Swann Family = 10 Children with MA at age 16! Book Review & Discussion Thread

[Wolfwind]

The Robinson Curriculum does sound very interesting.  I do like that its poster children are all in science; I'm a History major myself, but I didn't like that all of the Swann kids went into the liberal arts; it made me question whether the ideas would work for a science or math buff.

My biggest problem with RC is that I love teaching!  I want to homeschool to teach my children.  Now, I completely believe that teaching yourself is a good thing ... BUT!

My second problem, as many of you mentioned, is the writing teaching, or lack thereof.  I think that I will supplement.  I've always been confident that I could teach writing without a boxed curriculum; I think I'll go for written narrations followed by progymnasmata-type exercises.  Maybe I'll get my teaching bug out in teaching writing, while letting them teach themselves math and classic literature.

So right now I'm thinking a CM/RC combination: self-taught math first thing every morning (not guaranteeing it will be Saxon, though), followed by reading great literature and writing based on what they read, teaching different styles of writing in a progym method.  And I want enough grammar to diagram sentences, just because.

[nee1]

It's interesting that Charlotte Mason echoes the same self-teaching concept as Robinson Curriculum. I quote from pages 229 -230 of CM volume 3 (the modern English Paraphrase). Under subsection ``Books and Oral Teaching'', it says:

``Once the right book has been found, the teacher needs to let the book take the lead, and be content to stay in the background. The book takes precedence over any lecture. The teacher's role is to get the students in the right attitude about the book with a word or two expressing his own interest in what's in the book, or his enjoyment of the author's style. The students only get knowledge when they dig for it themselves. Work paves the way for assimilation, which is the active mental process of converting information into real knowledge. The effort of working through the author's sequence of thought is more valuable to a student than any amount of oral lectures.

Do teachers understand the paralyzing, dulling effect that a deluge of talking has on the mind? Yes, an inspired speaker can waken a response so that his hearers listen with captivated attention, but not many of us can claim to be inspired, and we're sometimes aware of how difficult it is to hold our students' attention. We blame ourselves, but the real fault is isn't with us, it's with the method we're using. It's the diluted oral lesson or lecture used in place of a living, compelling book that's to blame. Oral lessons are sometimes needed to introduce, illustrate, amplify or sum up a book. But they should be few and far between. Children will have to walk through life on their own, finding their intellectual nourishment for themselves. We shouldn't start them off getting used to crutches.'' QUOTE ENDS.

Now the original Charlotte Mason words of the exact pages above (i.e., pages 229 -230  of CM volume 3)  are as follows:

``Books and Oral Teaching.–
Having found the right book, let the master give the book the lead and be content himself with a second place. The lecture must be subordinated to the book. The business of the teacher is to put his class in the right attitude towards their book by a word or two of his own interest in the matter contained, of his own delight in the manner of the author. But boys get knowledge only as they dig for it. Labour prepares the way for assimilation, that mental process which converts information into knowledge; and the effort of taking in the sequence of thought of his author is worth to the boy a great deal of oral teaching.

Do teachers always realise the paralysing and stupefying effect that a flood of talk has upon the mind? The inspired talk of an orator no doubt wakens a response and is listened to with tense attention; but few of us claim to be inspired, and we are sometimes aware of the difficulty of holding the attention of a class. We blame ourselves, whereas the blame lies in the instrument we employ––the more or less diluted oral lesson or lecture, in place of the living and arresting book. We cannot do without the oral lesson––to introduce, to illustrate, to amplify, to sum up. My stipulation is that oral lessons should be few and far between, and that the child who has to walk through life,––and has to find his intellectual life in books or go without,––shall not be first taught to go upon crutches.'' QUOTE ENDS.

