We Can Do by Moshe Kai with guest Robert Levy discussing Saxon Math.

[sonya_post]

Mr. Levy,

You will find that many of the parents on here start teaching with sight words, using various means, but similar to the way you taught your child math facts. It serves a purpose when a child is very young. I doubt you will find very many parents on here defending whole language when a child is past 4. Most of us transition to phonics or combination of phonics/sight reading once a child learns the letter sounds and can start blending them. That has proven to be successful for most of the people on this forum. You will discover many parents here whose children are reading from a 4th grade to high school level when entering kindergarten. I'm not sure whole language is the same when applied to little kids (here meaning infants and toddlers). Just as it wasn't important that your child understand 3 apples plus 2 apples. But we certainly wouldn't want that going on in the 1st grade.

Speaking of 2 apples plus 3 apples, it never occurred to me that my son didn't need to understand the concept before I taught him the facts. Hmmmmm - that is something to think about.

I do have a question regarding early graduation from college. I have a child, now 17, that I intentionally did not permit early entrance to college. As you mentioned, the acceleration thing can be done, but it is so difficult to get it done. I did not want to send my child to college early for multiple reasons. Iowa State has a program and seeks young kids (tuition paid) to enter college early through the Belin Blank Center. Iowa State was about 4 hours from me at the time we considered it. We were also too far from a community college to make it feasible. - and it never occurred to me anyway. Plus, they are still children and I wanted my son to have a great books education which would be clipped short if he started college early. There isn't another time in his life that he is going to be free to really engage the best thinking of our ancestors. It does take some maturity to grasp certain things/ideas. I do regret extending my son's childhood/immature years past the age of 16 - he is merely finishing up some reading for me and biding his time. It hasn't been the most productive.  

Do you think your son got a full education? Or better still, if you think he did, how did you go about insuring that it was done? This is important to me now as I also have a 2 year old who is light years ahead of where his brother was at this age. His brother scored post high school on standardized exams since 6th grade.  

[Robert Levy]

Hi Sonya,

Thanks for the info on others here and I agree that I may be overreacting to sight words, in the context that you're speaking of.  My real problem is that they are now used to displace phonics from K through 3rd grade, which is older than Age 4.  I'm not really qualified to make a call on their early use, particularly if combined with real phonics.  So, I'll drop it...as I don't have anything more to say about it.

As to your question, it's an excellent one.  Believe it or not, when I started this adventure, I simply wanted to be the person that taught him the basics, as I had zero confidence in the ability of public schools to teach him, and I wasn't too confident about private schools (I simply cannot bring myself to trust someone that I know hardly anything about, to teach him such important material - I was not going to take chances, even if 99% of other parents don't mind throwing the dice).  So I set a target to keep him 2 years ahead of what he would be taught in school.  That way, if they wanted to do cute stuff like "lattice" multiplication, they were welcome to - but my kid always be able to fake it, do it the right way, and still have the right answer.  But then he started blowing through the Saxon books and that plan was out.  Reading was uncontrollable - I still vividly remember getting annoyed with him regarding the practice we did for the SAT.  I would tell him to read the passages with me.  Then his eyes started wondering - it wound up he was already reading 50% faster than me.

So that leads my answer - it's a really tough call.  If I had to set a criteria, it might be how the kid does with adults.  David never had trouble talking to them.  At one point, David handed me the phone and my mom (his grandmother) said she felt like she was talking to an adult.  He was probably around 6 years old then, but never was shy or withdrawn, or out of place with either older kids or adults.  I think he got that all from my wife, as he certainly didn't get it from me.  Now where it gets interesting is what if his personality was different.  If that was the case, I would have been much more worried about him...and probably would not have had him fully enrolled in college that far ahead a normal age (he was around 12, maybe 13, when he started full-time).  I'll never know...but the most important thing to have a kid who doesn't feel like a freak when he turns 18.  But I also understand the desire to not stall his learning.  It is tough for you - we have community college 8 miles away, and University of Houston 20 miles away.  I didn't want him living out of the house until he was at least 17...he still needed parenting, just to get him to do his homework and study (and he proved that to us one semester when we gave him some slack and nearly flunked his classes...LOL).  We both learned from it.

As to him getting a full education - David probably didn't get that, in your context, of exposure to the great books, as I wasn't much into that either.  He had some, but not much, he didn't like it much and we were more focused on college as a path to a career.  But to that concern, obviously the kid can take a few more classes in college, even if getting a technical degree, and still cover that material - I don't see that as a reason for delaying the start of college.

