Are we social engineers?

[FomerlyMrsObedih_Now_BatmansMama]

Just rewatched this UK documentary looking through EL eyes -

http://www.channel4.com/programmes/too-poor-for-posh-school/4od

It's about parents and their children working to gain a scholarship into one of the most elite and prestigous schools in the UK. I just found it interesting that Peter Beckwith, the sponsor of the scholarship (who also benefited from a scholarship to the school) said he saw himself as a social engineer. He said the scholarship gave children from poor backgrounds the opportunity to 'enter a new world' and that in order to do so they would need to have certain characteristics including being 'jealous'. He also stated that after this transformation they would be able to go into the world (or back into their own communities I am guessing) and do some good.

I mean I personally found the tone very patronising but wanted to know from you guys how you felt about this idea of whether EL might make your kids so gifted they are social engineered into a completely different world from the one you're in now. In the UK at least there can be very clear differences in social strata. Accents, style of dress, hair do, knowledge, where you socialize can be used to (narrow-mindedly some might argue) ascertain whether a person is from your world or not.

I want my son to be fluid, to be able to fit in anywhere with anyone, but I so do not want him to turn into an insecure or obnoxious git who thinks he's too good for the common man. I don't want an education that turns him into a snob. This is a large part of why I wish to homeschool. But if it weren't possible in the secondary years, I would probably go the private/scholarship root, but have concerns about this idea of social engineering.

Thoughts??

[nee1]

Thanks for sharing, MrsObedih. Did anyone else feel the extreme pressure put on some of the kids by their parents? I felt it so tangibly in some of the interactions, especially that little boy Numhan. I somehow felt his dad was pushing too hard. Granted, getting into Oxford is a great thing, but for heaven's sake, let it be the boy's dream too. I felt it was more of his dad's dream than his, and that made me very uncomfortable. The boy even blurted it out when asked during the interview why he wanted to go to Harrow. He said ``It’s one of the top schools and my parents want me to go to Oxford, and they think Harrow might lead me to Oxford’’.  In the answer to the question on bravery, he said ``My dad wants me to go to Harrow School, and that’s coming from his heart’’. There is no indication in those answers that the boy wants the dream for himself.  He may want the dream for himself, but he did not say it; he kept referring to his dad in his responses.

Education is the gateway out of hardship, and the dad thinks that by getting a good education, his son's life may not be so hard. I agree completely. But can a good education be gotten only by going to a particular high school, or a particular university? NO! Homeschooling parents are getting the most astonishing results, yet without the extreme competitiveness and pushiness.  And why did I feel uncomfortable with the extreme pushiness? Because I remember Sofiah Yusef, who the media say she was pushed, and pushed, and pushed. Yes, she got into Oxford (like her dad wanted), but she ran away from Oxford prior to one of her exams, got into prostitution, and so on. Reading stories like that of Sofiah and Tiger Mom (Amy Chua)'s second daughter makes me wary of extreme pushing, trying to live life through one’s kid, and trying to outdo the other person, etc. There is more to life than getting into Oxford or Harrow or Eton.

Maybe others might think differently and I'll be very happy to hear other parents’ thoughts. I'm all for education, education, and education; learning, learning, and learning; but I also think that motives matter a lot. One has to do it for the right reasons; otherwise one may end up ruining a child's life. Thanks for sharing again, MrsObedih. Stuff like this give me lots of things to reflect on...

 I'll be very happy to hear what other Brillkids parents think.

[PokerDad]

I wasn't able to watch the video. They wouldn't let me. I tried to watch it through an anonymizer but that didn't work either. I guess you UK folk will have to discuss amongst yourselves.

As to the topic question, are we social engineers. To some extent, yes. However, I don't view it as a macro situation. I view it as an individual one. I need to equip my child as best as I can.

