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Author Topic: What science has achieved since Doman?!  (Read 9827 times)
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Korrale4kq
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« Reply #15 on: June 02, 2013, 08:05:06 PM »

I consider myself a strict mum. I know that little kids are capable of understanding more than they are given credit for. I have found after years of working with kids that if I am stricter when they are younger I can then let up with the rules a bit when they are older. This way they feel like they have more freedom, when in reality the good behavior is already ingrained. We then spend less time dealing with defiance, testing limits and restrictions. They then have the chance to explore and do as they wish. I am talking 2-4 years olds here.
And I do say to my son "don't do that, because ____. We do this ____. I have found that if I don't explain why and offer alternatives my son will keep doing it. For example if he is yelling loudly in the store I will say. "James please don't yell, it is hurting other people's ears and can give them a headache. We use our quiet voice. shhh.... softly. Do you want to try speaking In a whisper?"  If I had said anything like "please don't yell." He would continue to yell. Or he would ask why over and over.

I also have made observations of children in that 2-6 year old range that are just wild and what I have seen is that the children that have no rules and restrictions are the ones that are the more wild and are currently pushing the boundaries more than the children that were raised learning the rules.

Right now my son (3.5) and I are having issues with his behavior at the library. And it is my fault. We have been going to the library for years.  I had never enforced library behavior, the quiet voice, no running rules because we have amazing librarians who don't mind the little ones running and raising their voice and being excited and having a love for the library. For many kids in the winter the library is the only place they can get out and run. So I started letting my son enjoy the open spaces. Now whenever we go to the library he still loves to run up and down the aisle and he is having so much fun that he conveniently won't listen.
I regret not teaching him right when at 10 months old when he started running. All I had to do back then was encourage him to walk, and to encourage inside voice when he was older and was more vocal. Now I am dealing with unruly....
Little kids can and do often learn rules fast.

Now that all being said.... I do think there is a difference from letting a child run in the library or to sit still in church than there is having a child water flowers and play in the garden. I too believe that a child has to explore and be a little scientist and learn about the world around them. But they can learn these wonders in many ways. I would never tolerate my son ripping books at any age, or biting or kicking or smacking. Those are things that I would nip in the bud. And frankly I have never had an issue with any of those.

« Last Edit: April 15, 2014, 04:46:55 AM by Kezia » Logged



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Frukc
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« Reply #16 on: June 03, 2013, 10:19:03 AM »


Thanks. What was wrong in the family described - parents corrected their son all the time - bet they did not distinguish between minor improvable behavior and serious bad behavior. And they just said their correction, but never continued, never tried really stop the wrong action, like carrying their son away from a place of bad behavior. Kid just continued, and nothing followed.  They were like a background radio. In result, their child thought that "do not  bet your cousin in face with steel rake" is of the same unimportance as "do not run along the path because you can fall down".

I had to physically defend my child because his parents did nothing except continued talking in prayerful voice. And this boy continued his bad behavior for rather long time. If he disliked something, he did spitting, and he continued it from 1 year to almost 4 years. Once he spit on me and I said to his parents that they should do something or I will put soap in his mouth. And that was the last day he did spitting; his parents stopped it. So, in general, his parents did not do the real correcting and stopped the wrong activity only when others did not bear it anymore, and that was after 3 years of continuous objectively bad behavior. The same was with aggression. From 1 to 4 years he was attacking my girl who is highly sensitive and never beats. There was that accident with steel rake and I started actively correct that child but his parents continued to act like broken radio. It continued for almost a year and than I said to his father just a small part of what I think about his parenting and about his son (you may imagine) - and the bad behavior was stopped in one day, and his aggression towards my daughter never repeated. So their daily correcting was totally useless and unheard and very seldom they did a real correcting.

Well, I will stop about this boy. You may see that I have a problem.  Because I am sensitive too, and I do not know how to defend me, and for too long time I did not know how to defend my daughter.

