We Can Do by Moshe Kai with guest Robert Levy discussing Saxon Math.

[Mandabplus3]

Thanks so much.
Yes the punishment of math is something iwill keep an eye on. Oh and David, yes thats my backup plan for repeated bad behaviour. 
I definately run the show in this house my kids are not spoilt video game kids who don't know what a reward means. They might have trouble explaining what a video game is actually....  Nope her reward is exactly what she REALLY wants and it's something she knows I wouldn't normally buy any of my kids. She desperately wants an iPod. She has been asking for one for about 18 months. I have said no because I am sure it will lead to other behaviour I don't like. ( room isolation, ignoring her siblings and head phones) Since I gave her the reward motivation she is zipping through the lessons very quickly. Tonight she asked if she could read in the car on the way to and from school and do math lessons in her bedtime reading time! She knows she is time poor so she is looking for ways to fit it in faster. We don't have time for TV and videos in this house. I schedule in free play time we are that busy!
So your reply confirmed my plan. Whizz through this one 5/4 and get started on 6/5 ASAP which should provide some challenge. Thanks for mentioning to skip the first 40 lessons ( although I may skip a few less than that) I wasn't sure on that idea for the next book, but i could clearly see the revision in this one. I made her do it anyway this time around.
My second daughter ( she is 6 also) is very nearly ready to start it then. She can do double digit addition and subtraction now. We shall do more practice all the same. I want the Saxon to count and I only want to do it once with her! She will be hard work. I can't see her doing division but that's obviously my issue not hers as she can do multiplication.  I guess it's time to go make some flash cards! ( oh boy I laughed so hard reading that one, my hubby was thinking I was a little deranged!  )
Thanks again!

[Robert Levy]

That sounds fine, you seem to have a good plan.  I showed that line on the flash cards to my kid too.  As cynical as I was towards public education at the start with David, I only got worse as the years went by.  After all, like I say, I'm a  second-rate engineer with zero training on how kids learn, how to motivate them, and even what curriculum works.  But I followed my instincts based on my experiences and what I was hearing in the political world - which was completely different than what the experts insist on, and David (obviously) blew past their template.  It's hard to think of an analogy, but the one that comes to mind (to me) would be if my wife has surgery for something, and she improves, but not all that much - but the doctor says that the best that medicine can do.  So I (as a non-doctor) say, "I can do better", so I cut her open, do a few things, and she winds up much, much, better off.  If that happened, one could, I'm sure, then understand my cynicism towards the medical community.  But that would never happen (of course), I would never consider trying, and if I did, I'd be looking at decades in jail.  But that's my point - I shouldn't be able to do something better than a field that has millions and millions of workers and trillions of dollars of money to work with - but I did in education, and much, much, better.   So when I make my snide remark about flash cards, you know where I'm coming from - and what is true now, is that the flash cards actually have the answer (along with the problem) in small print on the back.  I suspect too many parents complained when they needed to have a calculator with them as they worked the problems (LOL).  Anyway, I bring this up to warn you (and others) that if you pull this off, you may wind up as a different person, even more polarized than you may have been when you started.

Just a bit of caution on the IPOD - they do have internet capability if you have a wireless system in your place (or a neighbor has an unlocked system).  I would strongly advise to keep that locked out as long as possible.  Listen to music - fine, surf the web, not so fine.  And be sure you understand it - I don't, I only know what David tells me, and he didn't get his until only a year ago (I got him MP3 players prior, but not an IPOD).

Anyway, your plan sounds great and please keep us all informed.

[A_BC]

I am joining this interesting conversation a bit late although I've been following it from the start. Needless to say that I am so thankful to Mr. Levy for sharing his valuable experience with us. Now my question is about David's leisure time. Does he have any hobbies he's doing "just for fun"? How much time does he spend on them and how do you let him know that "there is a time for playing and there is time for working" (a quote from a Brillkids book )

Thanks for sharing

P.S: BTW, I am a neighbor

[nee1]

The reason that I bring that up is because it was books like "Inside American Education" by Thomas Sowell that kept me going - along with other books critiquing today's educational system (there are plenty out there, and I read maybe another 5 or 6).  And it was my political instincts - I simply was not going to let the same people that I didn't trust to run this country - educate my kids.  I just couldn't see how they would do that right, when they couldn't even figure out who the bad guys were during the Cold War (sorry for the politics, but it is part of what drove me).  All of that kept me going...and then things started dropping into place as he read quicker and started breezing through math.

