Minimum time needed to teach 2 non-native languages successfully?

[momtomany]

My family speaks English (husband and 6 children).  Husband also can speak his native German, but he never does.  I know some French from several years of French in school, but not enough for a conversation... it would be a great language to teach my little ones as Canada is bilingual (job opportunities) and there are lots and lots of resources at the library.  My children all have dual-citizenship Dutch-Canadian (eldest child also has German citizenship!), so I feel Dutch is a language they 'ought' to know.  It's not particularly useful in the job market, and there certainly aren't many resources available, but I know a little from hearing it as a child, I've learned some more as an adult, I can read it, but understanding and especially speaking it is somewhat limited; certainly not fluent.  I am trying to formulate a plan for tackling the goal of teaching them two foreign languages.  I've read before that to learn a language fluently, the kids need about 30% or at least 15hrs/week exposure.  Now, I've also heard that the kids are ready to start learning to read when they are about 5 or 6 years old... many here know it can be done earlier and more efficiently and effectively!  So my question really is, can a young child master a foreign language with fewer than the recommended 15hr/week if the method(s) used are more efficient?  I think everyone will agree that reading a foreign language book with them will do far more for their language learning than having the radio on in the background in the target language.  Has anyone successfully taught their children a foreign language, that they aren't very strong in, with Doman method or other highly efficient way themselves (not daycare or other native speaker)?  How many hours were dedicated to teaching, and what percentage of the time was used for flashcards, foreign movies/shows, reading books, etc.?  How successful were your efforts?  Myself, I love to learn more of other languages, and I will enjoy so much to learn right along with them.

Here is another thought... for an adult to learn a language of average difficulty or somewhat related to their native language, with an hour a day using efficient methods it can be accomplished in 6 months... no classes, teaching yourself using language tapes, various literature, flashcards using spaced repetition ("anki" is a great program available for download for free... http://anki.com/), television/movies.  I suggest a book called "How to learn any language" by Barry Farber (who taught himself a couple dozen or so languages!) and this website    http://how-to-learn-any-language.com/e/index.html    if you are interested.  Knowing that there is a much more efficient way to learn a foreign language for adults makes me wonder if a Doman flashcard method, an organized adult-led system, can help to achieve learning a 2nd or even 3rd language in less than the 15 hrs/30% recommended by language experts.  Comments?  Has anyone done it?  Any language acquisition experts out there?

[nohayo]

Dear momtomany

Honestly, I am no expert. But I was very interested in your post

When I counted your languages, i think you'd like to teach 4, right? (english, french, german and dutch)

1. I think you can easily reach the 15 hours a week target if you divide the languages, you teach two and your husband the other two, maybe alternating the days. So for example on sunday you speak and do english and your husband does german and on monday you do dutch and your husband does french and so on ... you'll definitely get enough exposure then.

15 hrs/week is 2/hrs per day for each language, so if you alternate the languages that would be 4 hrs/day for each language. If you use the language to converse with your children, I'll bet you talk to your children much more than 4 hours a day



2. I would say if your not very fluent and you want to do all the teaching than you should definitely become more fluent. You don't have to wait until you are fluent to teach but I'd say try and get a head start.  A good method for you to become more fluent is to go the children library section, grab books in foreign languages that are really basic, like 1 sentence a page and, with a dictionary in arm, learn

Also maybe rely on songs and cartoons in foreign languages to help. Personally I wouldn't rely on too much TV because I wouldn't want my kids watching too much so I'd try and go to playgroups in foreign languages etc... I wouldn't hire a foreign nanny either because I'm against nannies unless a person is desperate, especially if i don't understand what they are saying!


3. I do believe there are more efficient ways to learn a language. Do you know Tim Ferriss, the author of the book "the 4 hour workweek", he has an amazing blog where he talked about learning foreign languages effeciently among other things; here's an article link:
http://www.fourhourworkweek.com/blog/2009/01/20/learning-language/

He also recommended this guy:
http://www.michelthomas.com/


 

[momtomany]

Thank you for your reply.  The first idea won't be suitable for us... my husband isn't comfortable at all to speak in German and in French I think he only knows this lovely phrase "voulez-vous couchez avec moi ce soir?" (which is only for my ears naturally!).  

Well, with some ideas and suggestions from people like you, I am beginning to formulate a little plan:

Step 1  I will gather more Dutch resources (music CD's, books, children's movies(?!)...not readily available here in Canada though; it'll take some searching.  I will start making a collection of Dutch picture/word flashcards... I think I will choose a different coloured cardstock for the foreign words (perhaps a different font too?) so that it'll always be distinguished from the English words.

