Memorization method

[DadDude]

Why is spaced repetition not better known? Why isn't it used in schools?

http://larrysanger.org/2012/05/why-is-spaced-repetition-not-better-known/

[PokerDad]

been waiting for your next installment, thanks!!

the biggest "ah-hah!" moment for me regarding spaced repetition was really in reviewing the supermemo site a few years back and discovering that there's a huge difference in how you phrase things or set up the cards. I did cards for years, but no where near the sophistication that I do now... and the whole concept of active review vs. passive review (my cards used to be just for passive review)... LOL @ the person that believed "testing" had no merit to long term retention in the WTM thread - very clearly established that it DOES.
Thanks again DadDude!!

[DadDude]

Well, now it has been exactly two weeks since we started using spaced repetition software systematically. I'm now a true believer. I've learned a few things:

(1) The questions should be as brief and easy as possible. (The Supermemo tips emphasize this, but I didn't pay attention closely enough.) The nice thing is that you can revisit difficult questions and make them easier at any time.

(2) It's counterproductive to do too much in one day. Keep the number of questions added under 20, and better yet under 15. Then your review sessions won't be too arduous, you'll enjoy yourself, and you'll be able to remember things more easily. Simply avoid the more recherche details, ones that your child does not really need to know. Also, if your child insists on learning all the names of the seas in the Mediterranean and all the capitals of Central American countries, in one day, added on top of your usual quantity of questions, put on the breaks. It will not take one day, it will take several days...

(3) Review twice a day, once in the morning for the day's newly-scheduled items, and evening for new items added during the day as well as items missed in the morning (which are automatically scheduled, unless you tell the Supermemo system not to do so).

The main reason I'm so enthusiastic about spaced repetition for homeschooling (and as a homework supplement, I imagine) is the 95% guarantee that the information put into the system is actually memorized. Pick any 15 simple items from your child's school day. You can guarantee that your child will know them almost perfectly in five years, almost all of them, as long as you stick with daily use of the software. If you're adding 15 easy questions a day (rough guess), my guess is that the total review time can be around 30 minutes (rough guess). I think it is time extremely well spent--30 minutes daily for a guarantee of near-perfect memory of a huge number of fundamental facts about everything. Huge number = over 25,000 "Q & A" formatted facts in five years.

It is frankly a travesty that educational psychologists have not insisted that all new educators learn about this method, and that school systems and individual teachers do not use it. If you want a single tool that could solve the problem of ignorance among students in the U.S., have them use Supermemo (or better a user-friendlier but less powerful version of the same) for a half-hour a day.

We're continuing to listen to recordings from a month ago, and as soon as we have no more one-month-old recordings to listen to (except poetry and myth, which I still summarize without making recordings about--they're easy to do), we'll switch to our "one season later" review--in fact, we started recording summaries exactly one month and one day ago!

[susankhan]

DadDude,

Do you feel that this program follows the above method?  http://www.freeworldu.org/static/index.aspx   We use the FREE version.   I have done a few lessons.  If they get the answers wrong we review.   Not sure if anyone else has tried this program.  Any reviews both positive and negative would be greatly appreciated   If you click on flash card index you can try any of the lessons..  Thank you kindly...



Susan Khan

[susankhan]

Here is  a little more on the program <a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/kOcTgkZzYwc&rel=1" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/kOcTgkZzYwc&rel=1</a>

Susan Khan

[DadDude]

Nice! I didn't know about that!

It's vaguely like that, although spaced repetition software makes the determination when next to show a card, and it's quite good at making the decision, too.

The story of how freeworldu.org came about is quite similar to that of how watchknowlearn.org and readingbear.org came about!

Another big difference between that method and what I'm doing with H. is that I make the flashcards myself based on what we read. This means that we're always reviewing cards based on things that we've recently read, which helps what we've read to stick in our heads better. I am not sure I can recommend studying a lot of flash cards at this level, separately from a systematic study of a subject. I think it is very important that one fully understands what one attempts to memorize.

Frankly, I'm still not 100% sure whether it's more effective, for purposes of general recall of a text, to use 3-5 questions for a text versus a recorded summary. You can fit a lot more information into a summary, and while of course the student won't get all of that into explicit memory, he'll certainly have a lot more in implicit memory. As we both review questions and review old recordings, I find myself comparing the effects of the two on my own understanding. The recordings evoke a whole narrative and the facts, even if they are less firmly grasped, do have a better-contextualized place in one's conceptual framework than individual questions and answers.