And in CM volume 3, Charlotte Mason explains her educational manifesto ( on pages 214 of Volume 3). Again, the concept of self teaching is clearly there. I quote an excerpt of the manifesto in her original words as follows:

``An Educational Manifesto -"Studies serve for Delight, for Ornament, and for Ability."
Every child has a right of entry to several fields of knowledge.
Every normal child has an appetite for such knowledge.
This appetite or desire for knowledge is a sufficient stimulus for all school work, if the knowledge be fitly given.
There are four means of destroying the desire for knowledge:––
          (a) Too many oral lessons, which offer knowledge in a diluted form, and do not leave the child free to deal with it.
          (b) Lectures, for which the teacher collects, arranges, and illustrates matter from various sources; these often offer knowledge in too condensed and ready prepared a form.
          (c) Text-books compressed and recompressed from the big book of the big man.
          (d) The use of emulation and ambition as incentives to learning in place of the adequate desire for, and delight in, knowledge.............''

This is how the Modern English Paraphrase from Amblesideonline.org puts the above excerpt from the manifesto:

``An Educational Manifesto: ``Lessons should be enjoyable; they should enhance the individual and give him the ability he needs for life.''
Every child has a right to be exposed to several fields of knowledge.
Every normal child has a natural appetite for this kind of knowledge.
This appetite, or natural desire, is all a child needs to motivate him to do his lessons, if the knowledge is presented properly.
The desire to learn is destroyed in four ways:
     (1) Too much talking at the child, offering diluted knowledge without giving the child time and space to reflect and digest that knowledge.
     (2) Lectures that are assembled, arranged and illustrated from different sources by the teacher. These usually offer knowledge that's so condensed and well-prepared that the child doesn't need to think about it, and doesn't assimilate it.
     (3) Textbooks that are compressed and filtered and recompressed until they bear little of the original living ideas from the mind they started with.
     (4) The use of competition and desire for achievement as motives to do lessons, instead of the natural hunger and love for knowledge that are all a child needs to learn..........''


   

[nee1]

Charlotte Mason  says more on self education in Volume 6. I quote from pages 75-77, Volume 6 of CM series, (the modern english paraphrase):
 
``Teachers tend to belittle their high position and obstruct the process of education because they cling to two or three fallacies. (1) They regard children as inferior, and themselves as superior beings. Why else would they be given the position of authority as a teacher? If they only realized that children's minds are as potent, or even more so, than their own, they wouldn't see their mission as spoon-feeding their students, or predigesting it to make it tolerably understandable for their students.

(2) Another way we belittle children is when we're convinced that they can't understand a literary vocabulary. So we explain and paraphrase to our heart's content--but it doesn't do them any good. Educated mothers realize that their children can read and understand almost anything. They don't offer explanations unless they are asked to. All this time, we thought that the children of educated parents were bright merely because they inherited intelligence.

(3) Another misconception we have concerns attention. We think that we have to capture children's feeble attention with persuasion, dramatic presentation, pictures and visual models. But the fact is, a teacher whose success depends on his charismatic personality is merely an actor who belongs up on a stage. We now know that attention is not one 'faculty' of the brain and it's not a definable power of the mind. It's the ability to turn on that power and concentrate [it's not something the brain has, but something it does]. By attempting to capture a child's attention with gimmicks, we waste our time. The ability to focus the attention is already there in a child, as much as he needs. It's like a forceful river just waiting to obey the child's own authority to turn on. Yet it's capable of stubbornly resisting attempts to be coerced that are imposed from without. What we need to do is to recognize attention as one of the appetites. Then we'll feed it with the best we have in books and knowledge. But paying attention is something that children have to do on their own. We can't do it for them. It's not for us to be the fountain of all knowledge--we don't know enough, we don't speak well enough, we're too vague and random to cope with the capability of creatures who are thirsty for knowledge. Instead of pretending to be the source of their education, we must realize that books, the very best books, are the source, and we must put that resource into their hands, and read them for ourselves, too.

(4) One final fallacy that hinders our work as teachers is undervaluing knowledge. It's currently characteristic of the British to belittle knowledge. One well-known educationalist recently nailed up a thesis about what children need from education. The list included only two items: Children need to know a skill to earn a living, and children need to know how to behave as a proper citizen. The writer of the thesis apparently doesn't realize that the quality of a man's work is directly in proportion to how much of a complete person he is. The more broadened a person is, the better his work will be and the more dependable he will be. Yet we remove the humane influence of literature from common education, and it's that literature which results in efficiency. One school with 9,000 adolescent students has its students attend in batches of a few hundred at a time so that they can rotate and learn various skills and crafts. But in three years in this school, students don't spend even one hour learning any kind of humane knowledge. The reading and thinking that's left out is the very thing that should be making these students better people and better citizens!

