We Can Do by Moshe Kai with guest Robert Levy discussing Saxon Math.

[Robert Levy]

As far as keeping track of the Saxon work, I had David do the work on loose leaf paper and then put it into a binder when he finished a section.  That seemed to work well.  With more than one kid, then obviously more than one binder.

I agree that once a kid is proficient on math facts Saxon will pick up from there, with Saxon 54.  As others said, Saxon covers a lot more than just number manipulation, it basically covers everything.  I think that I said earlier on this thread that, after David had been through a few books, I went to a bookstore and looked at a study guide for one of our state tests (Texas).  I was blown away by it, because it looked like John Saxon had simply copied his book - I couldn't find one question in that guide that was missed by Saxon.  And keep in mind that I had been desperately searching for something that could actually teach David math, and I looked at a lot of stuff before I stumbled into Saxon.  Just about everything talked about how much fun their particular approach was.  That sent my defenses because I know that learning math is not fun - or at least fun in the way they conveyed.  It is tedious and tiring.  About the only way it can be "fun" is the joy when the kid accomplishes something...but that still isn't fun until it's over - so still not fun while they're learning.

The saddest thing for this country was how the Big Education tore down Saxon prevented it from taking over in math - they had to know what was possible, which is why that bunch had to do what they did.

As far as Glenn Beck - I don't follow him, but on stuff I've heard him talk about, I have yet to see where he's been wrong on just about anything.  The reason that I don't follow him is that it's too depressing - depressing that he's almost always right, and depressing that he's been marginalized at the same time.

[linzy]

nee,
I think it is important for them to have a solid grasp of their math facts (i.e. they can calculate the right answer within a few seconds) even if they are not completely memorized. The program we use for the math facts is called sterling math facts. It costs like $10.

You can chose individual facts to work on, or ranges, or all of one type of equation or all equations or solve for an addend/multiplier (like an algebra problem). You can also chose the amount of time they have to answer each problem and the number of problems. It keeps track of missed problems so you can do a set of the most commonly missed, or make sure a certain percentage of each sets problems are the ones you child misses regularly. You can then look at their results in a pie graph or in a graph with time as the x axis to see how they are improving.

We do 250 problems a day for my 6 year old. He does all add/sub/mult/div 0-12. We use a time out of 8 seconds, but his average time per a problem is 4 seconds.

We start with the Sterling Math facts, then he does the warm up math facts page from Saxon, then he reads the chapter, he then does the mental math/problem solving, lesson review and finishes up with the 30 problems.

We use either the forms from the back of the tests/worksheets book or a form I found online for him to write his answers on or one I found online (I'll attach to this post). My husband or I correct it and then he works through the corrections on his own looking up the ones he missed if he didn't understand it, usually it is silly mistakes from having messy handwriting.

Any he misses after the second time through we watch him work to see where he is going wrong and redirect him. Usually however, when he does it with us watching he is more careful and will get it right.

[LDSMom]

Linzy - we've been using Sterling Math for my son, he was doing great on easy ones like +1 and +2 but now is struggling with +3. Did you work on memorizing the facts before having them use it, or do you just let them keep getting the wrong answer until they memorize the right one? do you let them count on fingers, use a number line, abacus, teach them the math dots, etc? just curious what your process is there. Thanks for any advice you can give!

[Mandabplus3]

Nee your focus on math facts and math facts only is a very sound plan. I am considering this for my boy but I think he likes math too much...he will need something else too. So I was thinking through what else is useful for Saxon success and I decided the only thing it doesn't teach is " how to think" it doesn't teach the problem solving skill of thinking through a possible route to an answer.
Basically I concluded that math facts plus a few random word problems throughout the day and a fairly solid idea of calendars is all that's needed.
Math facts should include halves and quarters of 100 ( and 1000 while you are at it) to save you time later.
The calendar stuff needed is days of the week months of the years and that 30 days has September song.
Yes it truly is a self taught math course. I almost never help my kids out. They just learn it then do it. They fix their own mistakes easily enough and I rarely have to help them get to an answer. Even my 7 year old is mostly independant. She just likes company while she does it. 

[linzy]

LDS Mom,

For my older son he had already been using flashcards before we switched over. Our problem was that he would dawdle with the flashcards forever, hence the timeout feature is very helpful.

For my 3 year old, I put the time out at 30-45 seconds. The first few times through the new problems I read it out and make it easier to understand. So I'll say for 3+1 "If you have 3 and I give you one more, how many do you have?, or What's one more then 3?, or What come one after 3?, one, two, three _____? Then I'll help him type it in. After we've done it a few times, I just let him get it wrong and see the answer and type it in right himself. I think lots of repetition will help it really sink in.

With my older son we let him "figure out" the problems, and now he often will go to calculating first even if he knows the answer. With my younger I"d rather he just learn them by heart as an instant response.