====

Now I want to talk about our EL children.

Well, my son is definitely much brighter than the kid I described above, and always was. Besides my first kid, almost every other kid seems delayed and I can not evaluate properly.

I know a family where first two kids are very intelligent (PhD and entrepreneur) and the third one is different. In a regular family this third son would have simple job like builder, and be happy. In this highly intelligent family (parents are very intelligent too) he tries to reach intellectual jobs but he cannot. His self-confidence is very low. He looks broken. He tries to participate in intelligent discussions but he is able just to take single words from context. He is talking nonsense using long and complex sentences. He has no friends because people of his IQ use another language and are different. Although his parents do not show any dissatisfaction with him. So I think my both kids should be in a similar level, for their self-confidence. They will never be the same because their tempers are very different. But my second one should be above the average, to feel good in his family.

I am often thinking about the connection between logical thinking and talking. And which qualities are depending from the overall development and which do not. This is what I would like to discuss with you smile

I have documented the development of my kids.

The first one.
8 months - first 3 words.
1.2 years - explosion of vocabulary.
1 year and 5 months: first dialog with me (4 turns); saying "yes"; understanding consequence "you will get your milk if you will let me to dress you".
1.6: counting up to 6; distinguishing and commenting calls of common birds;
1.8 - saying "I want bread" instead of "L. wants bread" (in our language it means also adding a proper ending of word). 
2.2 - trying to tell a story.
2.3: complex sentences with proper times of verbs etc; compiling a story about events of this day.
4.5: reading; adding up to 20;  counting above 100 (it started suddenly).

My second one did exactly the same but one year later. When he was 2.2 his vocabulary suddenly (in one day) expanded from some tens to some hundreds of abbreviated words. When he was 3.3 he started to build complex sentences etc.

The most important thing is that the development of his logical thinking had exactly the same delay. He was 2.5 when he understood "you will get A if you will do B". There are a lot of other parameters which can describe the development of logical thinking. Throwing ball from one person to another. Making sand cake.

Do you also observe this pairing between thinking and talking?

My son definitely was physically able to talk sentences with questions because he was reading them from this powerpoints. But it took half year for him to start to use such sentences by his own.

What was the same for both kids:
they both learned their phonics when they were 1.10;
colors at 1.8;
they both knew at least 100 sight words when they were between 2 and 2.5.
2 years: understanding numbers up to 3;
3 years: understanding numbers up to 4 (I mean understanding the quantity and not mechanically counting like rhyme).
(I know that some kids are more successful in math but I do not succeed; I demonstrated counting and math them every day but they are where they are)
So, these skills depend on something else than logical thinking.

What is special with my second one:
he is reading since 2.10; he is very creative in his playing (much, much more creative than my girl); he is singing all the day and is already singing better than my 5 years old; he likes to play alone.

Probably it seems weird, to bother about the delay of child who is reading since 2.10. It is about my feelings. And I read the newsletter of Testing Mom and here I see that logical thinking is the only that counts, for the evaluation of how smart is a child. Early reading does not count. And in our case, reading really do not pair with thinking.

I find it very interesting. Do you have opinion?


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« Reply #17 on: June 03, 2013, 11:13:21 AM »

Frukc,

In Testing Mom's book ``Testing for Kindergarten'', she lists the 7 abilities children need to test well. So the abilities are seven, and not just one (logical thinking), as you said.

The abilities are:
- language
- knowledge/comprehension
- memory
- math,
- thinking
- visual-spatial
- fine-motor skills. 

Most EL parents are covering these, I think. A child's ability to read will help the knowledge /comprehension bit. Further, it will help the language part, just as Korrale said it helped her son. Thinking is just one part of the whole mix of 7 abilities.

Can you explain what you mean by logical thinking? At least as it relates to a 2-3 year old?