But I will begin majoring in French for the foreign language, because the materials are already so readily available.  Also my older children will be beginning/(and getting back into) the Rosetta Stone French as part of our homeschool curriculum.  They are not excited about it, but as we live in Canada and the kids in school must learn some, then I am telling them that they just have to learn some too.  I could have a 'rule' that any television watching when Daddy isn't home has to be in French.  (Daddy hasn't any interest in promoting French, but he wants them to learn things of course... he would say 'why not German, Dutch, or Spanish?!)  When I make my flashcards for French, (again a different colour cardstock), then I will use words from the Rosetta Stone program that the kids are using and also from any books that they are very intersted in (like trucks for DS5yr).  I think I will start in a more comfortable way.... building everyone's vocabulary (including my own) first.  I'll use "anki" (a spaced repitition flashcard program free on the internet) for myself... I assume that any of the kids can learn new words as fast as or faster than myself.

Step 2  After we are building a good base of vocabulary, then I will get/make books with clear pictures and simple sentences.  Perhaps by this time the older ones could start helping me 'teach' the littles with the flashcards (reinforcing their French lessons).  Any movies/music will be useful perhaps just to get the ear/tongue used to the sound of the language at this point.

With Dutch I will continue to play music/movies for my own enjoyment (as I've done for years now already) and continue to collect more resources (especially books!) and perhaps have a cousin of mine help me with translating our favourite stories from English to Dutch.  I can make a pretty good Dutch sound (so I'm told) because it is a language I heard quite often as a baby and child.

Step 3  When our French program is going well, perhaps after a few months or so, I will consider whether to add Rosetta Stone Dutch to the school-aged kids curriculum (I own this already)... but I expect resistance to this so I don't know.  I could then start adding a Dutch-Doman program and approach it in the same way as French.  All along I will try to find time to learn more Dutch and French myself, so that when I feel comfortable (or almost comfortable) I could start speaking in a foreign language with the younger ones... probably when Daddy isn't home (I don't want to make him feel left out).  I'd have to make up some sort of 'language rules' at that point, probably translating often for the older ones so they don't ever feel like they are treated different or something.

Step 4  When we have acheived some sort of fluency, then I think it would be time to find some more ideas to enhance our learning and take it to a higher level... native speakers, foreign students, perhaps a vacation or two... so that the kids can see that knowing another language can be a truly useful thing and perhaps they will then embrace it more.

Step 5  Perhaps someday my husband will feel encouraged to 'go German' on them.  That would be nice, but there is no way that I could teach it to them (just my pronunciation alone is awful...'sounds Dutch' he says).  Spanish is a lovely language that I learned in school for a couple of years, but as it is all on my plate right now, I can't even dream of that possibility right now... maybe if my 'plan' works really well, then someday?  I don't know.  My DD15yr wants to learn Italian... she just thinks it sounds beautiful.  I told her that when she completes Rosetta Stone French level 1, then perhaps I could try to find the $ for Rosetta Stone Italian.

Am I just dreaming to think that I could help my children master other languages with some degree of fluency?  We homeschool, so daycare or immersion school won't be considered.  Does ANYONE have a successful experience teaching another language under similar circumstances?

[linzy]

I think your ideas sound great and I am even feeling inspired. I speak Spanish daily at work (mainly medical) but still don't feel comfortable teaching it and I used to speak French quite well, but living in an area without native speakers I haven't spoken it in years. I also took conversational Latin throughout highschool and College, and would feel comfortable teaching that to my son, though I suppose most people don't speak Latin...maybe just work on teaching root words. I think the number one question for us would be which to start.  Spanish is spoken by many people in my areas, but my husband prefers French...I suppose I should just choose one.

[ed]

for French do you know Assimil courses and Pimsleur french? these cd's are easy to hear every time you wont and I'm sure that they'll make your french more fluently after 3-4 months
your post is very interesting for me,
my son speaks italian (we live in Italy) he understand polish (my native language) but he doesn't speak polish at the moment (I'm dreamming about a long travel to Poland where he could hear more polish)
from 2 years I'm trying to learn english with him (I'm much better now:) we are watching a lot of short cartoons in eglish, nursery rhymes: someone said that it's not enough to learn but I'm sure that at the moment I know a lot of specific english words (without course) and I'm sure that my son knows english words better then I
with this hope I'm doing with him some excercises in french and spanish every day (my motto is: even only one new word for a day will make 365 for a year)
I' m doing a little laminate dictionary with words translate in 5 languages:
when he'll grow up he can use all this resources
it's important to lear seriously  then it will bring results
ed

[Quiet Cricket]

I read your post and the other replies with great interest since I am very interested in teaching my son (just turned 2) German, have tried a few things (and found a few good resources, below) but have recently run into some puzzling issues which I hope someone has experience with!