[Robert Levy]

Interesting tidbit today at work:

So far, at work, and beyond, there have been a grand total of two people that have asked how David managed to get so far ahead for his age, while hundreds of people (at least) know of him.  The rest, I speculate, figure that Einstein or someone like him transplanted some brain matter into David, and therefore there is no way that their kids could ever hope to achieve the same.  The two people are a Chinese immigrant in New Jersey and a Russian immigrant here in Houston that I work with (I've mentioned the Russian before, here).

Anyway, the Chinese immigrant got a bit weird and my wife is no longer in contact with her, but the Russian woman, that I work with, seems to understand the importance of parents providing primary instruction and has talked with me a bunch about David.  So I ran into her today and she quickly mentioned that, now, 11 more people in her Russian group (I assume mothers of young children) are now using Saxon Math.  She said that was because I told her about it, and then the other 11 parents saw it, and immediately concluded that was exactly what they were looking for (keep in mind, they all, likely, speak and understand English fluently).  So they saw Saxon Math and, I suspect, the way they were taught came to mind, and they knew that Saxon was the way to go.  In Russia, they didn't waste time trying to convince kids of that Che and Mandela were great mathematical minds - instead they just taught math.

I plan to ask more questions the next time I see her.  This country may yet be saved, but it will only be due to parents that take the primary education (reading and math) of their kids into their own hands.

[Mela Bala]

Interesting tidbit today at work:

So far, at work, and beyond, there have been a grand total of two people that have asked how David managed to get so far ahead for his age, while hundreds of people (at least) know of him.  The rest, I speculate, figure that Einstein or someone like him transplanted some brain matter into David, and therefore there is no way that their kids could ever hope to achieve the same.  The two people are a Chinese immigrant in New Jersey and a Russian immigrant here in Houston that I work with (I've mentioned the Russian before, here).

Anyway, the Chinese immigrant got a bit weird and my wife is no longer in contact with her, but the Russian woman, that I work with, seems to understand the importance of parents providing primary instruction and has talked with me a bunch about David.  So I ran into her today and she quickly mentioned that, now, 11 more people in her Russian group (I assume mothers of young children) are now using Saxon Math.  She said that was because I told her about it, and then the other 11 parents saw it, and immediately concluded that was exactly what they were looking for (keep in mind, they all, likely, speak and understand English fluently).  So they saw Saxon Math and, I suspect, the way they were taught came to mind, and they knew that Saxon was the way to go.  In Russia, they didn't waste time trying to convince kids of that Che and Mandela were great mathematical minds - instead they just taught math.

I plan to ask more questions the next time I see her.  This country may yet be saved, but it will only be due to parents that take the primary education (reading and math) of their kids into their own hands.

Thanks so much for sharing this with us.  It always makes my day better hearing about things like this.  Especially since a friend of mine who teaches in the school system has told me its no longer about educating children it's all about the numbers.  She is getting tired of fighting the system and is being looked down upon by her colleagues all because she cares that each of her students are not only becoming familiar with but are learning and understanding what she is teaching. 

[linzy]

Yes, I read obsessively about the state of education in our country and I don't know why. It only depresses me. Here locally there are 35 kids per a class with one teacher, a teacher I know was saying that not even half the kids even turn in their homework, so the idea of teaching kids individually or at their level or spending time trying to challenge kids that are ahead is laughable. She just wants to get most of them close to grade level and is grateful for the ones who are above grade level, because she figures they will take care of themselves and even if they don't make gains they will be where they need to be to advance. Luckily we are homeschooling, but it still is so incredibly sad to me, I just wish I could do something, I know it's not abusive but it feels like it sometimes to me.

[MummyRoo]

All the Russian parents I knew when I taught in Moscow were a little scary-obsessed with their kids getting perfect grades and working hard at school, so I'm not overly surprised that the Russian group would start doing Saxon. Especially considering that the schools generally stream with a maths or humanities focus. The maths stream in the school I worked at was teaching 15 year olds what I didn't cover until 18 (and both schools were in the top handful for the respective countries).

[nee1]

Nee your focus on math facts and math facts only is a very sound plan. I am considering this for my boy but I think he likes math too much...he will need something else too. So I was thinking through what else is useful for Saxon success and I decided the only thing it doesn't teach is " how to think" it doesn't teach the problem solving skill of thinking through a possible route to an answer.
Basically I concluded that math facts plus a few random word problems throughout the day and a fairly solid idea of calendars is all that's needed.
Math facts should include halves and quarters of 100 ( and 1000 while you are at it) to save you time later.
The calendar stuff needed is days of the week months of the years and that 30 days has September song.
Yes it truly is a self taught math course. I almost never help my kids out. They just learn it then do it. They fix their own mistakes easily enough and I rarely have to help them get to an answer. Even my 7 year old is mostly independant. She just likes company while she does it. 