[susankhan]

Thank you so much for your response   I am going to try this method alongside of all the others we use for homeschooling.   I do use different alpha wave music while my kids are doing their work and I have been amazed by the results.   It has been a pleasure reading your posts over the years and I look forward to many more.   Oh and on another note www.watchknowlearn.org is one of my  favorite sites...

Susan Khan

[Kimba15]

I have been following this thread with great interest. I have downloaded the supermemo and Anki software to have a play but I am one of these people that is frustrated easily by software that I have to read tooo much into to get working. Patience is a virtue it is not one of mine

My eldest dd seems to need alot of repition to remember something which is why I am interested in the spaced repition for maths especially where Ican go over the maths facts over and over again until it is mastered.

I was wondering though how much of everything you learn needs to be remembered? All? 80% or 50%? How much needs to be remembered to have a sufficient building block for the next level of knowledge?

[DadDude]

You decided to have kids, and you have no patience. What's wrong with this picture?

Just kidding! Just kidding! My kids make me lose patience on a regular basis.

Believe me, unless you like reading documentation and don't mind searching (I just use Google instead of any online search function they might have) for the answer on the website, Supermemo is not for you. Really, the only reason I've stuck with it is that I just can't see how to re-use the questions I'm writing now for baby E. when he gets around to tackling the books. Anki is not totally straightforward either, but if you want something really simple, but still powerful enough, try Mnemosyne, which is 100% free.

I don't know that there is any point in using this sort of software with children under a certain age. I just don't know what the age might be. After the age of five or six, they start being able to remember things better long-term. I was amazed that H. had almost completely forgotten--like it's a new book--Tales from the Odyssey, which I'm pretty sure we read only a year ago or so. We also listened to it. That's quite a few hours spent with it, and yet he remembers only the most dramatic, basic facts about it. You might say that's a good reason to use spaced repetition. I'm sympathetic to that idea...but he would naturally remember stuff better after a certain age. Now we're re-listening to it, mostly because we didn't have anything else ready to listen to, and I'm pretty sure he'll learn a lot more of it in a year, around his 7th birthday. We'll see!

How much of everything you learn needs to be remembered? Deep question. I don't know. Even putting a percentage on it is problematic because, well, how do you count up the facts that you learn? Do you count simple inferences? Do you separate each individual separable fact into its own item? If you are a "splitter" of facts instead of a "lumper," my guess is that the proportion of extremely well-studied, "mastered" stuff would be quite low.

My guess is that research has been done on this, but I don't know what it might say.

Of course, what makes it a "deep" question is the stuff that can't be empirically researched, i.e., how important is factual knowledge?

You don't need to have remembered much at all to have a sufficient building block for the next level of knowledge, i.e., being able to understand and benefit from it. Using spaced repetition can be justified only by a desire to get knowledge more firmly or more extensive than necessary for gathering higher levels of knowledge later on.

[PokerDad]

I know much has been made about the 95% long term retention claim. I'm sure this figure is derived from their vast store of feedback.

I wanted to drop a quick update that I felt was pertinent. I've been using Anki for a few different topics (each separated with its own deck), and am currently at 95.8% for my "mature" cards (Anki classifies cards as either mature, young, or new). I'm not sure at which point a card is classified as mature, but would venture to guess around 4-6 weeks.

A few comments of my own. I've started using both audio and picture clips in my cards when appropriate. If this is something desired ultimately, then I suggest starting off using these features. I'd presume other features such as video or internet pages or any other multi-media that you want to someday add to your decks be done sooner than later. I wound up spending many hours updating my decks, and wished I had just done it right the first time through. It was worth it though.

I've also found that I can go a lot longer in one sitting by toggling decks. One of my decks requires very deep thought is used not so much to memorize as to train patterns of thought (this is one of the more arcane uses, barely mentioned in the list on supermemo). That deck taxes me greatly, but by toggling onto another deck after so many minutes, I can then toggle back and continue. This transition is seamless.

I have a hunch that the length of time a person is able to go with their reviews is related to two things: 1. development - experts recommend timeout disciplines at around 1 minute duration per year of age of child, for example..., BUT... 2. training, early learning kids tend to have greater attention spans than the average for a reason.

Through training or natural development, a child can increase the length of time using spaced repetition, or any other type of study method including reading, etc.

Breaking mental memorization tasks into chunks throughout the day is a very tried and true method. A repetition spaced a minute apart will not work the same as repetition spaced 3 hours apart. Doman incorporates this idea into his suggestions (doing the EK cards a minute at a time, but spacing them throughout the day). I believe this is a great way that H is using it (morning and night) and allows the newer content to be reviewed prior to bedtime (sleep being a nice ingredient to forming a memory).