But, to get back to the topic of attention, it's more than a convenient, almost miraculous way of covering the material and getting the students to learn a surprising amount of knowledge, and to retain it. All of this is very good, but employing attention is even more than that. It's a foundational principle that's vital to education. In focusing his attention, the child takes on responsibility for himself. He uses the authority within himself in its highest function: as a self-commanding, self-compelling force. It's delightful to find that we can use an ability that we have within us, even if that ability is only being able to toss and catch a ball in a cup a hundred times as Jane Austen did to amuse her nieces and nephews. To make yourself pay attention, and make yourself know--this is a remarkable power to have! And children feel even more delight in being able to do this because they have the double satisfaction of enjoying the knowledge they gain from lessons, which satisfies their inborn curiosity.

Here's a note that just arrived as I was writing this. It's from the mother of an eleven year old girl who's just spent a couple of days visiting London:

'My mother took her to Westminster Abbey one afternoon. I was tucking her in and she told me all the things she had noticed there that she'd been learning from her lessons about architecture that term. She loves architecture. She also said she was anxious to see the British Museum. She wants to see the things there that she heard about in her term's lessons [probably from Frances Epp's book about The British Museum]. So, the next morning, we went there. We spent lots of time in the Parthenon Room, studying the things there in great detail. She was such an interesting companion, and she taught me so much! We also went to St. Paul's Cathedral and Madame Tussaud's, where she was excited about seeing so many people from history. The modern people didn't interest her as much, except for Jack Cornwell and Nurse Cavell.'

Notice that this girl is educating herself. Her companions merely take her to places where she can see the things she knows about, and she tells about the things she's read. That's such a different approach from pouring information down the throats of less lucky children who are taken to these kinds of places.'' QUOTE ENDS.


Now, CM's original renderings of the above quote is more potent and convincing than the modern english paraphrase. Check out her original renderings of the above pages (pages 75-77) at the ambleside website - http://www.amblesideonline.org/CM/vol6complete.html.

[Mandabplus3]

Well I am convinced this is the way to teach/learn. We are halfway through the sandman books with one of my kids. I can hear the difference in her reading. Her fluency is improving and so is her reading level and overall comprehension.  She is commenting on the unusual sentence structures ( they start lots of sentences with And )  she also has started to use more interesting adjectives in her everyday speech. She has learnt many new concepts ( an ear of corn she didn't know!!!!)
We will definitely continue through the book lists

[nee1]

Well I am convinced this is the way to teach/learn. We are halfway through the sandman books with one of my kids. I can hear the difference in her reading. Her fluency is improving and so is her reading level and overall comprehension.  She is commenting on the unusual sentence structures ( they start lots of sentences with And )  she also has started to use more interesting adjectives in her everyday speech. She has learnt many new concepts ( an ear of corn she didn't know!!!!)
We will definitely continue through the book lists

Mandab,

How did you approach the books with her to improve her fluency and comprehension? Please share details. And can you paste a link to the Sandman books? Thank you.

[msocorro]

question:
if you had 3 kids, ages 4, 2.5,and 1, what would be the best way to get them ready for RC?
I think that with a bit of table work the oldest could be reading at a level needed to start the math program...
then with the 2.5 what to do? sould I keep the LR going? even´t if I havent seen any resuts at all? or sould I start phonics? she has started with readding eggs and is quite good at it... but then the RC does tell you to remove any computer basted programs till the age of 16... wich I think is a very good idea, since computers are really apilling to children, much more than books could be...
Then with my 1 year old... he justs loves!!! LM, and like (not loves) LR, what to do? so I stop? I don´t thin that would be good for him, but then just having him on the computer and non of the other seems a bit unjust... so.. flashcards? they just don´t go as fast...