Robert, many thanks for your recent posts. You've given me a lot more to think about.

Apart from Sowell's 'Inside American Education', what other 5-6 books did you read? Can you paste their titles? I've read `Dumbing Us Down' by John Gatto and `Dumbing Down Our Kids - Why American Kids Feel Good About Themselves but Can't Read, Write, or Add'  by Charles Sykes.

I've also read a lot of Harold Stevenson's cross-cultural studies on academic performance between nations and I shared my insights on this thread  - http://forum.brillkids.com/general-discussion-b5/why-japanese-and-chinese-kids-outperform-american-children-(research-article)/.  And this one  http://forum.brillkids.com/teaching-your-child-math/proportion-of-el-time-devoted-to-math-(split-from-2-year-old-thread)/msg89195/
 
I'm in Europe and I'm seeing the same trends in schools here - the 'feel good' and 'self-esteem' syndrome, the substitution of solid academic content for indoctrination, etc. At least by reading these books, I'll know what exactly is going on in those schools and how to prepare myself in case my kid ends up in one of them. As they say 'to be forewarned is to be forearmed’. What are the other titles you read?  Thank you.

[Robert Levy]

Hi A_BC,

"I am so thankful to Mr. Levy for sharing his valuable experience with us. Now my question is about David's leisure time. Does he have any hobbies he's doing "just for fun"?"

You're welcome, and I would say the hobby that he likes most is computer programming.  I had him take some pretty tough classes in "C" when he was, maybe, 8 years old - and like any kid who's actually learning something, he didn't enjoy it much.  But then he got the hang of it, and from what I can tell (I don't program), he's very, very, good, and just loves it.  Prior to that, about the only thing that he'd want to do was play with his toys.  I never enjoyed sports much, although he did the Karate thing and baseball (for very young types).  But programming was the only hobby that was really all his.  One thing that comes to mind that I haven't mentioned before, although it doesn't fit your question was that he would wiped out, because of doing the math, by 9:00 to 10:00 at night (depending on his age).  This worked great for all of us, because when hit the bed, he never, ever, had trouble sleeping, he was solid asleep - and as parents, that certainly made our lives easier.


"How much time does he spend on them and how do you let him know that "there is a time for playing and there is time for working""

That was very simple.  When it was time for working, I told him.  No negotiation - I simply told him.  When it wasn't time for working, then it was time for playing.


"P.S: BTW, I am a neighbor smile"

Please define what "neighbor" is - you know who I am.

[Robert Levy]

Hi Nee1,

"Apart from Sowell's 'Inside American Education', what other 5-6 books did you read? Can you paste their titles? I've read `Dumbing Us Down' by John Gatto and `Dumbing Down Our Kids - Why American Kids Feel Good About Themselves but Can't Read, Write, or Add'  by Charles Sykes."

That's a good set of books you list up there.  Sykes was the second name that came to my mind.  To be honest, I don't remember the others, and I've long since given them away.  If I were doing it now, though, I'd go to amazon, look up "Inside American Education" and then see the books they suggest, which are typically similar in philosophy - also read the comments, as they often point you to good stuff.  But given the above books, I think you're about set.  You'll see that these books are very good in getting you in right mindset to go against 90% plus of the country and educate your child outside of "the system".  The actual instruction, however, is not covered in those books.  For that I'm not as sure, as I basically winged it, and didn't have a manual to go by.


"I've also read a lot of Harold Stevenson's cross-cultural studies on academic performance between nations and I shared my insights on this thread  - http://forum.brillkids.com/general-discussion-b5/why-japanese-and-chinese-kids-outperform-american-children-(research-article)/.  And this one  http://forum.brillkids.com/teaching-your-child-math/proportion-of-el-time-devoted-to-math-(split-from-2-year-old-thread)/msg89195/"

Interesting, I'll check that out.


"I'm in Europe and I'm seeing the same trends in schools here - the 'feel good' and 'self-esteem' syndrome, the substitution of solid academic content for indoctrination, etc. At least by reading these books, I'll know what exactly is going on in those schools and how to prepare myself in case my kid ends up in one of them."