 Actually, I don't care what foreign language he is exposed to, but German is what I am most comfortable with.  However, I am far from fluent so I have a hard time just including it in our daily activities.  I try to say phrases here and there in German, or say the German word for things.  I was so excited when "das Auto" was in the first 20 words that he said -- he would say "Auto, Auto' when I would start speaking German, so it seemed he knew when he was hearing German versus English, and would respond with the only German word he could say.   When he was about 9 months old I bought two books to use with him, "Berlitz Kid's German Picture Dictionary" (there are other languages too) and "Kids Stuff German" (also available in other languages).  The picture dictionary is great, I love it, and at first he seemed to like it.    "Kids Stuff German" is great for me although I haven't used it as much as I should.  It is basically a phrase book of phrases to use with babies and kids.  For example, from the time I got the book, I got in the habit of saying "Ich wechsel dir die Windeln" when I was changing his diaper.  My original goal was to learn a few appropriate everyday phrases each day and incorporate them into our daily activities but of course that hasn't happened. 

So here is the puzzling issue I am having now...many times when I start speaking German to him, he says "no, Mommy, no, don't say that!"  If I keep going he will put his hand over my mouth!  He is very verbal, at 25 months he regulary says 6-7 word sentences and uses most pronouns correctly.  Maybe he doesn't want to go back to not being understood after now finally I can understand most of what he says and he can express his needs and wants most of the time?  Now when we read the picture dictionary, he seems to get confused.  For example, I'll open it to the "Tiere" page and start pointing to pictures and saying the German word for the animals.  He'll sit and listen until I get through 5 or 10 and then say, "no, no, Mommy, that's a HORSE!  That's a COW!" like he's pointing out to me that I'm not using the right word.  Does anyone have experience with this?  Any suggestions?  I'm finding I am losing motivation to improve my own fluency when it only seems to upset  him anyway for me to speak German.

[wenjonggal]

Hi,
Sounds like you're really motivated, but I am very confused as to why you would put finding students or other native speakers at Step 4?

It seems that exposing yourselves (you and the children) to  fully fluent person speaking a total language effectively, with proper intonation, grammar, context, inflection, idioms would be a great motivation and role model. I am learning chinese (mandarin), and trying to keep it for my son (whose native language was Mandarin but now he is really anglophone). We found someone to come into our house right away. It needn’t be a language teacher, though someone who speaks well without some exotic regional accent or lots of slang would be best. But someone who would give you phrases that would be helpful for you, that you could hear the whole “way” the “beat” of speaking in that language, vs individual vocabulary words. Someone who can give you on the spot correction of your pronunciation and usage?

And the interest of having that “special friend” come over can totally motivate the kid to want to communicate in that language. We have a woman who comes over once a week for an hour or two. She helps me with vocab and sentences for everyday things, making a meal, getting him dressed, what we did the last week, looking at photo album and showing it etc. I also now have a university student who comes to play with my son, and only in chinese... he resists me speaking Chinese, or esp reading books to him: he seems to like flashcards and Dora the Explorer in Chinese, but this student just speaks ONLY chinese with him, and when he sees her coming he tries Chinese. It is so fun to hear him trying English with her and when she continues in Chinese, he will then repeat the chinese after her.

I am stumbling along myself, not fluent: I can say “oh, there is a lion, there is a snake” but if there is an earthworm or a cheetah instead, I would have to find a dictionary, and even then probably not say it right, whereas a native speaker can usually answer a child’s (and your) questions right away.

Anyways, I am doing English (my native language), French (the local language in Quebec) and Mandarin, and it is going fine. The other day I did a whole set of flashcards, just saying the words in mandarin, and he gave me almost all the right english responses, and was thrilled when I turned over the shizi and it was a lion after he’d said Lion. We together watch dvds, esp with songs or stories, and then I sing the songs when we play or walk in the stroller. Then I get more cds and dvds with those same songs, and he is thrilled to recognise them and starts to sing along all the chinese words....