A nother question, I´m not sure if there is anyother in my situation, I would love to adapt the RC to the Spanish one, spanish history, aspanish riding novels, etc... any recomendations?

thanks a lot

[Mandabplus3]

Nee1 comprehension is improved by discussing what they read. So if the book is all about things she has no experience with we discuss at the end of each page. Some times I am doing all the talking but I find as the books progress she does more and more of the talking or we get further along ( a whole chapter) without needing to stop and talk about what we are reading. We talk about direct things like " what is a drag?" As well as more indirect things " why do you think they didn't get water from the tap?" And feelings " what would it feel like to have that happen to you" this covers comprehension on multiple levels.
Because I am selecting books to challenge my already confident readers we need to do more discussion than I would if they were reading books at or just above their reading levels. If the book is a hard slog don't give up on it just buddy read. Have them do a page talk about it then you read a page and they can ask you a question if they want to.
Fluency improves with practice. Now in this case I noticed an improvement from the first page of one word at a time stop start to currently reading a sentence at a time. She was stop start at the beginning because the language is very different and the words are unpredictable ( they do not match what we hear and say at all!) so she has to pay ore attention to each word. Less guessing.  if she reads a passage poorly  either her Or I will re read that section again fluently. I don't just let it slide if the reading is stilted.
At the beginning of the book she was re reading something from each page now we get through a chapter a night without re reading anything at all. She also has improved enough that she can start her reading alone while Jaykob reads to me and I can join her once he is done and finish the chapter together.
I was to be honest quite stumped as to why she wasn't improving her reading abilities. She had been on the same level for a few months. It seems she just needed to be given something challenging and forced to stick it out. That is actually what I did when my oldest got stuck too but she was much further along when she platowed so I hadn't considered it as an option.
The Sandman books are a series of stories that are in the children's classics folder I am pretty sure you already have. If not I shall add them to drop box for you. They are public domain. I got them from Gutenberg. The writing is simple. The stories are simply about life in the past. It's not a perfect book by far but it's seems to be good for improving accuracy at the least. We are currently reading the farm stories.
Msocorro- my ideas...I would continue with LR and add in systematic phonics training and introduce blending too. I would do this for your oldest two. You need to get them reading independently to use the RC effectively long term. You can use whatever program you like to teach phonics or wing it I think if you focus on phonics really thoughly for 6-12 weeks you will have them ready to get started on the easier books in the set. Then I would gradually wean myself out of their reading time. Do this by buddy reading, then having them read for the first 5 minutes then you listen to them read, then  just increase the independent reading time until you hit how long you want them to read for. You may have to increase it gradually for such young starters. At this point I should me toon that I still like to listen to my kids read if they are working on books above their level. This way I can correct mispronunciations and help with difficult words and ideas. You will find kids need more help with the beginning of a book than the end of it.
Math should be simple enough to get to independent point. Once they find math facts easy and have them memorised they usually enjoy working through math books.

[nee1]

Thanks for the detailed explanation, Mandab. I am very grateful. And yes, I found I had the Sandman books. They are also in the public domain and were authored by William Hopkins in 1902. Thank you!

And aren't these vintage books lovely? I've been reading aloud `The Life of George Washington’ and `Bobbsey Twins at School’ (the 4th and 10th books on the RC list) to my kids and I was so impressed by the high level vocabulary in the books (though they were probably just 2nd grade books in those days).  Plus you find good moral values in the books - you read about children who are respectful to parents. Such great vocabulary is seldom found in contemporary children's books ; the ``big words'' have all been weeded out  in modern day books to fit ``grade levels ‘’and age groupings.

I read this interesting blog article of how contemporary authors are asked by editors to take out ``big words'' from the children's books they write - http://thecommonroomblog.com/2007/06/sesquipedalians-and-children.html.