[Kerileanne99]

Oh, wow! I have SO many mixed emotions reading this thread! Especially coming at it from every angle imaginable! ( I graduated HS at just 15 and began Uni, with difficultly...I eventually joined the Army as I needed GUIDANCE!)
First off, Mr. Levy-
Thank you SO much for your valuable insights in this forum! You have managed to do what so many of us in this forum are hoping for...absolutely, accelerating your child mathematically and scientifically beyond high expectations, but instilli in him accountability, work ethic, and the desire to learn more, be more...

My hubby and I are biologists/chemists by nature/trade, and have been teaching our young toddler math for a while ( she is almost 2  yrs 9 mo). We are actually quite heavily into math games, manipulatives, etc., at this point, but have already abandoned many as she progresses, always at her insistence.
She has JUST started requesting worksheets and workbooks for further problems, and I am inclined to
encourage this. We have kept handwriting separate as she is a bit od a perfectionist...she answers math problems with stamps, an abacus, or a lower-case 'l' for a tally mark.

So yes, we already have LOTS of advanced math for her age, (including Saxon materials!) and are not progressing in a strictly linear fashion as she seems to have no problems learning multiplication tables via RB methods, or geography/ trigonometry... I guess my question would be, if you had it all to do again, would you have waited or started even earlier? Especially if homeschooling were on the table  also, because of our jobs, our child will have the ability to take/ audit just about any classes needed or wanted, for free, at almost any age!

Thanks so much for joining us here, and we are all incredibly appreciative to have a successful story, by an outstanding father, to encourage, enthrall, and enlighten us.
What a fantastic job you have done, walking that fine line between encouraging/ forcing/teaching/ leading your young son to greatness!  At he VERY least, the parents in this forum realize what a success/ accomplishment/ sacrifice/ ultimate gift of utter joy you managed to bestow upon your child!

[bella]

keri
could you please tell me more about your math adventure with Alex .  When you say you flew through level A rightstart . Is Alex able at her age to do the math the way rightstart recommend , no counting the beads on the abacus , recognizing them by sight ?? my little boy 3 still want to count and this is keeping us from progressing to new lessons .
Also there is a lot fo talk on the group about saxon math and memorizing arithm facts , equations ,... i am following right start math and we are half way through level B . I wonder if it is wise to just make them memorize the multiplication table as a song now that they are young and able to memorize anything , or i should wait till it comes in rightstart program .
on this subject , i know you got Alex so much math material , do you have anything that can teach skip counting in a fun way ?? songs ?? dvd ?? my kids mastered skip counting by 2 5 and 10 but i like to work on the others .

so is saxon something worth looking at ?? compared to singapore , rightstart and all the others ?
love
viv

[bella]

woops that was meant to be pm to keri ,yOU ARE ALLvery welcome to comment .
viv

[sonya_post]

Mr. Levy,

I think you have a point (well not only just a point but you are correct) to make about phonics and I am not asking you to drop the subject. Just clarifying for you the difference in how it might be applied to very young children of say 6-24 months versus a k-4th grader. Developmentally a child isn't able to sound out words when most of us are using whole words to learn reading. The results have been pretty amazing. We'd ask you to check out readingbear.org - created by one of our members. So, you are preaching to the choir here. Which is why we are all here anyway.

This forum has parents from all over the world so many your readers do not experience the same systemic educational failures that the US experiences, especially those from Asian countries.

There are more than a few of us who are quite fond of your snarkiness. Please, do not feel constrained.

[Robert Levy]

"There are more than a few of us who are quite fond of your snarkiness. Please, do not feel constrained."

LOL.   Thanks Sonya, but I've pretty much said as much as I can.  My only experience has been with my kid at age 3.5, and a few others starting a year or so older.  By that age, or certainly by age 4, as you alluded to, it's time for pure phonics.  When they're real little, they may well only be capable of sight words...I simply don't have a basis, or any experience with other kids taught that way.  I would still worry, somewhat, that their little brains get confused by trying to learn reading two entirely different ways...and they are pretty much reading by sight anyway, a year after learning to read by phonics.  The difference being that memorizing the words is subconscious, not something they do one at a time.  Again, my opinions are worth what you pay for them.

[Robert Levy]

Thanks Keri, I'll try to respond to your posting.

I don't really feel qualified to suggest to parents when to start.  You're approach might be best - if the kid is interested then you start moving out.  But you give a deadline and if the kid has no interest (like mine), you move out anyway, and start the process.  I wouldn't delay teaching reading beyond age 4, as I think any delay after that will lead to a less proficient reader (that's why I get so worked up about the way Sight Words are now used by the schools to delay the onset of phonics).  I think that any normal (non-learning disabled) kid can learn to read at that age.  There's not much to it, I think something like 32 letters and combinations thereof. 