Awesome!  You're keeping ahead of these clowns - they all follow the same template.  Once you know that and understand that, they cannot defeat you.  They can defeat 99% of the other people, but not you.  So I need to warn you - you will be looked at as a total nutcase over there (it's bad enough here, but you guys are still decades behind us in the race to the bottom, so people there still respect schools).  You cannot, ever, let that get to you.  You also should not talk much about what you know, because you'll find yourself out of friends very quickly.  Nope...you're just a concerned parent with some spare time to help your children.

I remember the beginning of the self-esteem movement here very well.  Dr. Sowell used to always say: "Look at those thugs on the corner, the way they act, the sneakers they wear.  Do they look depressed and lacking self-esteem?  Heck no, they have plenty of it - all unearned, but plenty of it"  There never was a "self-esteem" problem with kids, but it was a great way for the education system to excuse failure.  After all, who wants to hurt a kid's self-esteem.

[Robert Levy]

Hi again Nee1,

I'm reading the first link you posted and they pretty much spelled out why David got so far ahead:

"American mothers estimated that on weekdays their first-graders spent  an average of 14 minutes a day on  homework;  the  daily average for Chinese first- graders was  77  minutes,  and for Japanese, 37  minutes."

My first response, to myself was "I guess this is the difference".  And it really is.  The question being when a kid gets home at 3:30 in the afternoon, and does not go to bed for another 5 to 6 hours, is taking 2 hours or so of that time to actually educate him all that bad?  Or should that time be spent watching TV or playing video games?

"For fifth- graders, the  estimate for the American children was 46  minutes a day..."

I also noticed this.  As David moved up in grade level, he would get homework, but much of it was simply useless.  It was art projects and science projects.  The damn things took a lot of time, and most of the time I would do it myself (and pretty lousy, by the way).  They accomplished nothing, but I suspect they were meant to "keep the kids occupied" or something.  In any case, I bring this up because at the younger ages, before, probably 4th grade, kids have a boatload of free time, during which they can learn reading and math, as David did.  But as they get older, if they're in just about any school, they will start getting hit-up with "busy-work" which will really cut down on that time.

[A_BC]

Thanks a lot for your response. I can see his hobby is still related to learning. Enjoying programming at 8 is impressive as most children at that age would spend their time on video games. Programming looks like just the right alternative to this unwanted behavior. It simply makes computer time more productive.

Now to define what "neighbor" is in our case, I'd say it's just at the city level. Sorry if my PS was a bit ambiguous. The reason I mentioned that was because I read about the community college hints with big interest. Sharing how you worked with the educational system in Texas helped me shape my vision. Even though my son may take a different path from yours, I know at least that there are ways to accommodate his educational needs. BTW, he loves math and we are doing simple addition and subtraction using RightStart Math and other programs and manipulatives (especially dominoes). Still a long way to go and we are progressing slowly, but what matters the most to me is to make math part of his daily life, sth that he will do naturally... Well, I hope so!

[Mandabplus3]

You know I am not game to read any of those books! I work in education, I see it every day. If I read anymore I might just quit, give up and teach my kids gardening instead!
In all fairness Australia isn't as bad as other places. My kids get a good education, not good enough for me but EVERY kid in their year can read at least. I also pay for private schooling for a reason. Same one as you did Robert. Yes there are all types in the world but that doesn't mean I want my kids mixing with them! I choose my friends wisely ( and my work environment for that matter) and I expect my kids to choose their friends wisely too. I will help them learn to do that by paying to get a better melting pot to choose from. To ensure you all know I am not racist both of my girls have "coloured"  best friends. It's not the ethnicity I am avoiding, it's mostly the parents empossed attitudes towards education and self discipline.
Sadly I can clearly see many of the people I work with would be better teachers with more training and flexibility with reporting. I think the training they get is pathetic at best. Any of the good teachers do their research elsewhere OUTSIDE of their degree. ( places like here are a great start  )
Anyway, yep I have the iPod covered. I know exactly how to use them and she hasn't asked for a touch ( although that's probably what I will buy her) we have no concerns about her having access to the wifi, she is honest and good right to the heart. And too busy to waste time online anyway. Now the second child? Well it'll be years before she gets access to the wifi! 