Mandab, if you need a good source of story problems for your boy, you might want to look at Ray's New Primary Arithmetic. Excellent vintage book that teaches mastery of math facts but with use of story problems. That might serve as a stop gap for your boy while he learns the math facts by rote. There is a FREE copy online here - http://archive.org/details/raysnewprimarya00raygoog. To download a pdf, click ``All Files: HTTPS'' on the left hand side of the page. You'll find several file formats. One of those is a pdf.

I've gone through all the lessons in Saxon 54 and 65, and there are loads of word problems there. So Saxon teaches thinking. Calendars are covered in 65, with explanations of leap year, decade, century, months, days, etc. Fractions are also explained in 65, etc, etc.

As for the idea of focussing on math facts and math facts alone, I learnt that from the Robinson yahoo group. Loads of those parents focus on that alone. (According to Robinson, it can take a while for a child to master multiplication tables, division and subtraction, and addition). So those parents focus on just that, using math flashcards and programs such as Sterling Math or the free flashcard program (www.xtramath.org). Once the child masters his facts, they move the child straight to 54. And Robinson says in that video on his website  (at 29.27 minutes), that Saxon 54 was the first introductory book John Saxon wrote; and that Saxon K- 3 were simply busy work introduced by the publishers and padded out to fit the public school grade levels.

On this thread, Linzy explains more on math facts and how she used them to move to 54. Link - http://forum.brillkids.com/teaching-your-older-child/swann-family-10-children-with-ma-at-age-16!-book-review-and-discussion-thread/msg94278/#msg94278. Thank you so much, Linzy.

[nee1]

Interesting tidbit today at work:

So far, at work, and beyond, there have been a grand total of two people that have asked how David managed to get so far ahead for his age, while hundreds of people (at least) know of him.  The rest, I speculate, figure that Einstein or someone like him transplanted some brain matter into David, and therefore there is no way that their kids could ever hope to achieve the same.  The two people are a Chinese immigrant in New Jersey and a Russian immigrant here in Houston that I work with (I've mentioned the Russian before, here).

Anyway, the Chinese immigrant got a bit weird and my wife is no longer in contact with her, but the Russian woman, that I work with, seems to understand the importance of parents providing primary instruction and has talked with me a bunch about David.  So I ran into her today and she quickly mentioned that, now, 11 more people in her Russian group (I assume mothers of young children) are now using Saxon Math.  She said that was because I told her about it, and then the other 11 parents saw it, and immediately concluded that was exactly what they were looking for (keep in mind, they all, likely, speak and understand English fluently).  So they saw Saxon Math and, I suspect, the way they were taught came to mind, and they knew that Saxon was the way to go.  In Russia, they didn't waste time trying to convince kids of that Che and Mandela were great mathematical minds - instead they just taught math.

I plan to ask more questions the next time I see her.  This country may yet be saved, but it will only be due to parents that take the primary education (reading and math) of their kids into their own hands.

Robert,

I agree with you. I've gone through Saxon 65, and it resonated with me. I kept thinking ``that was exactly how I was taught math''. I saw those standard algorithms for division and multiplication alongside very clear explanations of the steps, just the way I was taught. There was no fuzzy new math stuff or the teaching of 50 different ways to do addition.

And there is another thing I've always pondered. Despite the promises of new math proponents (deeper math understanding, conceptual knowledge, blah, blah, blah), where are the Newtons, the Einsteins, the Eulers, that new math was supposed to produce? I haven’t heard of any yet, years after the implementation of new math. Rather, we are having poorer and poorer results in math. Food for thought.

Each time I think of the ``discovery'' method for math, your amazon review here comes to mind. 

I'm an engineer with 2 college degrees and a professional engineering license, so I knew what my kid needed to learn. When I went through my education, we learned the great names in math, like Pythagoras, Newton, and Euler, who had made great discoveries contributing to the field. I noted that my kid's name was not among them, so I decided that it was probably best to leave the discoveries to those people, while my kid simply took advantage of the discoveries and had the material taught to him. I knew that it wouldn't be a lot of "fun", but I wasn't particularly interested in trying to make math fun - I have enough common sense to know that kids are learning little, if anything, if they are having a lot of fun.
Other than Singapore Math, Saxon is the only method left in the United States that still uses the "Direct Instruction" method (memorizing times tables, etc.), as opposed to the "Discovery" method (where kids can spend 2 weeks coming up with different ways to solve 8 times 7). Direct Instruction is the traditional way to learn math, and I still haven't seen any data show why we, as a country, abandoned it (other than having our math scores drop to the bottom of the world).
While our child is not a genius, he was able to complete this book, plus the next 3 books prior to Algebra 1/2 in just over a year (and well before the material covered in school). That pretty much assured him never having to worry about his math education. I will always be indebted to John Saxon for his genius in writing these books.