I really try to make it as multimedia and normal as possible... conversational, watching dvds and books, playing etc... I do Chinesepod.com myself, as well as grammar books and reading children’s books with a dictionary, and then the other “fun” stuff with him...

btw, as he differentiates more between the languages (and they will: my son can point out an english sentence or a chinese sentence in the same book), it is likely they will develop preferences... I just stick to French if he speaks English... I see he understands the French as he gives correct and appropriate responses in English. I would say, yes, it is a cow, it is also a vache in French, un nai niu in Chinese. One of the advantages of being multilingual is understanding that there is more than one way to designate something... it: Cow is just one name for the same animal to many people. I do find it helps to have something, that is like a treat, like Dora, ONLY in that language... if he wants Dora, he has to listen to Chinese.

Best of luck!

[momtomany]

Why did I not list 'finding a native speaker' as one of the first things to try?

Well, the first ideas to try that I listed are things that I can figure out how to do more easily and don't cost much money.  I think it is maybe hard to find a native Dutch speaker willing to come over a couple of times a week (we live 15 minutes out town--population of about 150,000 people) and also I think that when we are on the road to learning some Dutch already, then my husband will maybe see more of the importance of spending a little more money to support that learning opportunity.  Dutch speakers are all such good English speakers..... in my house there are 7 English speakers (going on 8 because the baby can understand English but not speak yet) and I think it would take that Dutch speaker (living in Canada.... very likely a good English speaker also) some kind of self-discipline to stick to the Dutch speaking, even with a bunch of kids all excited and yapping at him/her in English.  (Maybe they'd just have to agree up front to PRETEND that they don't know any English!)  You're absolutely right about the lack of idioms and common usage that I'd be able to offer them myself, but as for pronunciation, it is not a language I'm totally new at like your Chinese.... for all of my childhood I listened to Dutch speech almost daily, at the very least weekly, and several native Dutch speakers have told me that I say things just fine.... Dutch sounding.  So even though my parents didn't really try to teach me Dutch, I am still thankful that they used their Dutch often (when they talked about money or family! Or speaking with other Dutch speakers) and gave me the ability to learn Dutch easily and to make Dutch sounds.... that is often frustratingly difficult for an adult language learner who was never exposed to their target language as a little child.

I have read and own and totally love Barry Farber's book "How to Learn Any Language"... and I think one of my first priorities should be to learn to speak Dutch fluently myself... I'm doing my flashcards daily again and started working my way through the rest of a Dutch language program I have.  But thank you for your post because I realize more the advantage and importance of getting someone to come into our home... for the kids, but just as much to complete my own Dutch learning.  I will definitely put the word out to friends/aquaintances in the near future about what I'm looking for and maybe I'll be fortunate to find that person at a price that we can afford.  Thank you for your inspiring post... you are giving your little blessing a great gift.

[wenjonggal]

Ahh, now it makes more sense why "native speaker" was down at list item #4! ;D Though really, I found our native speaker by mentioning to the guy from the local hardware store installing my heater, and his girlfriend happened to be Chinese. Of course, my son is visibly chinese (or at least asian) so language often easily comes up, and it is often easier to suspect
that someone is a chinese speaker... Dutch stand out less if you are in North America or Europe! Anyways, she just asks a token $20 for a visit once a week, and it is more friendly than a real tutor (I used to pay $40 for a professional Swedish tutor).

And the other woman I found via the "volunteering" section of a local college want ads... she loves to play with my son, and I don't pay her. I also try to take phone numbers of people I meet out who speak Chinese, who have kids... it is surprising how many there are. We even ran into Chinese moms and kids at Saskatoon public library, in Saskatchewan... it is smackdab in the middle of the prairies, and not very big city. The dutch are pretty spread out, so it might be possible to find someone by posting ad in the paper, college, even community centers or laundromats! You never know!

And yes, I agree, upping the parent's fluency is a great start. I definitely work on that as much as my child's. Best of luck! Sounds like you are way ahead with your family background... a bit like me with Swedish and German (neither of which I am doing with my son).

[Sapna1322]

My son is 3 now and he speaks 3 international language(English,Hindi and learning Spanish) and 2 national language (Indian).I speak in my mother tongue with my son and my husband speaks in his own mother tongue and that how my son came to know 2 national language.And Hindi is Indian national language so we both speak in Hindi with my son.
As we stay in USA so he knows English and Spanish he learns in school.
It's really easy 2 teach diff languages to our kids.We just have to speak with them in between of our known language.I did the same.I use to speak in English with my son in the morning and and the evening we use to speak English and some other language.If parent knows only one language than u should worrry take ur child to ur relative or friends who speak diff language.Or try to learn basics of some other language and start speaking with them...It's easy ...but little effort can change ur childs life.....After all MOTHERS CAN DO ANYTHING......