An excerpt from the above article says:
``In Sixpence in her Shoe, Mrs. Mcginley tells of an adventure a childrens’ author she knows had at her publishers. She spotted a copy editor with a syllabus in one hand and a manuscript he was hastily revising for a new children’s book in the other. The lady author asked, “Don’t tell me there’s a censorship problem in juveniles?” The editor said certainly there was:

“We have to be very careful. Here is a book intended for children from six to nine. And this paper contains all the words that six-to-nine-year-olds are supposed to be able to understand. I have to take out all the big words not on the list and put in little ones.'' '' QUOTE ENDS.

Shocking but true. No wonder we have a plethora of dumbed down children's books these days. With good quality vintage books, you are at least sure your kid will be exposed to high level vocabulary. I now understand why Authur Robinson chose mostly vintage books to educate his kids.

Thanks again, Mandab. I’m very grateful for the explanation.

[Mandabplus3]

Oh I am soooooo over the language in most of today's stories. It isnt just dumbed down, it is often just plain rude too! To make it even worse the school my kids attend seems to actively select the simpler books for use in the classrooms. The hardest book I have seen in the grade 3 room is Geronimo Stilton! How sad. That is why last year I went to see the teacher and asked that Natalya be excused completely from school reading level books. I let them know she wasn't learning anything from a novel she could speed read in less than 30 seconds and still have full comprehension of. Due to her testing being inconclusive ( ie they could test high enough to place her) they were fine with me doing our own reading program. This is now a new year and I am aiming to have the same conversation with her new teacher this week. This way she will have time to read through the classics, which fortunately she loves. She also loves Non fiction, which is what she usually chooses if she is stuck reading school classroom books.
I am not surprised that they deliberately dumb down the book language. They want every kid at that age to read it for pleasure. Unlike us who are looking to challenge and extend our children in those age brackets.

What are your thoughts on the number of books in the RC collection. I am not sure there are enough on the list to keep kids reading for 2 hours a day for all those years. I haven't looked at them all so they could be massive  but I think they will need heavy supplementing. Is there any info on that? I mean I won't run out of books any time soon  but I am curious as to whether that is all they read or if they read others as well and these are just the core pick of the bunch. Or the essentials list. I need to sort my books by level so they are more useful and I can be sure we read the best books at the right time.
I like the look of the bobbsy twins. We shall read that one very soon. Maybe I should read aloud all the books on the list that my kids are unlikely to self read or that they are already past in reading level.....

So I wanted to add a bit more about the math ( ok I got busted on here when I was supposed to be doing the vacuuming  ) to get to Saxon 5/4 independently I am thinking what you need is a little bit of age. Yes sure a 4 year old with their math facts mastered could complete Saxon 5/4 that doesn't mean that they actually will. I think kids starting Saxon early may need mum sitting close by. After about age 6 I reckon they can do it independantly. Some kids at age 5 but really not that many. I say this knowing that you all will expect a full lesson from them each and every day ( and why not? I do  ) and a full lesson can take a long time some days. To build up to an independant math session I suggest working together for mental math and that days new concepts lesson and then encouraging your child to complete the daily practice ( which is the review of old information at a higher level bit) set on their own. It's usually about 27 questions.
Prior to starting Saxon math 5/4 I would recommend you spend LOTS of time playing math facts games, using apps, flashing math facts cards, doing math drills, learning times tables intimately, and asking your children math based problems throughout the day to develop a thinking brain. Questions like how many more apples will we need to feed everyone? Or how many pieces should I cut this pizza into? Then include time, capacity, Calendar, simple measurement, shapes, and fractions into your everyday learning. Basically they need a good overall introduction to math activities as well as knowing their math facts. So those Marshmallow math books and kitchen table math are useful as is checking you covered everything on the preschool and kindergarten lists at IXL. Maybe even grade 1...
 I have to say its more the quality of thinking your child has than the level of their math that will determine if they are ready for Saxon 5/4. My kids don't know there math facts of by heart yet but they manage no problem. It would be ridiculously quicker if they knew then so that is added to this years goals. Much to my delight memorising math facts has suddenly appeared in the grade 2 curriculum for homework ( glad I have a photocopier!  )
I do think if they find math easy they will sit no problem to complete the sections each day. The difficult bit is usually getting them to correct their mistakes. I always say to my kids if you don't make any mistakes you won't have any to fix so think carefully while you work 