Regarding hand-writing, one thing that was funny was that David had absolutely terrible hand writing and I never cared much...then one day, when he was maybe 13 or 14, literally one day, it became perfect (and stayed that way).  I have no idea how that happened, but it was a bit weird, to say the least.

"So yes, we already have LOTS of advanced math for her age, (including Saxon materials!)"
Nice.  I would suggest that when you start Saxon for real, you make sure junior does every single problem (as Saxon says to) and make sure that junior can fully understand each one.  Understanding 95% of the problems means you are missing a weakness in that 1%.  As a teacher of 25 kids, 95% might be excellent - as a parent of 1 (or a few) kids, 95% is an embarrassment.  There is not excuse for not working with junior until he can do every problem.  That's the huge advantage of parent-taught education, you can be that thorough, but you have to forget what is typically considered acceptable.

"I guess my question would be, if you had it all to do again, would you have waited or started even earlier?" It's a good question.  My starting time was determined almost totally due to luck (totally, in the case of reading...I was clueless until I heard that infomercial).  In the end, 8 years ahead in math, at one point, is more than enough (much more).  Having a kid that can (to this day) spell almost perfectly and read as well as he does (and did) was plenty.  So, I just don't see how he could have gained anything by starting earlier.  One other comment regarding reading - his pre-school was doing phonics when he was age 4 (of course he was reading fluently by then, so it didn't matter for him), but I remember that they were sloooowwww, real slow - as in one letter-sound per week.  That was insane, like I said earlier, I had him reading in 6 weeks - so don't be afraid to keep moving when you start - same with Saxon (of course) - no summer breaks for David.

"Thanks so much for joining us here, and we are all incredibly appreciative to have a successful story, by an outstanding father, to encourage, enthrall, and enlighten us.
What a fantastic job you have done, walking that fine line between encouraging/ forcing/teaching/ leading your young son to greatness!  At he VERY least, the parents in this forum realize what a success/ accomplishment/ sacrifice/ ultimate gift of utter joy you managed to bestow upon your child!"

That is really, really, nice, thank you.  The feeling is mutual.  One thing I learned, the hard way, is that most of my peers consider David as a genius that would have done great in any environment, and me as a politically-charged nutcase that simply hates our schools and teachers, who just want the best for the children.  They are partially right...I do have big problems with "the system", because they seem to drop what works, for untested 'experiments' that always fail (I was about to write "almost always fail", but I couldn't think of a success they've had in decades).  But one of the reasons that I bragged as much as I did (early on) was that I really believed that other parents would be interested in how David got to where he was, and would want to do the same for their kids.  But I think their reaction was more like me calling them failures as parents, for not having kids as 'smart' as David, when they actually (generally) did have kids just as smart - it just never crossed my mind that they would think that way of me.  So, once I figured that out, I simply stopped talking about him and now could care less regarding their kids.  It wound up that only one person that I know from work (and I know many people and most of them know David) ever bothered to ask me how I did it - and she was a Russian immigrant.  She's using Saxon for her kids.

So it's really nice to be on this site - you people seem totally different than just about everyone around me.

[Korrale4kq]

I understand too well about not talking about your child's sucess. I have upset a few parents who think they have failed their children because they can't read at 2. I feel sad for their insecurities.

And recently I was taking to my son's early intervention teacher about his reading and math success and another parent overheard and said that it was monstrous that I was teaching my son these things so early.
My son loves math. He learnt to read in a fun engaging way as we spent time cuddling together. Monstrous indeed!!

I love coming here to this forum. I love hearing success stories. It is inspiring.

[Robert Levy]

"I understand too well about not talking about your child's sucess. I have upset a few parents who think they have failed their children because they can't read at 2. I feel sad for their insecurities."

I hear you.  My problem was that I wasn't able to tell what was going on.  In the end, who was I?,  compared to the 'experts' that have dedicated their lives and careers to the betterment of children.  What was doubly-bad for me was (and is) that I'm a political animal, and I see political motivation where others simply are unable to (or, more likely, choose not to).  For example, I see the people that run our education system as being driven to 'equalize' things.  First, to equalize the kids in the schools, and then to equalize the country (as compared to other countries).  Most people cannot accept that, but I've read enough Thomas Sowell books, lived in their dorms, read their newspapers (every one I could find) and went to their teach-ins - so I have zero doubt that I'm right.  I'm not saying that everyone in this system has bad intentions, because I don't believe that's so - but I do think that about the ones at the top, the decision makers, the union leaders, virtually to the person, are like that.