Link to the review - http://www.amazon.com/review/REDQUKUP25PSG/ref=cm_cr_pr_cmt?ie=UTF8&ASIN=1565775031&nodeID=&tag=&linkCode#wasThisHelpful.

          

[Mandabplus3]

Nee don't get me wrong I am not suggesting ANY of those things are missing from. Saxon 5/4 but just that kids will need some basic understanding of them before hitting Saxon 5/4 in order to be able to do the questions. I know Saxon has all the answers for the calender stuff. But uTube problem is there is only one line telling the kids which months have 30 days and which ones have 31. Now yes they can read this chapter and answer all the questions, even flipping back through the book when they forget it in 3 days time BUT realistically it takes more than just reading one sentance a couple of times to remember which months have how many days.
As to the teaching thinking...lets see if I can explain this one... Children need to have some idea of how to manipulate numbers and number patterns to do Saxon 5/4. Even if they know their math facts by heart they need some critical thinking ability to complete even the patterns in the 3 rd chapter. Complete this pattern 3,6,9,------,15 or 24,20,------,14. Kids who can't think mathematically will come unstuck fast. They might also read the word problems and not have a clue where to start to solve the problem.  I do believe that if you are willing to sit and work with your children thought he first 10 chapters then the children WILL learn the skills needed just by doing the questions. ( yes particularly the word problems) they just might need some initial support to learn HOW to think them through. I hope that makes sense?
Thanks for the word problem link. I will definitely check that one out!

[nee1]

I get it.

But I don't think it takes critical thinking to understand the sequence you posted. A child that has all multiplication tables pat down will immediately recognise that sequence (3,6,9,------,15) to be the 3's counting up and the next one (24, 20, ....)  to be the 4's counting down

[Tamsyn]

Ray's New Primary Arithmetic looks FANTASTIC!  18 weeks to Saxon 5/4!  Thank you so much!  I've been ho-humming with math with no solid plan aside from "work on basic facts so we can get to 5/4".  This is the step-by-step practice we need.
I've been eying TMT's approach as well though.  I think my son would really enjoy doing the word problems in that book using the soroban to help.  http://teachingmytoddlers.blogspot.com/2013/03/learning-soroban-japanese-abacus.html

[Robert Levy]

Hi people,

When I hear the term "Higher Order Thinking Skills" it makes me cringe.  The term, I believe, was popularized in the 1960s and just about everything from that time frame has been a disaster for the country, with the exception of the space program, and that was due to people educated well before the 1960s.

My first thought with the term "Higher Order Thinking Skills" (abbreviated as HOTS for now on) is that it is a term used by the education establishment to make parents feel inferior or incompetent when discussing the education of their kids.  As far as I can tell, what the establishment says is that you can either have "Rote Memorization" (RM) or HOTS, but not both.  RM includes things like learning addition/multiplication tables, doing math by hand, and, I guess, phonics.  To them, calculators take care of all RM math tasks, so why bother teaching kids that material.  For reading, they look at phonics as stupid, because they all read by sight, like us too (hence the push for "Sight Words"; how we got here doesn't seem to matter to them).

In the case of math, I didn't stumble on to Saxon until David was 6.5 years old (with Saxon 54), and he still managed to get 8 years ahead of his age level in short order.  That gave him several years prior to Saxon to get through the RM part.  My point is that there is room for both and I think one can safely say that RM skills are very, very good to have, since you won't have a calculator with you every moment of your life and you don't want your kid to look illiterate when he needs a calculator to add 12 and 17.  On top of that, there's no assurance that a calculator will always be permitted in every scenario of your kid's life.  For example, the college where my mother taught, New Jersey Institute of Technology, terminated the use of calculators on math tests while she was there.  The kids there simply did not know arithmetic and the college did not want to be handing engineering degrees to them, setting them into a profession where mistakes cost lives.  As to those kids, well, New Jersey introduces calculators in math classes in Kindergarten (or at least did, at the time), so I just feel sorry for the kids.

As to HOTS overall, I kind of look at it as a side effect from using a good curriculum...not a primary purpose.  I think that I mentioned this earlier, but in David's case, I had to make a call as to whether to stall his RM development in favor of HOTS, or to ignore RM.  Specifically, he had no clue what 3 plus 4 meant, and as hard as I tried to teach him (i.e., apples, oranges, things like that) it was was hopeless.  I finally concluded that he would be better off if he could manipulate numbers first, and then figure out what it all meant later.  Likewise with reading - I didn't care if he understood the words, because I knew that he had plenty of time for learning that.  All I wanted when he was little was to simply be able to read the words.  I feel that I was right on both counts.

(usual disclaimer:  These are my opinions, based on my experience, feel free to ignore them if you don't like them)

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