[Wolfwind]

Thanks for the CM quotes, nee1.  I'm working my way through her work, but I'm using her original words and it takes me a while - I can't read it with half of my attention while doing household tasks.  I guess it's not so much teaching that I miss in pure RC, but interaction with my kids about what they're doing.  After all, RC was developed by a single dad who needed to work while the kids were doing school, so they had to do things completely on their own.  I don't want that.  But reading blogs, most people do it more like Mandab, and that is something I could do.  There's still a lot of parental involvement at first, but it phases out over time.

Mandab, I agree: RC doesn't have nearly enough material.  I think I'll supplement with the Ambleside Online list, a Charlotte Mason curriculum of great books.  They use classics as well.  http://amblesideonline.org/

I've been thinking about it a lot over the past few days, and I think Mandab's description is much more like what I'll be doing, using narration to assure comprehension of these challenging books.  As they get older, they'll be able to do more and more on their own, but at the beginning, I expect it will be buddy reading, then individual readings with narration every page, then narration every chapter, then (written) narration after each book.  A blog suggested doing narration on the math as well: read the lesson, then tell Mom what you learned.  If you don't seem to understand, read it again; otherwise, go on to the practice problems.

I also thikn we'll throw in some memory work, some sort of history spine, and a CM Book of Centuries, in which anything historical gets some notes made, to try and have a better sense of timelines through history.  I might expand the history part even more, to give a sense of cause and effect, since I did major in history and love it.

And I've come up with a method for teaching writing that I like!  It's from www.design-your-homeschool.com/how-to-teach-writing.html, and it works up to being self-taught from classic literature, though I'll be heavily involved in the early years.  There are two components.  For the early years (after they've mastered copywork), I'll use Classical Re-Writing.  This is the method Ben Franklin used to teach himself to write.  You choose a well-written passage and summarize each sentence in three or four words.  Then put those aside for a while.  Come back to them and try to rewrite the passage from your prompts.  Compare with the original.  Another thing Franklin used, not on the website, was to write each sentence of the passage and then cut them up and shuffle them, and try to put them in the correct order.

Actually, before that I'll teach the six traits of good writing.  Then I'll explain one type of passage (descriptive, anecdotal, letter, persuasive, etc) and we'll talk about how we can recognize a good example of that type.  Then we'll choose a passage together for the Classical Re-Write.  We'll either only do this a few times a week or have more than one going at a time so that they have time to forget in between sessions.

When they're more advanced, we'll move on to Modeling.  Actually, first will be brainstorming things to write about. Then we'll outline a passage of the type we're working on.  Then try to write a passage in the same style, but with her own ideas.  So if we were working on letters, we'd pick a letter out of the text of a novel.  Then we'd outline it.  Then we'd write a letter about our own life, but in the same style as the model.

My goal with all of this is that by the time they start college-level science, at 12-14 (I figure EL can shave at least 2 years off RC's ideas), I will also print off some scholarly journal articles on literature and history they've studied, hand it to them, and say, "Here.  Teach yourself to write like this."  If they can do that before they "graduate," college will be easy.

So my overall plan looks like this: Math first (I'm really leaning toward Life of Fred, with additional practice problems printed off the web, instead of Saxon, but I don't know), starting with narrating the lesson to Mom before starting the problems but phasing that out over time, and of course reworking any problem they get wrong.  Then we'll take a break and do Classical memory work, in some way that gets us up and moving (singing, games, etc).  Then reading time from RC and Ambleside, with frequent oral narrations phasing to written narration at the end of each book, and Book of the Centuries notes.  Then a few minutes of grammar (I take CM's "no grammar before 10" rule as only applying to non-EL kids).  Learn a few parts of speech and then diagram a sentence with those parts at the whiteboard with Mom, getting more complex as time goes on.  After a little bit, it will just be diagramming a complex sentence they read or wrote recently.  I might throw in reading aloud some sort of history spine to all the kids for a couple of minutes next.  Then writing, which will start with copywork and dictation.  Once writing is physically easy, studying types of writing and how to judge whether it's good, and Classical Re-Writing.  Later, brainstorming, outlining, and Modeling.  Oh, I also mean to introduce editing and rubrics with Modeling and let them grade themselves a week or two after finishing a piece of writing.