That's my 2 cents. will be eager to read further updates down the road!

[ReadingWhisperer]

The Shaping Reading Brains approach asks early years teachers to do little and often. Much of the work happens alongside day to day activities in the early years- eg when lining up to wash hands, playing in the sand. Around 10 minutes would be spent with all children together- but most is in small groups- short, 2 or 3 minute blasts - that are fun!! Much of the info we are 'programming' into their brains happens without them having to say anything -although the approach develops oral abilities We start from speech- to develop reading brains- changing the way in which they understand and process speech sounds- helping them identifythe smaller parts (phonemes) so that they understand WHY we use print as we do, to represent speech sounds. ut the idea is the same as you are suggesting- little and often- working with specific parts of the brain- and developing the brains ability to do much more!!

So although the principle isnt the same- ie we do NOT encourage parents to ask children to memorise whole words- children WONT need to memorize sight words (they can only retain a few tousand anyway so not worth it) as this approach helps children utilize the brain to actually work out print more easily.

We very much support Dr Tallal's work- Children of the Code- and resources eg FastForWord- which uses the latest research into brain pasticity to help ANY child read and spell - developing reading brains. If you are interested in neuroscience it may be worth taking a look at her work

At Read Australia we are developing early intervention programs along these lines- to prevent difficulties- and teach as if ALL will have these difficulties. This prevents difficulties for those who would have had difficulties- and helps those who find it easy simple fly !!

http://www.ncas.rutgers.edu/paula-tallal
 

[DadDude]

Hi ReadingWhisperer--I'll certainly look into the things you mention, but you should be aware that I am not using or advocating the use of spaced repetition for learning to read. We might add some such feature to ReadingBear.org (I'm discussing it with the programmer behind Supermemo, who it turns out I already knew!), but as Reading Bear is phonics-based, that feature would be phonics-based, too. I agree with you that children shouldn't be asked to memorize whole words; I'm probably the biggest phonics advocate on BrillKids! My interest in this thread concerns methods to get a 6-year-old to remember various kinds of academic knowledge (he's been able to read since he was two).

As you probably know, the "little and often" principle is (around here) closely associated with the work of Glenn Doman.

[Kimba15]

You decided to have kids, and you have no patience. What's wrong with this picture?

Hahah DadDude don't worry not offended children have taught me a little more patience but not much.

I do love the Idea of spaced repitition!!! I certainly think that i will be doing it once miss S starts school.

[ReadingWhisperer]

"If I thought there were a sure-fire way to give my son Super Memory, so that he remembered everything he read, I'd do that. But I don't think there is such a method. There are techniques to make memorizing easier, but they take time. And I'm "right-brain" training as a baby might help, but I want to see data on that before I start spending a lot of time."

Im not sure of the benefit of him remembering what he's read for the sake of remembering it -at six- better to focus on understanding what hes read, and loving reading so he reads more- and can then process the information more quickly, and retain more....A desire to want to read and learn more is, in my opinion, most important...the foundation. The more he reads (varied types of course) the more he will be able to interpret the text, and also be able to then do complex comprehension activities. If its for retaining facts then there are some interesting techniques but at six my focus would be on interpretting the text and in developing oral abilities/ verbal intelligence .   

I do find memory interesting - and especially how world champions do it! To remember names etc they will say not to try to remember the name- instead to find a story and association.  For example they could be introduced to 50 people who will tell them their names. Instead of remembering the name they will look for a distinguishing feature- that will be there when they next see them (ie not a red sweater as they may not wear it next time!) - and make a clearly association. Fascinating. The only way I can now remember names! And when doing this type of activity with pre-school aged children- eg trying to remember what is on the tray - I then cover it- and they have to remember - we practice this. So they might have 5 objects- they create a story about them - and can remember all! eg they imagine themselves opening the gate wearing a hat, walking down the path with yellow daffodils to the left, finding a can of tuna on the doorstep and wondering 'whos put that there?' opening the door and finding Santa (to remember hat, daffodils, can of tuna, pic of Santa) Some of the children can remember 20 objects after having only 60 seconds to 'memorize' them!- and these are 4 year olds!!!  Brain training is all a part of Shaping Reading Brains- because we're really working on learning in general :-)  

Em
ps I am not using or advocating the use of spaced repetition for learning to read either!!! Absolutely not. Phonological awareness and phonics (and the development of verbal intelligence) are the foundation for my approach 'Shaping Reading Brains'- incase interested - http://youtu.be/w8sXFKXg1b4

[DadDude]

Em, one thing you should understand about me is that when I learn that something is widely accepted as a "best practice" or part of the background knowledge of a profession--a.k.a. it is the dogma of the field--then I take it as a reason to seriously think about it, but not necessarily to switch my thinking uncritically. If I believed the leading dogmas of education, I would not have tried to teach my son to read at age 22 months. I would also be a big fan of the project method, which I am not. Indeed you'll find a lot of people on BrillKids Forums who are perfectly willing to flout the accepted wisdom. That's one of the reasons I like it!