So, for parents, to knowingly hand over their kids to this system, after hearing me describe it that way, would be the ultimate act of child neglect.  So it's easier to simply write me off as a nutcase, and instead trust those really sweet teachers, who just love the kids.


"And recently I was talking to my son's early intervention teacher about his reading and math success and another parent overheard and said that it was monstrous that I was teaching my son these things so early."

It was funny.  At work, a older guy, really smart, but with no social skills (simply not liked by our team or anyone else that got near him), tried to convince me that I was "pushing my kid too hard".  I politely brushed him off.  I then tried that on my wife - she wasn't quite as diplomatic as me, LOL.  But even my mom asked the same thing.  Yes, I was "pushing him" as he felt he had better things to do with his time back then.  But, like I said before, your kids don't win in this country by conforming to "the system", and every one of my wife's friends knew that (they're all immigrants from Taiwan) - and every one of their kids were in after-school learning programs, and usually also on Saturdays.  Yes, Asian kids are generally smart, but 95% of why they do better in school is because they are mostly educated outside of "the system".


"My son loves math. He learnt to read in a fun engaging way as we spent time cuddling together. Monstrous indeed!!"

I agree, but in my opinion, your response is somewhat defensive.  I'd suggest going on offense, and asking those parents why they entrust something as important as the education of their kids (at least for reading and math) to a bunch of virtual strangers with strange-sounding college degrees (and course work), who partied their way through college (and believe me, they did, I was there with them), and have very little accountability regarding the outcome of their students (i.e., as long as 'the system' can keep our present education system in place, there will be a steady flow of 'customers', regardless of results).

Consider that, in contrast to how we're ultimately judged as parents - by whether our kids graduate college, and if so, in what field, and whether they go on to have their own families.  That simply doesn't exist for 'Mrs. Williamson', junior's teacher.

[PokerDad]

Robert, [warning, long political diatribe ahead]

I had been meaning to ask you (though off topic) what Thomas Sowell books you had read. I've gone through Race & Culture and have a few others on audio book that I haven't gotten to yet. I started reading his articles that come out every week or so in Investors Business Daily... mostly since I had read your Amazon review that talked about him.

Sadly, I think you'll find (especially if you look and think about it hard enough) that most of the social structures in the USA as currently in place, are now a mechanism to disable the typical citizen. It's quite disheartening. I don't think it's "one side or the other" that's primarily responsible but perhaps the system itself that enables self-interest at the highest levels. I'll give you an example that is on topic of this thread...

So David will soon graduate with a Masters in Mechanical Engineering. For the typical student (ie, a product of the system), this means they'll be around 24 or 25 years old if they hurry through - they'll likely be a hundred grand or more in debt and will have given up 6 years of prime working age to pursue academics. Higher education is one of those systems that is currently lining the pockets of some members of society while simultaneously robbing the client (the citizens). I've yet to hear a single politician discuss why this is happening, and in fact, only hear solutions that actually feed the problem. Making student loans more affordable (lower interest rates) is not the same as making education affordable - and the two are actually polar opposites.

The result is that you have students coming out of college in excess of 100,000 in debt; often times you have parents that have crippled their financial situation at a time when they could ill-afford it, and this happens in tandem with the monstrous debt or in lieu of it. Coupled with the opportunity costs of gaining traction in a career (especially at a time like this - which by the way - will only get worse in the US) really has made it frequently a stupid choice to pursue education. Three years ago I had to make a personal choice to pursue an advanced degree or not. I really wanted to, but decided to use the cash to buy a house outright. I'd have my doctorate right now, but am reading how the employment in that particular field is so abysmal that it could hardly justify the sacrifice, and that is why I sadly made the choice that I did.

My point is that David does not have to worry about opportunity costs. By the time his peers get their masters in mechanical engineering, David will have SIX full years under his belt. That could prove to be a lifetime in the sense that he might be the guy on the other side of the table in a job interview (okay, I might be overstating, but you get the idea).

It's not inconceivable that your actions saved your son in excess of $400,000 in lost wages and tuition. That's a really sizable chunk of money.

Who does it serve to create a generation of serfs? Hmmm. Sadly, they are not of the age nor wisdom to see how they're being fleeced and robbed blind. Current political polling tells me all I need to know on this matter.

Regarding math in today's school. You really were spot on. They didn't start teaching me until I was in 8th grade!