[nee1]

Thanks for the insights, Robert, especially the one on homework. Like you,  I believe in real solid academic work, not busy work. And I also strongly believe that a parent should be in charge of his/her child's education, whether the kids are enrolled in school or not. Don't leave it entirely to the schools, you may be shocked at the outcome. Most parents, when advised to read aloud to their kids and teach them stuff at home, ask  'what is the job of the schools then?’ and refuse to do it.  Soon, the kids start having problems in school and start failing. The parents now start undertaking remedial work to get the kids to catch up. Oh well. I wish that had been done from the start, it would have saved the poor kids so much trauma. Dr Richard Gentry, an expert on childhood literacy makes the same point in his blog article titled 'A Lack of Parent Engagement Helps Create Failing Schools'. Link -  http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/raising-readers-writers-and-spellers/201107/lack-parent-engagement-helps-create-failing-schools.

And yes, I like your attitude that study time is study time, not play time. Once you finish with your work, you can go and play. My son is very young, and I use the same approach with him. Why? Because I’m trying to inculcate good habits of perseverance and concentration when working. Don’t confuse work with play, son. We work, and if you can sit still, we’ll finish the work in very little time, and you’ll have the rest of the day to play. Especially in this era of ADHD, it is very important for a child to be able to sit still for several minutes or even hours to do work.

Below is an excerpt from 'Dumbing Down our Kids - Why American Children Feel Good about Them but Can't Read, Write or Add' by Charles Sykes.
Sykes quotes extensively from Harold Stevenson’s cross-cultural studies and here is an excerpt from pages 296 – 297.

``In his cross-cultural studies of schools in the United States, Japan, and China, researcher Harold Stevenson attributed significant differences in achievement levels not simply to differing approaches to schooling, but  also to the very different approaches to their children's education by Asian  and American parents. "Chinese and Japanese children know that they  will have free time only after they have completed the day's schoolwork," he found. "In American families, leisure activities and schoolwork compete for the child's time (17)." American parents do not like what they regard as excessive homework and frequently express distaste for schoolwork if it interferes with other activities they think should be given equal or even  greater value.

The implications of this attitude are considerable. "Daily lessons cannot be mastered without review and practice," noted Stevenson, "and American students cannot gain this experience as long as teachers are reluctant to increase the amount of homework and parents and children hold unfavorable views about its value.(18)".  But the attitude about homework is merely one reflection of the different emphases Asian and American parents place on education. Americans, for instance, place heavy stress on preschool education, and American parents seem to be deeply involved in making sure their children get a reasonable head start. In contrast, Asian parents regard children under the age of six as enjoying an "age of innocence" and do not push younger children much at all. While nine of ten American mothers of kindergartners teach their children the alphabet at home, fewer than a third of Japanese and Chinese mothers teach symbols to their preschoolers. Only 36 percent of Japanese mothers teach numbers to their preschoolers, in sharp contrast to the 90 percent of American mothers who teach their preschool children numbers (19).  To an observer unversed in the cultural differences, it might appear that it is the American families that value education more highly, while their Asian counterparts pursue a far more casual and relaxed approach to learning.


But when children turn six and enter first grade, there is a dramatic change. For the Japanese and Chinese parents, the age of innocence is replaced by the "age of reason," when a child enters elementary school. Parents who were previously "nurturant and permissive become authorities who demand obedience, respect, and adherence to their rules and goals (20) ". From their laissez-faire attitude toward education, Asian parents now become intensely involved with their children, helping and monitoring homework and providing a home environment in which schoolwork unquestionably is the highest priority.

At the same moment, however, that Asian parents are becoming more deeply involved with their children's education, American parents ironically are withdrawing. When a child turns six in Japan, his schooling becomes a parent's top responsibility; when a child turns six in the United States, parents tend to entrust their educational future to the schools and to his teachers (21).  Japanese parents see the task of learning just beginning at the same moment that American parents see their job as coming more or less to an end. For too many Americans, Stevenson found, "schoolwork is considered to be the responsibility of teachers and students, rather than a major concern for parents." In this country, the beginning of elementary school is "not accompanied by strong parental demands for academic excellence or devotion to homework and demands do not increase much during the succeeding years of elementary school (22)".