One advanced book from the AO list will be read aloud as a family as a bedtime story, I think.  And I plan to start as early as necessary to get done with all the schooling by lunch and have afternoons free.  Art and music practice might be required at a certain rate in the afternoons, but other than that, it will be free choice.  I hope we'll spend lots of that time outside.

[PokerDad]

Is there a way to bookmark a thread or post? Wow, there are some seriously good posts in ITT - I guess I'm just lucky to have prompted two awesome discussions from starting a book review & discussion.

Manda,
I'm currently reading "the feel good curriculum" and just finished "the dumbest generation," and all I can say is that now things around me are starting to make so much more sense (why things are the way they are and why they're so messed up). Not sure if Australia would mirror the US, but based on what you're saying, it would appear so. The more I read and reflect on the education system, the more I see it for what it is.... the biggest scam in our society (and it was never intended to be a scam, it just became that). It's putting me in a weird place as a father who's wife was brainwashed by this system (but that's a different topic all together).

And a special appreciation to posting the Franklin method. OMG - so much wisdom there; I can't wait for Cub to grow up 

[Mandabplus3]

 franklin method? what did I miss?

Wolfwind thankyou so much for that link! It is exactly what I needed. I actually have read this all on the forum before (perhaps from Nee1?) but the level of conversation was well above my beginners understanding  this link gives a great over view and introduction and is probably enough to just hit the ground running. very helpful karma to you 
the good news is that going through the list of teaching writing
Tracing letters and Teaching the correct letter formations. (learning handwriting books)
Copying words. (spelling lists)
Copying sentences – copying punctuation. (grade 1 copy from the whiteboard)
Writing from Dictation. (every friday all grades do dictation)
Copying larger selections. ( all schools do this! dont you remember writing large chunks from the board?)
Writing from Dictation of large selections. (dictation gets longer as the grades go up)
Copying own narrations. (journel entries, retells,plays, some show and tell)
Writing own narrations. (journal entries, story writing common in grades 1-3)
Teach Writing with Style. (this is interpreted by teaching nouns verbs, prepositions etc)(
Teach Writing Forms. (grade 2 pursuasive writing, letter witing, reading non fiction to extract facts, wesite summary....)

the parts in brakets is the evidence I have seen my childrens school cover.

my children appear to be getting a fairly decent writing education at school.  obviously not enough of one but still they are covering 1-8 pretty well. which leaves me with only 9 and 10. to extend on phew!   they were the two bits I thought they were missing from their writing educataion so apparently I am still on the ball  i have assumed that the school will never cover 9 and 10 properly (teaching writing with style and teach writing forms) but I must admit they have already had a crack at it in grade 3. OK it was an introduction by our standards but i dont think the introduction will get much more depth over the years unfortunatley. More like just more practice at that light level. They do learn styles of writing (narative, pursuasive...etc) but not writing to a style set by an author. So they will be unlikely to ever learn to write in the style of the classics stories without help at home. their writing is likely to remain basic without my intervention.
Progymnasmata excersizes seem to be the answer for me but i wonder how many of htese forms are still valid these days ? Fable, Narrative, Chreia, Maxim, Refutation, Confirmation, Common Topic, Enconium, Invective, Comparison, Characterization, Description, Thesis and Law. Do my kids really need to learn to write in a fable style? probably I will need to learn what all the rest mean before I teach them!  I think I may teach these and add in a modern bent and delete some ancient fluff.   I shall definately check out classical composition, see if that curriculum will take the work out of it for me 
EDIT i just checked out the curriculum and found this page links the old world words enconian etc with our current terminology. useful for me and perhaps others http://classicalcomposition.com/books/