I remember being in middle school in particular, and hating my math teacher because she seemed so stupid. The specific memory I had was when she was teaching how to calculate cubed volume. This is really simple stuff - and the way she talked down to us, I was so offended. The worst was when she required that we put the measurements for length, width, and height in the "proper order"... which pissed me off to no end because my child logic told me that if you turn the box in any direction, the multiplication problem doesn't change nor does its answer.
This particular school left me in remedial math during my 7th grade year while the kids exposed to a few more concepts had pre-algebra. At the end of that year, they tested EVERYONE on how well they could LEARN math. I scored near the top and placed into algebra for 8th grade.... I remember when I took Algebra 2 in high school... I finished the class in February and sat around twiddling my thumbs for months goofing off while everyone else caught up. This happened because I had a teacher that did worksheets and allowed me to study on my own.

When I look back, I could have learned so much more in mathematics - but the system, geared to teach to the lowest common denominator, failed me.

I remember helping a few of my friends with their math in high school and was shocked at how horrible the teachers were. They made simple concepts difficult, and in turn, the students felt stupid (IMO).

I will not allow my little boy to be processed like this. That's why I'm here. I do have a bit of a hurdle - my wife is one of those educators, and I see fallacious thinking everywhere and beliefs that are proven (via cognitive psychology studies) to be false and yet the system just churns out dogmatic BS which in turn, cripples the populace.

Why does the system allow fully capable children to just sit there like dummies? Just remembering all this stuff has me angry as can be.

I'm with you Robert. Not in my house. I'm specifically here on a early learning forum because I have a few years before he's school aged - and if I can get him off to great start, they won't have the chance to mess him up.
        

Regarding the goal of equality. It will never be achieved. It cannot ever be achieved in education in any form (including equal "opportunity") nor can it ever be achieved as an economic outcome even under the most severe Marxist ideals. The only way you might have some form of equality in education would be to adopt policies of eugenics - and we're not the Third Reich so that won't happen (nor am I saying that it should). Even though there's little we can do, it's not to say that our current system is tenable. Every where I look I see people talking about "it's the middle class stupid" - these people, all the way up to types like Robert Reich, are either liars or imbeciles on the topic; I've yet to hear a single one of these political types mention fractional reserve lending and how it has stripped wealth from the people. Oh well I guess. Not much I can do about it.

But the education system in our country is so misplaced it's not even funny. There is something I can do about that - I can take matters into my own hands the way you did.

I think you've nailed it, so no need for me to continually beat the dead horse while among the choir.

[Tamsyn]

I'm not going to even go into how upset I am at the current state of the public education system in the USA.

Wow, what an amazing thread!  I finally got through all of it.  I too am glad Mr Levy came to visit us.  I agree that the way we are teaching whole-words in the public schools is terrible.  For all intents and purposes, phonics first makes sense.  However, I do want to share my story with my little guy.  When I was starting to teach my oldest, 1, how to read, and told my father-in-law, a public school teacher with his Masters degree, that I planned on using sight words first, he became very concerned.  He told me horror stories of what happens in the public schools, and how it keeps a lot of kids from confidently reading.  He ultimately quit teaching because they wouldn't let him teach phonics to the special-ed kids.  His aids tattled on him, saying they didn't like the way he taught, it wasn't the way they were told to teach kids, and it wasn't the materials that the school board handed out.  It was very stressful for him, affecting his health (almost killing him), and his story had a big impact on me.  So I tried to teach my first through phonics alone.  He knew his ABCs very well at 18 months, and by age two, he could sound out a few rehearsed words and a few sight words like "Mommy" and "Peter".  That was all, and a year later, we hadn't made any progress despite several different techniques and games that I presented to him.  In the meantime, I saw the YouTube videos of other babies reading, and heard the testimonials here on BrillKids and in a yahoo group.  They were all learning to read via the whole-word methods.  Then my husband went to a workshop where they talked about the human memory.  The typical adult can easily remember 7 things in a process easily, but not 8 or more without more practice, and that is why our phone numbers are 7 digits long.  A baby can remember one, then two, and so on as they get older.  That's why a baby's first sentences are one word,  "Mine!"  "Hurt!", etc.  We reasoned that our son couldn't sound out words because in a word like "cat", by the time he sounded out the "t", he had forgotten about the "c"  He was also excited about the letters, and the concept of blending them into words was hard for him to grasp.  So we threw in the towel, and applied ourselves to the whole word method.  Something clicked, and he picked it up very quickly.  I'm sure all of the previous work we had done with him helped, but he still wouldn't have made that connection without that switch.  I have taught whole-word first with my 2nd and 3rd, and they are both doing very well.  Oddly enough, I have never tried to teach my just-turned-2-year-old his ABCs, but he learned them at a much younger age than my older son, and he can read simple books now.  Anyway, that's my perspective on why the whole-word method works for babies, and why phonics doesn't as much.  All of my children have enjoyed the whole-word approach much more.  Phonics were laborious, and required a certain level of testing to progress.  Whole word can be about building vocabulary at the same time.  Children can learn to read a book that they are interested in, and feel a confidence-building measure of success when they finish it.  That has motivated my own children to work harder in their pursuit of reading.