Education is quite pivotal to smart decision making and highly correlated with standard of living. Additionally, the current stratification of the US populace is creating two sects. Though I'm doing quite well in some measures, we're still part of the plebes. I happen to view "The Dumbest Generation" (title of a book) as sliding into the morass quickly. I would like Cub to not be forced into the vast plebeian ocean but to have an opportunity to enjoy the higher strata if desired. This means potentially enjoying grandchildren that are a product of current homogamy happening in the higher strata, among other benefits. Going to a school such as Harrow is a start to joining ranks & making in roads into that culture (it's the culture more than anything, but the connections alone are invaluable). Here in the US, I can say with certainty that some subcultures are also sub par and it's not even close.

I say all that to mention it will likely be a delicate balance between valuing people as people while also recognizing that not all people live their lives equally; nor should we value how everyone lives in an equal manner because some people get more out of this life than others. There's a lot of perspective I hope to pass on... but if my ramblings are evident of anything, it's likely that I need quite a bit more reflection myself. It's not that I want to look down on anyone, but I sure do. I'm not sure how I feel about that.

For further information, I recommend the book "Coming Apart" which discusses the homogenization of my particular subculture in the USA into a far less effective one... with a tiny percentage of it joining the higher ranks where the two nary meet.

[MummyRoo]

I remember watching that documentary a while ago and distinctly feeling that the kids were under too much pressure and specifically thinking that I would never want to put my son through that!

A friend of my sister went to Eton and although he came out mostly down-to-earth (proving it is possible to avoid becoming a snob in that environment, if very rare) and with fantastic connections - he even got an interview with someone very famous (I forget who) simply because they had both gone to Eton, if 30 years apart!

I suppose, if you have a child with ambitions of entering politics then it might be the right route, but really I can't help thinking that the peer pressure for scholarship kids trying to overcome the social differences with the rest of their class must be immense. Personally, I will do everything I can to homeschool!

[TeachingMyToddlers]

I can't watch the video either. Maybe some kind soul can capture it and save it to a private link on youtube. 

Anyway, I want a better life for my kids. If that means helping prepare them for a boarding school and then Ivy League down the road, then I need to do what I can NOW to keep those options open, it impacts all of those decisions down the road. Waiting until they are in high school is too late. If I prepare them to the best of my ability now, when they reach that fork in the road they can choose what direction they want to go. But better they have the option open should they want to choose it.

What kind of sports they play, what kind of extracurricular lessons they engage in, their grades from very early on, any afterschooling we do.... It all affects their future and what doors will be open for them. And if those choices aren't available anyway despite my efforts, well, I will know I did the best I could. Reach for the moon, land on a star, you know?

[PokerDad]

Good words TmT. I think I can agree with all of that.

I was thinking there was a portion of the original question that I had missed that had me thinking. The OP seemed to imply that kids go to some elite school, gain some special skill, and then bring that skill back to the common folk (at least that's the way I read it), hence social engineering. I think this is hogwash on so many levels.

If someone ascends up the social rank, it's actually foolish to come back down in an attempt to act as savior (and that's where perhaps someone could view this idea as condescending). Furthermore, even if someone wanted to, my earlier post ought to show my extreme skepticism that anything will slow down the tsunami of stupidity rolling out all across the world (but especially here in the USA where I can see it for myself).

EL, homeschooling, etc are means to an end of their own really. I DO think participating on this forum is a bit social engineering in that over a great length of time coupled with results, there can and likely WILL be a shift in public thinking - and to that extent, we are all participating in social engineering, it's just barely noticeable at this point to the larger world.

[FomerlyMrsObedih_Now_BatmansMama]

As usual responses that give me alot to think about. Tried to see if I could download it to upload on Youtube with no luck, will have to do a bit more digging, there might be an indirect way of getting it to work.

I do want a better (read more stable and more options) life for my son and I guess it would be naive not to acknowledge that this means him having access to people from wealthier backgrounds than I or my husband grew up in. I just don't want him to become a narrow-minded snob - but I guess that it down to my parenting as much as his educational environment. At this present time, I am thinking of homeschooling through the primary years (until 11/12 years of age) - maximizing on our EL gains and accelerating his education as much as I can (while developing individual skills and talent - this is really why I think HS would be good for these years - I can spend necessary amount of time on this without academics dropping behind), and then letting Douglas choose how he wants to complete the rest of his education (i.e. in private, boarding or homeschool), being at that age he should be able to give valuable input as to the best path and environment  to achieve his life goals as he perceives them.