« Last Edit: June 03, 2013, 12:29:36 PM by nee1 » Logged
nee1
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« Reply #18 on: June 03, 2013, 11:58:19 AM »

Frukc, I read this guide sometime ago - www.ncela.gwu.edu/files/rcd/BE017764/Familyreading.pdf

It mentions Sidney Ledson and says the following about him:

``Another guide to early reading appearing in 1975 was Sidney Ledson's Teach Your Child to Read in 60 Days. Though the title tends to put one off, the book is full of good background information[14] and is written with verve. Ledson is a free-lance writer and artist who was born in London and now lives in Ottawa. A single parent, Ledson undertook to teach his two daughters (ages two and a half and four) to read. His purpose was "to let the children enjoy stories at bedtime; it's a nice part of childhood" (p. 13). Though he wanted to provide this pleasure for them, he was, after feeding, washing, and bedding the girls, "usually too tired or in too poor a mood to read fairy tales. The next best thing, therefore, was to teach the girls to read their own bedtime stories" (p. 13).

Eight months after their reading lessons began, Eve and Jean read sixty-two books in a two-week period, fifty-six of which they had never seen before. How many parents could find the time to read a similar amount to their children and, incidentally, find the patience to read them The Three Little Pigs exuberantly for the tenth time?" (p. 59)

Ledson, who readily concedes that he had no preparation for teaching, nevertheless reveals himself to be a self-taught teacher of considerable resourcefulness and imagination. Improvising play methods as he went along, he succeeded in teaching both girls 186 words singly or in sentences formed with the same words, so that at the end of sixty days Ledson felt that the girls had learned the essentials of reading and now needed only to increase their vocabulary and continue to practice reading. In the next two years they read 300 books and seemed permanently "hooked" on reading.'' QUOTE ENDS.


I've highlighted the parts I want to discuss. From the story, Sidney Ledson taught his girls early so that they could read their bedtime stories for themselves. With such a large repository of knowledge, I'm sure those girls could easily ace IQ tests and test out as ``gifted''. So while Karen Quinn might say that early reading is not measured on IQ tests, that's true only to a limited extent. Early reading may not be measured directly on the tests, but early reading may help a child acquire the knowledge, the vocabulary, and the comprehension needed to do well on those tests. For example, from Sidney Ledson's story, his girls read 300 books within the next 2 years. I can imagine the large number of facts and the huge vocabulary they must have generated from such copious reading. Imagine those girls getting tested, say at age 6, alongside their peers who were not reading yet. Do you think their scores would be similar to those of their peers? I doubt.

Thoughts?

« Last Edit: June 03, 2013, 12:28:21 PM by nee1 » Logged
Korrale4kq
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« Reply #19 on: June 03, 2013, 03:28:18 PM »

Frukc,

I am not sure I completely understand what you mean by logical thinking. Some of the ways that you have described it sounds like responsive language development. Telling a child to do something and them following the directions is responsive language. A child using speech to say something is expressive language. A child can have a language delay (or asymetrical development) in either 1 or both of these. James had an expressive speech delay but never a responsive speech delay. Even as a young child, before the age of 1 I could give him 1 step commands such as telling him to pick up a toy or go to his room. About the time he did turn 1 I could tell him "go to your room and bring back your blanket."
As far as what I would consider logical thinking it is more about cause and effect or doing something with intent. Or understanding something by observation. I really can't remember a time when my son didn't do this. But it might have been well established by about 18 months. I know it was well before he could talk. Mind you he could sign. Way before he could talk he was signing sentences like *tree cold, leaves fall down*.
He was also able to do many things following a sequence of events or by drawing conclusions. If I started running the bath he would start to try and take off his clothes. He was completely potty trained before 2, again way before he could talk. He was about to match colors and shapes and do simple puzzles way before he could talk also.
He knew how to get himself a cup of water by going and getting a cup, and using the water dispenser. He knew if he ever made a spill that he had to immediately go and grab a cloth to clean it up. If I started making dinner in the kitchen he would grab the cutlery. If we said the word outside or drive he would run and grab his shoes.



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