Just my two cents.

[Robert Levy]

Hi PokerDad - here's my reply:

"I had been meaning to ask you (though off topic) what Thomas Sowell books you had read. I've gone through Race & Culture and have a few others on audio book that I haven't gotten to yet. I started reading his articles that come out every week or so in Investors Business Daily... mostly since I had read your Amazon review that talked about him."


I read "Inside American Education" about 15 years ago, and any thought of me sending my kid to public school was quashed - it's that good, and nothing's changed.  He has more footnotes and references than I've ever seen in one place.  No one disputes him, simply because it's not possible.  He's a legend.  I first started reading his columns in college, incredible insights.  I haven't read him much lately, but he does talk about how he grew up as a black in Harlem well before the civil rights movement, and how, back then, kids like him were given expectations, not excuses.  He's certain that he would have ended up as a street thug if he grew up now, in that place.


"Sadly, I think you'll find (especially if you look and think about it hard enough) that most of the social structures in the USA as currently in place, are now a mechanism to disable the typical citizen. It's quite disheartening. I don't think it's "one side or the other" that's primarily responsible but perhaps the system itself that enables self-interest at the highest levels. I'll give you an example that is on topic of this thread"

I do think it's primarily on one side, based on what I've seen since college.  That is very, very, difficult for people to accept - but bad, malicious, people tend to congregate together throughout history, and good, well meaning people, simply allow it, because they cannot bring themselves to accept what these people really want and have in store for them.  For example (without getting too political), when someone says that our country is overpopulated, that scares me, because if they really believe that, then they'll feel compelled to do something about it, if they get power.


"So David will soon graduate with a Masters in Mechanical Engineering. For the typical student (i.e., a product of the system), this means they'll be around 24 or 25 years old if they hurry through - they'll likely be a hundred grand or more in debt and will have given up 6 years of prime working age to pursue academics. Higher education is one of those systems that is currently lining the pockets of some members of society while simultaneously robbing the client (the citizens). I've yet to hear a single politician discuss why this is happening, and in fact, only hear solutions that actually feed the problem. Making student loans more affordable (lower interest rates) is not the same as making education affordable - and the two are actually polar opposites."

I couldn't agree more.  The other interesting aspect of college is that, essentially, it is the only product that I know of which is priced according to one's ability to pay.  That's done through 'financial aid' which includes grants and loans.  If you make less money, you pay less, if you make more, you pay more (up to the insane sticker price of private schools).  Ever see that at Walmart, or buying a car or a house?   That just shows how far out of whack, and maybe even illegal, the pricing system is for colleges.  And yes, if the government gave everyone a voucher for $10,000 for buying a new car, and assuming that production of new cars didn't respond (as colleges generally add capacity very slowly or not at all), then guess what - new cars would cost just about exactly $10,000 more, and the UAW (and auto companies) would be the  ones benefiting, not the buyers.


"The result is that you have students coming out of college in excess of 100,000 in debt; often times you have parents that have crippled their financial situation at a time when they could ill-afford it, and this happens in tandem with the monstrous debt or in lieu of it. Coupled with the opportunity costs of gaining traction in a career (especially at a time like this - which by the way - will only get worse in the US) really has made it frequently a stupid choice to pursue education. Three years ago I had to make a personal choice to pursue an advanced degree or not. I really wanted to, but decided to use the cash to buy a house outright. I'd have my doctorate right now, but am reading how the employment in that particular field is so abysmal that it could hardly justify the sacrifice, and that is why I sadly made the choice that I did."

Good call on your part.  I had some 'debates' with my wife as to whether David should get a PhD also.  I simply didn't see the benefit in it and I remember the nightmares that some people were having in graduate school (I have a Master's in EE) trying to finish their PhD's.  It seemed the university was almost keeping them there as slaves, with some pushing something like 8 years there trying to finish.  The math simply doesn't work out, when you compare it to entering the workforce with a lower degree, at least in engineering.  As it was with David, he doesn't want to go further and he's an adult now, so it's his call.  On broader view - people who work with their hands can make a lot of money, and skip the college game, and, especially the debt.  Heck, I live like a king here in Texas, simply because I've done both - I work as an engineer and virtually no one else (other than David) ever lays a finger on my house or my cars.  There's a lot of money to be made there in the trades, and I've learned them well enough to keep that money to myself...but for others, just learn the stuff well (wiring, plumbing, AC repair, or auto repair, etc.), and the opportunities are endless.