This perhaps explains the story one mother told me as I was working on this book: She had attended a parents meeting at her child's elementary school. At the meeting some of the other parents complained that their children were being given too much homework and that it was interfering with their sports, and even cutting into the time they had for watching, television. Other mothers admitted-apparently without embarrassment-that they had done their children's homework for them, to spare them both time and anxiety. The assumption that seemed to dominate the parents' meeting, the mother said, was that schoolwork had become a distraction from things that many of the parents believed to be the main business of a child's life. They were not concerned that their children were not learning-they were annoyed because expectations were too high. Their views were probably not representative either of a majority of parents at the woman's school nor did they reflect the attitude of most American parents. But they are undoubtedly widespread; most  teachers can tell stories of parents who complained about excessive homework, low marks, high standards.

Unless American parents raise those expectations, it is unlikely that America's schools will ever raise them unilaterally. Mediocrity, unfortunately, is contagious. But so is excellence. ‘’ QUOTE ENDS.

[Robert Levy]

To A_BC,

"I can see his hobby is still related to learning. Enjoying programming at 8 is impressive as most children at that age would spend their time on video games.  Programming looks like just the right alternative to this unwanted behavior. It simply makes computer time more productive."

Yes, and to be honest, it seems to be a push for him between programming and video games - he loves both.  But he's impressed some real hard-hitters with his programming (i.e., he's good at it and may start his career there, rather than in engineering).  He just loves computers.


"Now to define what "neighbor" is in our case, I'd say it's just at the city level."

Ok, thanks.  It wouldn't be fair if you knew me personally, but I didn't know who you were.  Being a non-acquaintance on these terms is fine with me.


"The reason I mentioned that was because I read about the community college hints with big interest. Sharing how you worked with the educational system in Texas helped me shape my vision."

Yes, it's doable.  The Community Colleges here like having advanced kids.  But, unfortunately, the kid who followed David, at his school, was a bit full of himself, from what I've heard.  So the person there who went out of her way for both David and his successor is going to be more careful (and selective) in the future.  As I've said before, there's a good reason why I (figuratively) beat it into him that he was nothing special, instead just a kid who started early.  It's critical that any kid in his situation understand it.  But yes (to all of you out there) he does know he's special - once in a while I'll show him an article about a kid starting college at Age 14 (for example) and we'll both laugh and call him a "slacker" and wonder why they're wasting ink on him (since David started at 11).  It's a lot of fun.  I got him to the point where he can have fun making jokes about others, but never in a situation where it might hurt them (and thus hurt or embarrass himself).


"Even though my son may take a different path from yours, I know at least that there are ways to accommodate his educational needs."

There are, but always remember they, the college, is doing you the favor.  It's a lot easier to get arrogant and say that "My kid is special !!!"   Well guess what - to a parent EVERY kid is special, and teachers and others have heard it over and over again.  In one of David's classes when he was young (before college), my wife politely asked the teacher to try to give David some work that would challenge him, rather than grade-level work.  The teacher basically told her to shove it.  She was upset, and I told her exactly what I just wrote, above.  The teacher likely had heard it all from parents and was not about to get pushed around by another doting parent.  I told my wife to forget it.  Needless to say, my wife was right, and a week later a freaked-out teacher was very nice to her (after getting to know David).   In another case, at the Community College, David wiped out on some stairs and broke some teeth.  It was slippery, he was in a hurry to get to class, and he had a heavy backpack on.   We asked for the police report - they hesitated on giving to us, because they thought we'd sue them.  Heck, I was afraid he'd be kicked out of school there for being too little to navigate the campus (at that time he was very small for his age...now he's normal sized).  I promised them it was just for insurance and they were relieved.  How the heck could I think of suing them, after what they did for him?   But their fear was understandable - but as parents, we have to do everything possible for the school to feel comfortable with our little guys.  Remember, it is much, much, easier for them to say "sorry, too young".


"BTW, he loves math and we are doing simple addition and subtraction using RightStart Math and other programs and manipulatives (especially dominoes). Still a long way to go and we are progressing slowly, but what matters the most to me is to make math part of his daily life, sth that he will do naturally... Well, I hope so!""

No comment on that curriculum, either way.  I've posted my approach.  The only thing to remember is that math is not something a little kid runs into much, outside of an academic environment, so the learning must be maintained there.  Reading is just the opposite - it's everywhere.