You're not the first person to tell me that a child should not be memorizing, or doing so much academic work, at my son's age. Indeed, much of your advice is perfectly familiar to me, and I've already thought quite a bit about it, and my views are, let's just say, nuanced. In fact, navigating the issues involved in applying such advice to a specific case can be very complex. For example, our review sessions take about a half hour, all together, per day. The review is done separately from the books (it's done in front of my computer; it could be done on an iPad), in two relatively brief but high-intensity sessions. Why think that such review sessions would turn him off to reading? He isn't any less turned-off right now than he was before we started such reviews. He reads pretty enthusiastically for an hour (or more) a day every afternoon, and that's in addition to the reading that I do to him during mealtimes (I work from home) and at bedtime.

I'm homeschooling my son personally (his mother does a little, too), which by the way guarantees that a lot of his time is self-directed. His language abilities are very precocious because I've read and explained a huge amount to him, and continue to do so, though he is slowly becoming independent in his ability to study (he studies Rosetta Stone Latin by himself, does his hour of chapter book reading alone, and often does math and writing assignments by himself). In most subjects I am reading stuff to him that is written for students years ahead of him. When reading by himself he chooses stuff a few years ahead of his age level. When it comes to chapter books (fiction), his vocabulary and comprehension are at a point where he can understand and like things like Little House on the Prairie and various easy chapter book adaptations of classics (lately, Sherlock Holmes and now Oliver Twist).

Now with that background, let's consider the issue at hand: should a six-year-old be reading only for understanding, or also for memory as well? Well, we don't do memorization of things he reads to himself (or only rarely--but I expect that to change as he matures to the point where he can write well-formulated and pertinent questions). But when we read science, history, and geography, as well as other non-fiction, factual subjects, our focus is on understanding and building up background knowledge. Why not? The summaries we did for three months (described earlier in this thread), together with the Q&A spaced repetition review we've done for the last month, are definitely effortful. Sometimes--not most days, but occasionally--he resists and I have to insist. But he seems to understand and appreciate the benefits and wisdom of reviewing questions. It's not like it's an unpleasant activity, on balance, any more than any other part of his education.

My central argument is this. First, consider an obvious but today oft-overlooked point, namely that the purpose of reading nonfiction is first and foremost to acquaint oneself with facts. Next consider that, without any sort of practice, drilling, or other kind of review, one will forget the vast majority of the facts one encounters in one's reading. This entails that doing nonfiction reading without any review is literally pointless--it barely repays itself. (No wonder so many people look anti-intellectual in their attitude toward book-reading.) Suppose there were a way to retain memory of selected facts with a 95% chance of recall, and suppose doing this required a half-hour per day. This is much more efficient and much less arduous than the usual school methods of worksheets, passive review of everything, and cramming for exams. I happen to agree with you that those methods would be too much to require of most six-year-olds. But spaced repetition work for a half-hour per day is much more reasonable, and not really that much to ask, as our experience so far bears out. It also puts my mind at ease about the problem of forgetting what we read.

This argument assumes that "the purpose of reading nonfiction is first and foremost to acquaint oneself with facts," and your (Em's) point, that the purpose of reading at least in early years should be simply a focus on language, seemed to be contrary. But my contention is supported by research, and we might not be contradicting each other, besides. Specialized factual knowledge, what is sometimes called "background information," arguably count as language skills. You can't read advanced physics stuff, for example, without reading basic physics stuff first, and getting lots of vocabulary and basic facts under your belt; no amount of "generic" language skill enables a physics-ignorant student to read advanced physics. Hence some memory of facts actually counts as "verbal intelligence." (E.D. Hirsch develops something like this argument in Cultural Literacy with an impressive amount of research to back him up. More recently, Willingham explained the same thing in Why Don't Students Like School with more recent research.)

Em, you might not have intended to get into an argument, but since I learn a lot by arguing, you've got one!  

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