"My point is that David does not have to worry about opportunity costs. By the time his peers get their masters in mechanical engineering, David will have SIX full years under his belt. That could prove to be a lifetime in the sense that he might be the guy on the other side of the table in a job interview (okay, I might be overstating, but you get the idea)."

Thanks, I've thought about that and agree.  He was young, and really couldn't work.  He was also small (not any more, now full-sized), and he struggled to work on cars and bend #12 wiring on to screw terminals.  But that's over, and now he's likely stronger than myself.  In other words, you try to finish off educating the kid before that tradeoff becomes necessary.  Earlier this year, a doctor had done the opportunity cost trade that you mentioned, comparing himself to a UPS driver, who started that job right after high school (it was on the web).  The doctor eventually came out ahead but not until he was almost 50 years old.  He simply took the amount of hours he put into his education and practice and the eventual revenue - and compared it to a UPS driver starting at maybe $12 per hour, working the same number of hours (including OT).  It was amazing - and we're not even talking the trades here.


"It's not inconceivable that your actions saved your son in excess of $400,000 in lost wages and tuition. That's a really sizable chunk of money."

Agree - since David wasn't going to go public school, regardless, the college tuition money would have been spent on high school and junior high school tuition, so that was a push for us.  Texas A&M has a job fair this week, we'll see what (if any, just to cover myself) offers he might get.  Assuming that he actually finishes this semester in good standing, he's done and can start work at age 18.5, with a Master's.  Although it sounds a bit selfish, he could even help us (wife and I)out for a while if my job disappeared (my wife doesn't work), and we lost 3 of 8 power channels on the Space Station last week (we've since recovered 2 of them) - simply because he doesn't have debt or a family to worry about.  But, for now, we don't need his money, so he keeps it.


"Who does it serve to create a generation of serfs? Hmmm. Sadly, they are not of the age nor wisdom to see how they're being fleeced and robbed blind. Current political polling tells me all I need to know on this matter."

Agree.  I even see it with David's friends from UH, who are engineering graduates, in their early 20s.  They're making good money (~80k) in petro-chem, but seem to blow it as fast as it comes in.  I've had some 'discussions' with him regarding meeting up with them and 'going to lunch' as they seem find places that I would never even dream of taking my wife, just due to the cost.  As for debt - that's simply a human weakness - two thirds of people (in my estimation) will simply grab money that's held out in front of them and worry about paying it back later (hence the housing bubble/crisis).  I'll never forget that when we finished building our house and had something like $40k left available in our construction loan (we ran the project), I told the loan officer that I didn't want that money - he was SHOCKED.  No one rejects that kind of money.  And...if I didn't have to pay it back, sure,  I would have taken it too.


"Regarding math in today's school. You really were spot on. They didn't start teaching me until I was in 8th grade!  I remember being in middle school in particular, and hating my math teacher because she seemed so stupid. The specific memory I had was when she was teaching how to calculate cubed volume. This is really simple stuff - and the way she talked down to us, I was so offended. The worst was when she required that we put the measurements for length, width, and height in the "proper order"... which pissed me off to no end because my child logic told me that if you turn the box in any direction, the multiplication problem doesn't change nor does its answer."

Yep, and people blindly trust their kids to that system.  What I remember when I was young was having a great 6th grade math teacher (honor's math)...and then entering junior high where 3 or 4 other schools were folded in.  Guess what, their math teachers were not as good.  So we spent the first 8 months doing arithmetic, and the last month in a very-compressed pre-Algebra - when most of the school year should have been pre-algebra.  I had 100% on every grade in the first 8 months (knew it all inside out).  I collapsed into B's and (mostly) C's once Algebra started, and right through college.  I'll never, ever, forget that.  That was a driver in my life.  The other driver was going bowling with friends before they had automatic scoring machines.  I could add up my score instantly - probably due to bowling twice a week.  The other kids struggled like hell to add up their scores (this is 5th through 8th grade).  I guess the 'improved' math they were teaching did not see a need for arithmetic anymore.  I can give a similar example for reading.  Given all of that, there was no way in hell that I would let a virtual stranger ever teach my kids something that important, never.


"This particular school left me in remedial math during my 7th grade year while the kids exposed to a few more concepts had pre-algebra. At the end of that year, they tested EVERYONE on how well they could LEARN math. I scored near the top and placed into algebra for 8th grade.... I remember when I took Algebra 2 in high school... I finished the class in February and sat around twiddling my thumbs for months goofing off while everyone else caught up. This happened because I had a teacher that did worksheets and allowed me to study on my own."