[Robert Levy]

To Mandabplus3,

“You know I am not game to read any of those books! I work in education, I see it every day. If I read anymore I might just quit, give up and teach my kids gardening instead!”
So you’re already there.  I agree – no need for the books.  The books are more for people who need some support, because going against “the system” is not a lot different than that guy in Tiananmen Square who stood in front of the tank.  You know that you’re putting everything you have on the line, so you need to be ready to make your case.  But if you’re there, already, then no problem.

“In all fairness Australia isn't as bad as other places. My kids get a good education, not good enough for me but EVERY kid in their year can read at least.”
That is impressive.  Being able to read seems to be an afterthought now in our system.

“ I also pay for private schooling for a reason. Same one as you did Robert.”
Yep, you must fill in the holes, and do it before the kid is behind.  You are doing great here.

“ Yes there are all types in the world but that doesn't mean I want my kids mixing with them! I choose my friends wisely ( and my work environment for that matter) and I expect my kids to choose their friends wisely too. I will help them learn to do that by paying to get a better melting pot to choose from. To ensure you all know I am not racist both of my girls have "coloured"  best friends. It's not the ethnicity I am avoiding, it's mostly the parents empossed attitudes towards education and self discipline.”
I doubt anyone on this site has any problems with anyone based on skin color.  Obviously that’s not the point.  There are plenty of crappy white people and there are plenty of very classy blacks, Hispanics, etc.  We (thankfully) still get to choose who we associate with – there really isn’t a reason for any of us to force our kids to associate with drug dealers and other losers…just to be able to say that they understand ‘diversity’.

“Sadly I can clearly see many of the people I work with would be better teachers with more training and flexibility with reporting. I think the training they get is pathetic at best.”
That’s only part of it.  The biggest problem, at least here, is that they are “education” majors.  They chose education because they hated math, and probably hated science too.  Yet they are forced to teach it.  It would be unreasonable to expect decent results from people that hate what they’re doing (at least regarding math, and probably science).  One must take that into account when you put your precious child on that big yellow bus.

“ Any of the good teachers do their research elsewhere OUTSIDE of their degree. ( places like here are a great start  big grin)”
Yes, but at least here, they have zero interest in us.  They are absolutely convinced that they know everything necessary to ‘educate’ a child.  Dr. Sowell makes that quite clear.  The ones that actually do a good job are either about to retire or about to get fired.  The system is rigged against them, and it gets worse, almost by the day (with the latest being the “Common Core Curriculum”, that nearly all schools will adopt).

“Anyway, yep I have the iPod covered.  we have no concerns about her having access to the wifi, she is honest and good right to the heart.”
Sorry, but that worries me.  When my kid spent a college semester playing video games, rather than studying, to the point of lying to me about never get his crappy test scores back and nearly flunking out of school  (he had complained and complained that we didn’t give him enough freedom, and we didn’t trust him – so we let him go that semester), I didn’t get mad at him, I just explained to him that he was powerless to prevent the people that designed these games from taking over his brain.  They are experts at it.  There was absolutely nothing he could do.  It was, literally, no different from heroin. 
Do not ever think that you come first, because you don’t.  Facebook will always win.  Video games will always win.  Now, as I said at the beginning, you paid nothing for my advice, and you are welcome to ignore me (or get mad at me) – but I will give my advice (for others, at least) based on exactly what I’ve experienced, and it was rough because it dragged down his GPA and I never had a chance to do anything about it (i.e., I had no clue since I was lied to – the only time).  So when she goes to bed with the IPOD in her hands, it might be a good idea to shut off the wifi, or better yet, to have that IPOD in your possession.

“ And too busy to waste time online anyway. Now the second child? Well it'll be years before she gets access to the wifi!  LOL”
Now that one I can agree with.

[Robert Levy]

To Nee1,

“Thanks for the insights, Robert, especially the one on homework. Like you,  I believe in real solid academic work, not busy work. And I also strongly believe that a parent should be in charge of his/her child's education, whether the kids are enrolled in school or not. Don't leave it entirely to the schools, you may be shocked at the outcome.”
You're welcome.  Later on you have a quote from Sykes that mentions parents doing their kid’s homework.  Well guess what – if my kid could get another section of Saxon Math done in lieu of doing some useless homework project, guess who does the math and guess who does the ‘project’.  I’ll make the call as to whether the homework is helping my kid, and if it’s not, I’ll do it for him.  To do otherwise is to have blind faith in the same teachers that are part of this country’s decline.  To me, that’s part of taking charge of your kid’s education.