Pokerdad, I'm quite intrigued as to why you feel its not usual for people to want to use their skills/resources to benefit those in their indigenous communities. Being African I suppose I know of quite a few people who leave excellent careers abroad to start social enterprises, schools, health initiatives etc back home. Granted its not always for purely altruistic reasons, I get that we all have needs that need to be met too. I guess I had hoped that if EL could be the source of a bit of social engineering, it might look like educated, whole hearted, extremely talented individuals putting the world to rights one community at a time If for no other reason, because the challenge is big enough to be really fun!

If I'm honest when I'm really busting my gut with EL (as I feel I am currently, trying to get a balance of finances and time management to provide Douglas with more structured Pre-K and Kindergarten homeschool experience) I think about him growing up to give all that back somehow. It kindda keeps me going, cos I feel like in parenting him so thoroughly I am doing my civic (not to mention spiritual) duty.


In case anyone doubted after some of the conversations we've had on this forum, maths is the single most consistent predictor of later academic achievement, according to recent research (Jan 2011) by Foundation for Child Development. It was found to have more impact in later years than antisocial behaviour and early reading (whether early readers or late readers):
http://fcd-us.org/sites/default/files/Brief%20on%20Academic%20Skills%20and%20School%20Readiness%20011311.pdf

Just as in the school-achievement analyses, math achievement emerged as the single most
powerful predictor of educational attainment. Children persistently scoring in the bottom end of
the math distribution were 13 percentage points less likely to graduate from high school and 29
percentage points less likely to attend college.  But while school-entry reports of anti-social
behavior problems were not predictive of later school achievement, Table 2 shows that persistent
behavior problems were indeed correlated with lower attainment. Surprisingly, persistent early
reading problems were not predictive, nor were persistent attention problems.

This is why EL is so important to understand properly. It's much more than helping your child read early. So if anyone needs encouragement on their EL journey, pls know that what you are doing is the best insurance against any negative influence derailing a child's chances of leading a successful life.

[nee1]

In case anyone doubted after some of the conversations we've had on this forum, maths is the single most consistent predictor of later academic achievement, according to recent research (Jan 2011) by Foundation for Child Development. It was found to have more impact in later years than antisocial behaviour and early reading (whether early readers or late readers):
http://fcd-us.org/sites/default/files/Brief%20on%20Academic%20Skills%20and%20School%20Readiness%20011311.pdf

This is why EL is so important to understand properly. It's much more than helping your child read early. So if anyone needs encouragement on their EL journey, pls know that what you are doing is the best insurance against any negative influence derailing a child's chances of leading a successful life.

Thanks for that mention of math, MrsObedih. It struck me in the documentary you posted that math was one of the core subjects those kids had to test very well in to be considered for admission to Harrow.

And as I read through Arthur Robinson's website and materials (http://www.robinsoncurriculum.com/), he keeps mentioning math, math, and math. He calls math the foundation of science. In fact, his curriculum requires that a child complete calculus before tackling formal science (physics in this case). He says Newton needed math  to solve physics problems, why then do we think we can do otherwise? He says schools teach ``pretend science' when kids learn science without a math foundation. See the articles here - http://www.robinsoncurriculum.com/view/rc/s31p1015.htm  and http://www.robinsoncurriculum.com/view/rc/s31p997.htm

document.getElementById('recent_loading').style.display = 'none';document.getElementById('recent_page_box').style.display = '';

Page: 1/4  

Loading...

Members

• Total Members: 214772
• Latest: addisonjones

Stats

• Total Posts: 110526
• Total Topics: 19136
• Online Today: 236
• Online Ever: 826
• (January 22, 2020, 12:09:49 AM)

Users Online

• Users: 0
• Guests: 144
• Total: 144