See, it took you 6 months to finish Algebra 2.  Had 'the system' allowed you to continue at your pace, you would have finished off another year of math (at least if you include the summer).  That was exactly David's pace at the Algebra 2 level - he was nothing special (a nice kid, though), I simply took advantage of the time that was available to him.


"When I look back, I could have learned so much more in mathematics - but the system, geared to teach to the lowest common denominator, failed me."

Yea, that's a given.  Like I've said a number of times, I know the mindset of the people that run the system.  They simply want equalization of results, and they do not care at what level that is.  I once read an article that said credit card companies consider people that pay off their cards every month (like me) to be 'deadbeats', in the sense that we're not helping their bottom-line very much (i.e., no interest or penalty charges).  Likewise smart kids, to the schools, are, essentially, looked at in the same way - as a nuisance that they have to endure.  I really think some of them consider an advanced kid as an abused kid (by their parents) and want to 'save' that kid from further abuse - be ready for that.


"I remember helping a few of my friends with their math in high school and was shocked at how horrible the teachers were. They made simple concepts difficult, and in turn, the students felt stupid (IMO)."

Dr. Sowell is clear that the people that go to the "Schools of Education" are not the brightest in the lot, so that doesn't help to begin with.  Second, these "Schools of Education" spend all of their time in theoretical crap and don't bother teaching their students how to actually teach kids.  And then they politicize the students.  There is absolutely no way that Whole Language and Fuzzy Math could have be where they are today, without teachers actually wanting, badly wanting, those failed approaches - and there are surveys that prove it.


"I will not allow my little boy to be processed like this. That's why I'm here. I do have a bit of a hurdle - my wife is one of those educators, and I see fallacious thinking everywhere and beliefs that are proven (via cognitive psychology studies) to be false and yet the system just churns out dogmatic BS which in turn, cripples the populace."

Sorry about your wife...I can't help much there.


"Why does the system allow fully capable children to just sit there like dummies? Just remembering all this stuff has me angry as can be."

You answered that:  Lowest Common Denominator.  If you randomly grab 20 cars off the street, and have them all drive 500 miles as fast as they can, there will be a lot of drivers waiting around at the end for the race to end.


"I'm with you Robert. Not in my house. I'm specifically here on a early learning forum because I have a few years before he's school aged - and if I can get him off to great start, they won't have the chance to mess him up."

My sample set is limited, but I'm convinced that just about any kid can do this.  Best of luck there, and remember what I always tell parents - make sure that junior knows who's in charge, and it's not subject to negotiation, ever.


"Regarding the goal of equality. It will never be achieved. It cannot ever be achieved in education in any form (including equal "opportunity") nor can it ever be achieved as an economic outcome even under the most severe Marxist ideals. The only way you might have some form of equality in education would be to adopt policies of eugenics - and we're not the Third Reich so that won't happen (nor am I saying that it should). Even though there's little we can do, it's not to say that our current system is tenable. Every where I look I see people talking about "it's the middle class stupid" - these people, all the way up to types like Robert Reich, are either liars or imbeciles on the topic; I've yet to hear a single one of these political types mention fractional reserve lending and how it has stripped wealth from the people. Oh well I guess. Not much I can do about it."

Well stated...that's obvious to us, but not to everyone.


"But the education system in our country is so misplaced it's not even funny. There is something I can do about that - I can take matters into my own hands the way you did."

Exactly.  You don't need to participate on their terms.  That's what I did.  You will get flack, maybe lots of it, so be prepared.  Even family and close friends often think a kid is being abused because you have him do math problems for 3 hours a day, rather than sitting like a zombie in front of a TV screen or 'saving the world' in his video games for those 3 hours (even if he still has other hours to be a zombie).


"I think you've nailed it, so no need for me to continually beat the dead horse while among the choir."

Yes, this was a fun post to reply to.

[Robert Levy]

To Tamsyn,

I've pretty much said what I can on Sight Words.  Like your FIL says, they are a disaster for older kids.  For kids less than 3 years, who knows?  But one thing that I did learn in researching Sight Words, again regarding older kids, was how their brains got confused as to which method to use as they came across words.  It probably would have been better to simply not teach them reading until 3rd or 4th grade, if the alternative is only sight words.  But for super-young kids, I'm simply out of my league...although I can't imagine better results than I got with David, doing phonics-only, starting at age 3.5.

[sonya_post]

Hey, can you elaborate on what you did with Hamlet?

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