I believe memory work could be well covered during dictation and copying work. it could also be used for summary at times too. in fact I may start having my children copy out their bible verses a couple of time a week (probably need to work on that one it was the lowest mark on last years repost cards  )

I am not convinced you need to do naration on math. perhaps your choice of curriculum may mean you do need to but if using Saxon it really is a sit em down and walk away type thing. If they dont understand it is quickly apparent as they get the answers wrong! then you could sit down and discuss if you wanted too. I just send my kids back to figure it out. every now and then they need some help so I just keep asking questions leading them in the right direction until they figure it out. I suppose if you want to narate math go ahead, personally i couldnt imagine anything more boring  Saxon does have a mental componant at the begining of each lesson you will need to be involved in. It is also possible that if you start Saxon younger than grade 2 your kids might need the support of narating back to you. as they age you can back out if you like. I dont have time to narate for three kids in math and english anyway so I am not about to try it 

I think Australia isnt quite as diluted as the US yet. but we do seem to be heading down that path too quickly. lack of parental education is a problem but also lack of teachers education in different methods also. My degree covered Montossori and Vygotsky but didnt even mention Classical education. a classical education school was an option for my children but I ruled it out very quickly thinking Latin had no real use and the methods were too archaic. Havnt yet decided if I regret that choice  I am keen to spend a couple of days in that school sometime though!

[Jenene]

Just a quick answer to Mandabplus3's question a few comments back re not enough books.  I know I have read somewhere that the RC list is considered a 'spine' of sorts and that by using the list as a guide you can expand, replace etc.. As needed.  An eg for our age group is that if your children enjoy the Bobbsey Twins book that is recommended than provide all the Bobbsey Twins books for them to read.  Or more books by the same author, or from the same period in history etc...  It is definitely not expected that these books are all your child will read.  Though if it is they will definitely still be much better read than most of their peers totally agree with the discussion of watering down today's vocabulary and values.

We start Saxon 6/5 this coming week....  I'm not sure where to start.  I have read that the first (approx) 30 lessons are review as they were designed for American children returning from 3 months summer holiday who need to review.  I need to look through the lessons but am thinking of doing lessons 5, 10, 15 etc until we get to new material. Any ideas? 

[Mandabplus3]

Thanks for that. Yes they would be better read than their peers. So we will definitely supplement, probably heavily for the younger 2. It's not like we have a shortage of books available! 
Yes it's the first 20 to 40 lessons that are review lessons in Saxon math. It averages at 30 lessons apparently. I haven't yet looked but was planning to compare topics until I got past a review topic. But thinking now I don't think it matters. Start at lesson 30 and if your child gets something wrong, or doesn't understand one of the questions in the daily practice then you will know you missed something important. Since the lesson number that it comes from are printed in tiny print next to it you will know where to go back to to start the year off. ( gee I hope that makes sense!) that way you don't waste time doing review you really don't need.
Hey I was just looking this up for you and realised I have purchased ( inadvertently) a teachers edition of 7/6. It has all the answers in red right next to the questions!  I will have to photocopy the entire book to have my kids do the questions but I actually have the answers to one of the books now!  looking through it it isn't all that obvious which is review and which is new. I think this could take a while of cross referencing to figure out. 

[Jenene]

So after sitting down and looking at the table of contents of Saxon 6/5 it seems that it is the first 40 lessons that are review.  What I have ended up deciding to do is take the first 2 weeks to go through those lessons.  Each day we will quickly read through the lesson and answer a few of the practice questions.  This will be done in groups of 5 lessons so lessons 1 - 5 today, 6 - 10 tomorrow etc...  I also have the test booklet so he will then do the appropriate test for each group of lessons ( Saxon tests in groups of 5 lessons) that day.  It is only 20 questions so very doable.  This will give us 2 days at the end of the fortnight to spend some time on anything that he may need to before moving on to lesson 41 where we will go back to 1 lesson per day. 

Just thought I would write that down our plan for anyone in a similar position.  If all the books follow this pattern it would mean that there are only 80 lessons per book and at one lesson per day 5 days per week it would be possible to get through 3 books per year.

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