“Most parents, when advised to read aloud to their kids and teach them stuff at home, ask  'what is the job of the schools then?’ and refuse to do it.  Soon, the kids start having problems in school and start failing.  The parents now start undertaking remedial work to get the kids to catch up.”
So true, but here’s the fallacy:  You have to learn the code words.  When a teacher asks for parents to “be involved” at least these days, it means that they expect the parent to teach the material to the kid, because the teacher (for whatever reason) is not doing so.  If parents understood that, there would a lot less kids that are “behind”.  So yes, I suspect that something like 80% of the kids that are “having problems” learning are only having the problems because they are neither being taught in school, nor taught at home.  Asian (including Indian) parents figured this out long ago and thus have zero expectations for their schools and, instead, take care of getting their kids educated outside of school.  That is the primary reason they do so well (having higher than average IQs helps too, but the kids still need an education, somewhere).

“ Oh well. I wish that had been done from the start, it would have saved the poor kids so much trauma.”
Precisely, and you hit my biggest fear as a parent.  I was scared to death of my kid getting behind – because I know what that’s like and it’s not fun and it take probably 10 times as much effort to catch back up, as it would have taken just to keep up.  Parents must, never, ever, let their kids fall behind.  But don’t take this personal – because there are very few people in this country that will tell you that your kid is almost certain to fall behind if he doesn’t get educated outside of what we call “school”.

“ Dr Richard Gentry, an expert on childhood literacy makes the same point in his blog article titled 'A Lack of Parent Engagement Helps Create Failing Schools'.”
I have mixed feelings on this.  I think we spend more than enough money on education such that parents should not have to do anything.  But that is not the case, as I’ve mentioned in the earlier post.  I also have trouble understanding how “parental engagement” can overcome curricula that is design to fail the kids.  The only way parental engagement can work is if parents take the approach that I took, and that home schoolers take, which is to assume that no one, other than them, will be educating their kids – because they are about 80% right if they believe that.

“And yes, I like your attitude that study time is study time, not play time. Once you finish with your work, you can go and play. My son is very young, and I use the same approach with him. Why? Because I’m trying to inculcate good habits of perseverance and concentration when working. Don’t confuse work with play, son. We work, and if you can sit still, we’ll finish the work in very little time, and you’ll have the rest of the day to play. Especially in this era of ADHD, it is very important for a child to be able to sit still for several minutes or even hours to do work.”
Sounds good there.  If you have the priorities right, your kids will get the education they need, and will still have a good deal of free time.  It just has to be set up right.  If the kid is running around playing all afternoon (not that they do that anymore, but hypothetically), it’s not really fair to hit up with two rounds of Saxon in the evening.  In other words, do the math first, then the other stuff.
 
" American parents do not like what they regard as excessive homework and frequently express distaste for schoolwork if it interferes with other activities they think should be given equal or even  greater value.
Homework aside, I even see Saxon parents trading off things like dancing and figure skating against learning math.  That is the right of the parents, but, in my opinion, they’re taking some risk.  Not knowing how to dance will not cripple a kid’s future (as I can attest to), but not knowing reading and math will.  It makes me cringe.  I was teaching reading to some 4 year old friends of David.  But they couldn’t make it over much, because of other things, like violin (believe it or not) and gymnastics.  They never had a chance to match David…and only because of that (they were actually smarter than him).

“Asian parents regard children under the age of six as enjoying an "age of innocence"…But when children turn six and enter first grade, there is a dramatic change. For the Japanese and Chinese parents, the age of innocence is replaced by the "age of reason," when a child enters elementary school. Parents who were previously "nurturant and permissive become authorities who demand obedience, respect, and adherence to their rules and goals (20) ".
This was interesting.  One of the things that confused me, believe it or not, was why David was able to run circles not just around American kids (which doesn’t take much), but around kids all over the world.  This helps explain it.  By the time David was 6 years old, he was reading at an adult level and was years and years ahead in math.  I had him learning during those 2.5 years, from Age 3.5 until Age 6, while Asian countries don’t do that.   Good to know.

