sentences might be fun but would they not learn just as much by reading some more? Or copying?
Teachingmykids: do not be too concerned about whether she understands the content of the harder books as yet. They were not written for kindergarten kids after all! Instead ask her more questions about the easier books. Questions like " what is this characters personality like?" " would you like to be her friend? Why not?"  How do you think he is feeling? Ask questions that are not actually spoken about in the book but are hinted at. This will do much more for her comprehension than the basics in the bigger books.
I have writing with ease. I like it I can see it would be very useful for EL children whos parents want some quick and simple excersizes to extend their child's writing and comprehension. It's a basic program and probably a good place to start for parents not his forum. After that working through the progymnasmata would be wonderful then just before the higher grades of school do a term or two on essay/persuasive writing using university essays as the starting point. ( high distinction essays!)

[Korrale4kq]

Haha. I Said to James the other day "Son, I think you are marvelous".
He looked at me and asked "does that mean I am being rude, good or weird?"

[sonya_post]

Korrale - I loved that quote. So cute!


Diagramming - my son said this was the most helpful thing he'd done as far as grammer studies went. It may not be good for every child, but 1 year of diagramming sentences is particularly if you want to write longer sentences and have them make sense. I do think grammar is helpful, I'm not sure you need 9 years of it. I can be done late middle school and then again high school as a semester course.

@ Wolfwind - I wasn't thinking of using it with your 2 year old. But that is funny. My comment was directed at the fact that you can wait two years and order the book and still be fine. There is no hurry here. The physical act of learning to write takes precedence over coming up with stuff to write about at this age.  Probably until age 6 or so. If your child is a late writer probably even until age 7.  We teach cursive from the beginning so we don't have to take time out to teach it later. And I think cursive from the start is easier. We don't use the computer for papers until high school. The physical act of making that hand go across the paper is good for the brain.

Getting kids to tell you about the stories they read now is not so much about writing later, but about getting them to think about what they are reading and incorporating it into their lives. For early reader books, don't bother. But when you read them real books you can ask, We read a book about "Berlioz the Bear" a bear who plays in an orchestra. The important thing my little guys remembers is that there was an "Aaaangerrry bee. Mommy the bee was really angry."   That is enough.

You need to be careful here as reading stories is not a means to an end. Reading stories is the end in itself. They are used to get to another location, but their primary purpose is for enjoyment. Not vocabulary building, or moral platitudes, or becoming a writer. I don't have time to go into here, but the importance of telling stories and being a story telling family makes in huge difference in a child's life. When you get together with family rarely does any family sit around and discuss math (there are some, I'm sure). You retell the stories of your family, the stories that connect you together and who you are as a "tribe".

One of our favorite activities when my son was little, because he loved stories, was telling them is parts. This is part of education but it is so much fun, it is going to create lasting memories, and your children will not be the wiser. It makes long car trips almost enjoyable. So, I start a story, "Once upon a time there was a little boy named Philip, and he had a dog named Niko, and they were in a forest. Then they saw a big hole.....then what happened." Then pass of the next child - who will probably tell something from a story s/he's read. That is great. Right now we do this with Philip and he supplies the names, and locations, and things like that. When he decides he's ready he will likely just jump in and take his turn. We have wonderful family memories of this. When my oldest was three we went on a hiking trip. We had to hike 3 miles to catch a ferry off an island. We started out very early in the morning, walked along the beach while my son told 1 story for 2 straight hours. He remembers that. i wanted to bleed from the gums, but that has stuck with him. These kinds of things will translate into being better writers later, but for now, just enjoy this part. It is one of the things that probably doesn't accelerate well. 

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