[floong]

Hi everyone. May I seek help from you for my situation.

My daughter is going to be 17 months old. She cannot speak anything apart from "ball ball" (as she has a crash on round objects......), not even Mama or Papa. We usually speak to her in Cantonese at home and her grandparents speak Mandarin to her. She goes to palygroups three times a week (led by French, English and Mandarin-native teachers respectively) I teach her LittleReader daily so I speak to her in English everyday. Also we will play her DVDs and CDs of English songs once daily. She understands the English she learned from LittleReader as she could give me the correct paper flashcards when I tell her the words. I know a little bit of French and would sing the French songs from playgroups to her at home from time to time.

I was told that babies treat different lauguages the same. Their synapses get established by exposing them to different lauguages at an early stage, and it would be easier to learn different languages at a later stage. However, somebody told me that teaching so many languages to babies may confuse them and delay them from speaking. I am wondering if this is our case.........

[momtomany]

You would find a lot of answers at the website  multilingualchildren.org
They have a huge and open forum and lots and lots of articles and good advice.  This is just what you're looking for to answer your questions, ease your mind, formulate a good language learning plan.... little children are incredible when it comes to learning languages!

[rawalika]

no need to worry, some children takes some time to talk. but they can understand very well. ur child understands what you and ur relatives speak. so, dont bother. my daughter is 20 months, she can understand 4 languages. say some words is all these languages. don't pressure them to speak. but we have to speak clearly.

[wenjonggal]

To floong:

My son was adopted at 22 mos from China... he really didn't say anything except wawa (which he seemed to use for water, either bath, or drinking... strange since shui is the mandarin word for water) and ayi (aunty... what the children call the orphanage workers or any ladies in their mother's generation). He babbled babytalk all the time. Within a few months of being here in Montreal, he understood English well enough to follow 1-3 instructions, and within 6 months, his French understanding was good too. But he mostly said Meh, mah, nah, neh, and finally mama. Thank god for sign language or we never would have understood him, in any language!

At about 28 months he was evaluated in speech therapy, and he was on target for receptive speech (understanding others) but on expressive speech (speaking himself), wayyyy behind, and they were afraid it was a learning disability. We got on a waiting list, and he was scheduled for 6 sessions starting at about 37 months old... All this time we were doing English, French and Mandarin, as well as Signing time. He was pronouncing a few more words, mostly in English, but badly.

Then suddenly about 36 months, he had a speech explosion. Before it, he'd say "mah!" and sign helicopter, and I'd say clearly "helicopter!" and he'd repeat "MAH!" And suddenly I'd say "helicopter!" and he'd repeat "hewicopta!" What a huge difference. The speech therapist was amazed... he changed from being 18 months behind in English to being in the lower end of normal. We did do a lot of work on using different verb tenses ("I am singing" not just "I sing") and properly pronouncing ("water" not "wawa"). They decided he doesn't have a learning disability or physical impediment (he has cleft palate repaired) but he'll do follow up this fall. They think it is a combo of personal development rate, having had a cleft palate when small, and changing languages, and then doing many language. But they said to continue with the three languages, no problem.

Even though at 3 yrs old he had an English speech explosion (though still behind many kids), he was not speaking French, only understanding it very well. We live in a mostly francophone community, he has French friends and goes 3 days a week to French daycare, but would always reply in English. Then about three weeks ago (he will be 4 in Nov) he started doing the same "explosion" in French! He uses a lot of FRench words and phrases if you speak to him in French now, and will repeat in French. Before: "dog" "say chien!" "dog"! Now. "dog" "say chien!" "chien!" LOL!

I am wondering if it isn't just taking so much in, listening, understanding, and in more than one language. And then finally, they are ready to actually SPEAK! It is such a surprise when it changes over a couple of weeks.

Of course if you really have concerns, go to a speech therapist, and they will do an evaluation and a followup. A good one will not discourage you from doing multiple languages. Your routine (with the playdates etc) sounds fantastic.

[floong]

Thank you so much for all your encouragement. It is good to get support from others as my in-laws sometimes raise queries for so many language exposures. I shall have faith and keep up with the routine!

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