“For too many Americans, Stevenson found, "schoolwork is considered to be the responsibility of teachers and students, rather than a major concern for parents."
That’s it.  Put junior on that big, yellow, bus and never have to worry about him.  That may have worked 40 years ago, but the schools are run and taught by a different bunch now.

“This perhaps explains the story one mother told me as I was working on this book: She had attended a parents meeting at her child's elementary school. At the meeting some of the other parents complained that their children were being given too much homework and that it was interfering with their sports, and even cutting into the time they had for watching, television.”
Look at this as an opportunity – if parents have this attitude, then it’s that much easier for your kids to get a high score on the SAT or Medical Board Exam, since they grade on a curve.  Don’t worry about other parents, and certainly don’t let their problems bring your kids down.

“Other mothers admitted-apparently without embarrassment-that they had done their children's homework for them, to spare them both time and anxiety.”}
I freely admit that too.  If the homework is useless, and my kid could otherwise be learning, then I did his homework.

Bottom line here – none of this matters when one takes the education of their kids into their own hands.

[Mandabplus3]

I wont  ignore you, or get mad at your advice. I like to keep an open mind. For this kid at this time I have no concerns but I am not stupid or nieve and I know at some point in the future the lure of Facebook will win out. College is a few years off but puberty isn't nearly far enough away! I will take the warning and remember the wise words of Robert 
For the record she is getting her 2 lessons a day done no problem. Some days she does more. It is eating into her reading time. But to be honest she can't get much better at that anyway. The reading time is just for story exposure and we still find some time each day to read the classics together, just a bit less time than previously. I am happy with this trade off as I think math is more important to her, both now and long term.
We ( her and I) arnt prepared to drop the gymnastics as she is good enough to go all the way. Gymnastics is what makes her heart sing. So the math just has to fitin around it. She is too bright to just be a gymnastics coach for life so the math is to open other doors and opportunities.
it's been really great reading through and getting all the details of how and why you did it Robert. I shall probably refer back hear for years to come! Thanks

[MummyRoo]

When a teacher asks for parents to “be involved” at least these days, it means that they expect the parent to teach the material to the kid, because the teacher (for whatever reason) is not doing so.  If parents understood that, there would a lot less kids that are “behind”.  So yes, I suspect that something like 80% of the kids that are “having problems” learning are only having the problems because they are neither being taught in school, nor taught at home. 

This is so true! My brother is 11 and just started high school. His middle school was very good - they got top marks on all the government check-ups and they had a high percentage of kids doing really well. BUT my mum complained most weeks about one or more pieces of homework where he had to essentially learn the material at home to review in class time! Now, we live in a good area and most of the parents are bothered about their children's education (though the majority seem content to pay for after-school tutors and Kumon rather than sit down with the kids themselves). I am sure that is the sole reason that "teaching" in this way is of any use.

I am teaching my son to read, but I am not really worried about it. He is interested and even with little help should be reading long before he's due for school. There will always be material enough to encourage a nervous/lazy reader to challenge themselves (I seem to remember my other brother reading nothing but James Bond and computer manuals for a few years).

There is very little that will encourage a weak mathematician to become a strong one. The schools won't help - they teach twenty different ways to add up, not one of them being in any way efficient! That is something that really worries me. I tutor a little boy who is not great at maths. It would be immensely helpful if his parents would work with him to learn his times tables, but I guess that is what they want me for. What really bothers me is that he gets really nervous if I try to show him the (more efficient) way that I work out the sums. He spends most of the lesson trying to explain how he has been taught (and it is usually a different way each week), because he doesn't understand how to add in columns and won't try since he'll never need it at school!

Whether I send my son to school or not, he will be learning maths from me. I expect he will be many years ahead of his peers, who will spend the first term of school learning to add the numbers 1-5. I am determined that he will enjoy maths. I have been at a point were doing maths was painful. I was told by my maths teachers that I was useless and a failure. Three years out of school, I took a psychological test that told me I was actually very mathematically-minded and I re-learned my past enjoyment of maths. I am now capable to pre-university level and actually find complex algebra problems fun (much the same way others enjoy a crossword). I never want my son to go through that.

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